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[quote][i]Originally posted by bear[/i]
[br]I'm copying this from another thread for posterity so if you just read the wings, parents, etc thread, don't bother....

None of the affects are really all that attractive, except that they're necessary for our survival and the formation of a sense of self.  A lot of people in the attachment triad say that this theory doesn't resonate for them because they never felt attached to their parents, or put a positive spin on their relationship, etc.  We are all attached to our parents to a horrifying extent, whether we are aware of it or not.

The typical example of attachment is the person who is the child of an alcoholic and ends up marrying an alcoholic (or someone who's equally abusive or neglectful).  It's a maintenance of the status quo.  So that person can be furious and hate the parent, but still be attached in that there is an object relationship they are maintaining.  It is better to have the bad parent than no parent at all, is the way the deeply held egoic beliefs work.  We all do this, and if you think you don't, you just haven't looked closely enough.

I remember once I was talking about my relationships with a couple of boyfriends with my therapist and she said, "they both sound a lot like your father."  I said, "Whaaaaa?"  I didn't see that at all - they couldn't be more different than my father in my mind.  In fact, what I thought I really liked about them was how different they were from my father.  Then she pointed out that I could run intellectual rings around both of them (like I could my father), they were mostly uninterested in truly knowing me (like my father) and had little to offer me that I wanted (like my father).  So they were sweet and gentle and interesting to me unlike my father, but the underlying way they made me feel is exactly the way my father did.

I just realized that this story really illustrates how we keep the OR active but not necessarily the affect of the OR.  It seems this is what attachment is but I might be confused about it.  This is the best I can do (maybe Brian will come along and explain anything I may be distorting)...

1.  the frustration with father plays out as some variation on will.  Father is not willing things into being the right way so I'm going to have to take that over.
2. the rejection of father is... [edit] I always get stumped on this one.  I still don't have a good handle on this.  I just found this at http://www.enneagram-ohio.com/type2.htm (an interesting site I've never seen before) that seems to get at how the OR plays out...
[i] It is surprising how many Twos lost their fathers at an early age to death, divorce, or a job requiring frequent travel or long days and nights away from home. Often blaming themselves for losing that key relationship due to their own failings, they unconsciously set out to become indispensable to whomever they believe could provide for their needs. Inside every Two is a child feeling envious that the other kids get what they want. [/i]
(I'll note that the 2s perception is skewed to see an absent father, even when the father is present). 
3. the attachment to mother is a way of playing out the good mother for everyone else - I'm going to do and be all the things mother likes me to do and be*
4. the frustration with both is that everything good is being held outside of me and I can't quite get to it, therefore am envious (making constant inner comparisons)
5. the rejection of both is that no one is giving me anything I need so I'm going to have to hunker down and reduce my needs because I'm not getting the goods from anywhere
6. the attachment to father is a way of shoring up a sense of security - hence the push/pull with authority - some need to provide or find a sense of security
7. the frustration with mother is where that arid sense about 7s comes from - mother's got it (the world's got it) hidden somewhere and I'm going to look look look look look until I find it
8. the rejection with mother is the sense that she doesn't have what I want so I'm going to have to get it myself.  She doesn't provide, so I must.
9. the attachment to both is the heart of inertia - everything's OK the way it is and I'm not going to rock the boat.  They're giving me as much as they've got and I'm not worthy of any more than that.

* keep in mind you could reject what mother wants consciously but have some other way of carrying her values around.  For ex, I have a 3 friend in my Diamond Heart group whose parents had wanted to be a priest and a nun earlier in life.  While she rejected her Catholic 
heritage, she also is driven to become the best little spiritual student there is, thereby fulfilling her parents' unrealized desires.

[/quote]

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Shinobi Shaw	Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 4:14:16 PM Can someone elaborate on the parental orientation of each type, for example there is E3-6-9 wich all have attachment with either or both nurturing and protective figure. Other types have frustration with parents and other REJECTION? What exactly does it all mean? 3w4 so/sp/sx or 7w8 sp/sx/so ENTJ
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
tacoeatingzebra	Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 10:11:01 AM quote: of course, etypes are pure, untainted extremes, and people are not. so parental orientation as established by e-theory is an insufficient means of learning your type. quote: yes! my wife is 4w3 and she friggin' loves some momma & daddy. i think the five parental orientation thing fits me more with my father and the three parental orientation fits me more with my mother... now i am pretty poor at mathematics, but i think that averages out to 4 so... uh... hmmm... INFP 4w5 soc/sex
thesingularsensation	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 7:04:40 PM so you're going to continue to seek the truth in methods which are oft worthless because why? they're ready-made and pop-psychologist approved? because they're easy? because they're the quickest route to a truth? why the rush to place a number by your name? flannery o'connor (n): 1925-1964; faulkner's bitch.
Shinobi Shaw	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 6:56:14 PM Because as you can see from the Ever-Changing thread, no matter how much analyzation, introspection I do....in the end I just feel lost and utterly frustrated. It's like I have done so much analyzation that it's hopeless, I feel like none of the types fit me but yet I am obsessed about searching and finding the truth. The truth is elusive it seems and just when I thought I found it...I find that I haven't really found it at all...the truth keeps running away from me. ENTj - SP/SX/SO
thesingularsensation	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 6:48:48 PM you don't have a choice? that's silly. one always has choices. he or she may choose to preemptively close them. but they're always there. why do you think you don't have a choice? flannery o'connor (n): 1925-1964; faulkner's bitch.
Shinobi Shaw	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 6:46:13 PM I agree, thesingularsensation but at this point in time..I don't have that much choice. But what you say is sound. quote: Originally posted by FOURtuitous Originally posted by Shinobi Shaw: quote: But I have to say I can't feel but dissapointed in her, she was great as a parent, but as I was coming to adulthood (and now at 23) I can't help feel dissapointment in that she has not lived up to my expectations and ideal. Hi, Shinobi, the words in bold struck me for some reason. Would you expand on what you mean by this? Ennea 4w5/INFJ I idealized my mother as a child but at the same time I had a pent up frustration with her because she limited my choices, my father was this detached figure whom I had incredible indifference towards to. As a result of this indifference towards my father I looked up to my mother as not only a nurturing figure but ALSO a protective figure. But since she was a nurturer (giver) and a protective figure (limiter) and always has (till this day) plus our different outlooks of life, my relantionship with her that I love her but I feel utter frustration with her, because apart from loving her I also seem to detest her. So my relation with my father has always been as "Detached figure" and my mother as "protective/nurturing figure" whom I feel frustrated with. ENTj - SP/SX/SO
thesingularsensation	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 6:34:33 PM of course, etypes are pure, untainted extremes, and people are not. so parental orientation as established by e-theory is an insufficient means of learning your type. learn how types manifest in real life. type accordingly. a small piece of sentence in a book is not going to turn you onto the golden path. flannery o'connor (n): 1925-1964; faulkner's bitch.
Gayle EI Faculty	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 6:03:58 PM Hi Everyone. Gayle here. I�m on the EI faculty with Brian. Brian is away for a while, so I thought I�d pop in. I�m also in the Diamond Heart school -- as is Bear, I see. This has been a very interesting thread on Object Relations. Much curiosity and compassionate insight in your posts. Something that Brian and others have mentioned, and that I feel can�t be overemphasized, is the understanding that our OR patterns, which are E-type specific, are activated and patterned when we are infants and young babies � long before we have a child�s or adolescent�s view of our parents as individual people with a history and many endearing/annoying/wounded/ defective/narcissistic personality traits. To the infant, my world consists of awareness of my basic instinctual needs and how well they are/aren�t being met by this big, warm, soft object that miraculously appears when I�m hungry to satiate me, and when I�m cold and wet to dry and warm me, etc. It is in the first 2 � to 3 years that our patterns and responses and expectations are indelibly laid down, after which we habitually project that reality � that program � onto our developing world. As infants, we are totally dependent on our parents/caregivers for our survival, and we are also wholly and madly in love with them � regardless of how we come to view them at a more mature stage. The early breaks / traumas / inadequacies / inconsistencies / lack of attunement in mothering/nurturing that we experience, trigger the particular Ennea-specific OR we are programmed to develop. Each type is hard-wired and particularly attuned and sensitive to be impacted in specific ways to these early events/traumas. For instance, let�s take the common scenario in the development of a baby (let�s call her Rose) of the cessation of breastfeeding � perhaps even a new sibling coming along when Rose is still contentedly breastfeeding. So for a while Rose is being properly spoiled -- getting all of her parents� love, care and attention � however imperfect it may be � and feels the rightful owner of the warm, all-satisfying breast. Then one day, instead of the breast, Rose gets this cold rubber thing stuck in her mouth, Mom isn�t there as often or consistently as she used to be, she takes longer to respond to my cries, seems more agitated, distracted, and I�m getting fewer adoring looks, less holding and cuddle time. What�s up with that?!? Suddenly something�s bad or missing or not quite right or not good enough any more.javascript:insertsmilie('') This or something similar happens to all children repeatedly, but each E temperament will respond in different ways. If Rose happens to be a Seven, her (unconscious and infantile) patterning response is along the lines of, �Hey, everything was really yummy and wonderful here � just the way I like it -- and now I�m feeling deprived. I�m afraid Mom isn�t giving me all the goodies I�m accustomed to anymore, and I really want and need those goodies. What to do? Well I'm pro-active and resourceful, I�ll have to learn how to go out and get my own goodies, satisfy my needs for nurturing and pleasure and stimulation and satiation, support my own adorableness, because I don't like this feeling of being trapped in deprivation. So out of my way, cuz I'm gonna get what I need (want).javascript:insertsmilie('') An Eight Rose would be enraged. I was doing okay and then somebody messed with me -- they betrayed me. Mom hates me! Well, who needs it? (Rejection). What to do? I�m strong, I can take care of business � I don�t need all that soft mooshy stuff anyway. But nobody�s gonna get the chance to mess with me that way again. Just let �em try!javascript:insertsmilie('') A Nine Rose might also be angry, but -- everything used to be so nice, I don�t want to risk upsetting Mommy and Daddy and make them abandon me, so I won�t complain about it or appear needy. Mommy and Daddy love me, and what I�m getting is good enough for little ol�me anyway, so why rock the boat?javascript:insertsmilie('') Of course all of this goes on subconsciously, but each disruptive/traumatic event in the child�s life adds to the cumulation of experience that increases and intensifies the OR pattern. We continue to have the same responses to events. The more neglectful/incompetent/ abusive our parents are, the more pronounced the pattern becomes and the more entrenched and defensive we become. But it's important to know that even the most caring, consistent, well-intentioned parents will inadvertently and repeatedly do things that disrupt the child�s sense of nurturing and attunement, which instigates the formation of our OR and ego self. That�s a big part of how we develop a sense of self and learn to cope with the world. What do you suppose the reactions of the other types of Roses might be?javascript:insertsmilie('')
Shinobi Shaw	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 4:32:42 PM Nothing to see here, move it along.
oceanlife	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 4:30:29 PM remember my boundaries are nil so....I will usually answer. I actually see getting personal as getting real.
FOURtuitous	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 4:13:37 PM quote: Originally posted by oceanlife quote: Originally posted by FOURtuitous I know you have mentioned your dad dying prematurely quite a bit Ocean. You seem to have a lot of unfinished business where he is concerned. Were you able to fully grieve his loss as a child? Ennea 4w5/INFJ I know I reference it alot...I'm sorry if it gets annoying. No I'm sure I didn't. It threw me into a social spin of debauchery and avoidance. I grieve bit by bit now as time goes on each time I write and dream. Not annoying at all. It just sticks out because you have mentioned it a few times. After I wrote that I thought...'hmmm. maybe I shouldn't go there. I tend to get a little too personal'. Sorry if I did. Ennea 4w5/INFJ
oceanlife	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 2:44:01 PM quote: Originally posted by FOURtuitous I know you have mentioned your dad dying prematurely quite a bit Ocean. You seem to have a lot of unfinished business where he is concerned. Were you able to fully grieve his loss as a child? Ennea 4w5/INFJ I know I reference it alot...I'm sorry if it gets annoying. No I'm sure I didn't. It threw me into a social spin of debauchery and avoidance. I grieve bit by bit now as time goes on each time I write and dream.
oceanlife	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 2:42:06 PM quote: Originally posted by tacoeatingzebra sometimes i think people who view their parents in an idealized light have the hardest time coping with ambiguity. INFP 4w5 soc/sex that may be correct in that in idealization one never feels like they really know the hard truth. So in ambiguity, it throws them even more.
tacoeatingzebra	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 2:38:35 PM sometimes i think people who view their parents in an idealized light have the hardest time coping with ambiguity. INFP 4w5 soc/sex
Stormy	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 1:28:04 PM quote: Originally posted by FOURtuitous So from a personal perspective, Stormy, was your father arbitrary in how he dealt out discipline etc? If he was, it was all my own fault. - - Stormy [6w5]
FOURtuitous	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 1:17:04 PM quote: Originally posted by oceanlife good point about wanting and having. I don't want a connection with mom. But I probably have one. I want a connection with my dad who's gone so I can't. I never had one with him, it didn't have time to develop as much as I wanted. Though it did develop somewhat. I have learned to not want one with dad because it's impossible. I know you have mentioned your dad dying prematurely quite a bit Ocean. You seem to have a lot of unfinished business where he is concerned. Were you able to fully grieve his loss as a child? Ennea 4w5/INFJ
oceanlife	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 1:07:43 PM good point about wanting and having. I don't want a connection with mom. But I probably have one. I want a connection with my dad who's gone so I can't. I never had one with him, it didn't have time to develop as much as I wanted. Though it did develop somewhat. I have learned to not want one with dad because it's impossible.
FOURtuitous	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 1:05:18 PM quote: Originally posted by Stormy quote: Originally posted by STYLe4mOtiOn I'm seeing all kinds of attachment theories, whereunder the 6 with 'attachment father' -- the 6 distrusts authority, so it's more likely frustration with the father. E6s distrust arbitrary authority, a standard which is arguably measured in relation to their father-figures. - Stormy [6w5] So from a personal perspective, Stormy, was your father arbitrary in how he dealt out discipline etc? Ennea 4w5/INFJ
FOURtuitous	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 1:03:26 PM Posted by Style4Motion: quote: My mother is an INFJ 9 and has rejection from mother (she hates her; her mother was the manipulative, egotistical figure, and that's not just my mother's subjective view...) and frustration with father (she always wanted a connection but never got it); so attachment with both is a no-no. I do believe that maybe the 9 wants that attachment with both parents (the 9 especially)? The Nine was attached to both parents. The Four was frustrated with both parents. According to what you are saying about your mom's relationship to her parents, she should technically be a Four. Ennea 4w5/INFJ
Stormy	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 12:58:19 PM quote: Originally posted by STYLe4mOtiOn I'm seeing all kinds of attachment theories, whereunder the 6 with 'attachment father' -- the 6 distrusts authority, so it's more likely frustration with the father. E6s distrust arbitrary authority, a standard which is arguably measured in relation to their father-figures. - Stormy [6w5]
STYLe4mOtiOn	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 12:37:55 PM quote: Originally posted by Brian, EI Faculty Briefly, in Object Relations (our very early relationships with caregivers in which we build our sense of self in relation to sense of other) there are three main affects. Think of infant needs and varying response of parental figures to those needs. Attachment-I'm getting my needs met, keep it coming, I'm holding on to this. Frustration- It isn't quite right (milk isn't coming fast enough) I have to do something to make it right, including doing it myself. I keep going after it, not giving up. Rejection- I'm not getting it. I won't get it. I give up. I hate e.g. Mommy for not giving it to me but that's too dangerous so I project that Mommy hates/rejects me. All types /people have all three. What is most striking and impactful in our psychology has more to do with our type�s perceptual biases then the objective reality of the parenting we received. Threes strong orientation is attachment to maternal holding pattern (nurturing, feeding, mirroring etc.), that isn't always done by the mother. Sixes is attachment to the paternal holding pattern (guidance, safety, direction, protection), that isn't always done by the father. E.g. looking for the good "father". Nines is attachment to both holding patterns. Frustration: Ones to paternal- I'll have to be my own "father" because it just isn'[t quite right- too strict, too inconsistent. Sevens to maternal. I'll never go hungry again. Fours to both holding patterns. Looking for good mom and dad. Rejection: Two to paternal, Eights to maternal, Fives to both. So Eights may have trouble accepting or giving nurturing. It's not for me. I�ll be the rock to have a ticket back in even though I�ve been rejected. These affects are the fuels of the ego. The ego can�t run without them. So e.g. Ones, Fours, and Sevens run on frustration. Subjectively it may seem that things frustrate me but really I'm running on frustration and finding things to pin it on. Remember that all of us have all three to some extent. Hope this is helpful Brian EI faculty It's fitting that the Seven runs on frustration; I'm a seven and DEAR GOD! Frustration with the mother really (does that explain the 8 wing? not-yet-rejection), and I don't know about my dad. I think he's an idiot so I think it's rejection, although he provided me with all the things that were his duties (he's ISTJ). But there was never a connection, so that might be the thing I never got? I think my ISFJ sister is the opposite pattern: frustration for dad, rejection for mum. I was my mother's favourite -- I'm seeing all kinds of attachment theories, whereunder the 6 with 'attachment father' -- the 6 distrusts authority, so it's more likely frustration with the father. My ISTP (6w5 cp) father in law was badly rejected by his father. My ISTJ (6 phobic) had attachment or frustration with his father -- he says it's attachment, but I'm seeing frustration, and moreso an attachment with his mother. He's now married to an ESTJ 8w7 (split up parents, so dad remarried). My mother is an INFJ 9 and has rejection from mother (she hates her; her mother was the manipulative, egotistical figure, and that's not just my mother's subjective view...) and frustration with father (she always wanted a connection but never got it); so attachment with both is a no-no. I do believe that maybe the 9 wants that attachment with both parents (the 9 especially)? And the plot thickens.. "Hi, I'm innocent and love to give." "Well hello there, I'm protective and love to inspire." "Let's.." "Have.." "Uh-huh!" ENTP 7w8 sx/sp/so 'The Neophile'.. better yet, 'Borderliner with Superiority Complex'.. better yet, 'Interesting nutcase'. Obeys his dominance.
FOURtuitous	Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 12:32:19 PM Originally posted by Shinobi Shaw: quote: But I have to say I can't feel but dissapointed in her, she was great as a parent, but as I was coming to adulthood (and now at 23) I can't help feel dissapointment in that she has not lived up to my expectations and ideal. Hi, Shinobi, the words in bold struck me for some reason. Would you expand on what you mean by this? Ennea 4w5/INFJ
desert_me	Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 7:33:14 PM Well my mix of parenting was odd. Dad idealized me as a baby, until he fractured my skull twice (carelessness and violence). But especially when my brother came along, he became dismissive, cold and critical of me. Always looking for ways to lay down the law and find an excuse to punish (hit) us. He was very vain, ambitious and temperamental - I'm thinking unhealthy 3w4, ISTP or something. Either that or 8w9. Mum was fairly dependable until age 4, when she developed bipolar disorder. Then she was in and out of mental hospitals, ignoring me in a zombie haze when she was released. I reckon she's phobic 6w5, ISTJ. Very critical of me for anything I do "wrong" according to a conservative 1970's perspective. And anxious about my safety to the point of absurdity. I grew up very attached to my brother; we shared a powerful imaginary world which protected us from our parents some of the time. Also, we had grandparents, particularly a doting grandmother who gave us lots of attention, time and high praise. She's 2w3, ESFJ. Both of us ended up high achievers in school, but often broke down and rebelled against the high pressure to succeed, and to this day have severe self-doubt issues. Often I felt like an orphan, although both my parents were alive. I have been grappling with the sense that my grandmother owns me, that I am duty bound to fulfil her expectations, and guilty for having been such a spectacular failure. However, intellectually I go against bourgeois achievement, know its hollowness, believe in following happiness instead. And there is the relentless search for Daddy, in a certain type of older male who I get intense crushes on (unreciprocated)..... So there you have it.
Shinobi Shaw	Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 1:05:24 PM quote: Originally posted by Not2bforgot10 3's... Is there a chance that the opposite could be true and that 3's did NOT get ANY adequate support from their mother and/or were completely FRUSTRATED with their mothers b/c their mothers could not provide for them and therefore are in need of admiration and attention b/c of this?? Is this possible with a 3 or does this sound more 7-ish? A mother who could NOT be there for the child b/c she was too preoccupied with herself and/or off in her own world, with her own problems, causing the child to have to be on their own and causing the child to NEED a WOMAN'S love... is this a 3 thing or a 7 thing? 2w3 SX/SO/SP, XNFJ. It all depends, but keep in mind that these orientations are formed by the ego-self of the CHILD not you as a teen ect. You could be like me whom at childhood was attached to their nurturing figure (the mother) but as an adult you are frustrated with her and dissapointed. Then again 3s and 7s can mistype. 3w4 sp/sx/so ENTJ
Not2bforgot10	Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 12:58:06 PM My parents divorced when I was 6 (I was adopted btw at birth) and my mother completely rejected me and my siblings (my siblings were much older than I was). My dad was the one that took me in... I grew up with him. However, most of his time was spent running businesses (He owned two local bars). So... I spent my days alone. I rarely EVER saw my mother. When I did see her, it was H... she would ridule me, pick at me, STAND ME UP, everything imaginable... she was really unhealthy and REALLY unhappy (She's a 2 btw). Now in life I am continously* seeking a mother's love, or a motherly figure. I may even be gay because of this... not sure? But yeah. I am constantly trying to find someone who will listen to me, care for me, and understand me and provide me with everything my mom did not. As for a male... in my eyes, I don't need one. I had my father. Even though my father was always busy and rarely did I see him, I knew he loved me... I must admit though that it kinda screwed me up b/c he never provided any structure for me... I never had ANY structure growing up. I was a loose canon; I had to learn to structure everything on my OWN. Anywho, I was wanting to know what e-type all of this sounds like it could go with? And/or if anyone else can relate? 2w3 SX/SO/SP, XNFJ.
Not2bforgot10	Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 12:46:06 PM 3's... Is there a chance that the opposite could be true and that 3's did NOT get ANY adequate support from their mother and/or were completely FRUSTRATED with their mothers b/c their mothers could not provide for them and therefore are in need of admiration and attention b/c of this?? Is this possible with a 3 or does this sound more 7-ish? A mother who could NOT be there for the child b/c she was too preoccupied with herself and/or off in her own world, with her own problems, causing the child to have to be on their own and causing the child to NEED a WOMAN'S love... is this a 3 thing or a 7 thing? 2w3 SX/SO/SP, XNFJ.

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