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T O P I C R E V I E W
manda7panda
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 8:19:14 PM So about this seeming paradox where 9's want to be seen, yet fear it. Like on gorgeousboast's thread we've got NineishMan saying he could run naked through the street and not be noticed, but yet the whole disappearing-into-the-woodwork seems to be also a protective mechanism?
Now certainly there are plenty of strange-seeming juxtapositions in other types too, including my own (2w1). In fact, our strange juxtapositions are probably at or near the core of every type. So I am not slamming on 9's for this. It sounds absolutely agonizing, which is probably why I'm posting this.
So my question to you 9's is... for those of us who are not your parents, i.e. cannot fill that childhood void, what does register for you (personally or type generalization) as a kind of attention that is affirming but not threatening? The 9's I've known have been certainly unique and in most cases, noticed and liked by most people around them. I have a coworker who I think is a 9w1 who is probably the only person in my work group (~2 dozen people) whom everyone likes. So is it a matter that 9's have trouble recognizing positive attention and letting it soak in, or is there some specific way you secretly wish for people to behave toward you when you are in that protective withdrawn place? I've been assuming that when a 9 "checks out" they really want to be left the heck alone, but maybe I'm wrong? Out here [edit: "out here" meaning outside of your inner sanctum], we're not getting many cues off of you (or at least I'm not) as to how you'd like us to show that we notice and like you. Any pointers you can give will be much appreciated.
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
NineishMan
Posted - 07 Nov 2009 : 8:09:30 PM Hi 9angel! Interesting, this last post you made. I can see the tendency in myself of not expecting to be seen. A month ago, i made a post in this very thread about the feeling of not being seen even if i ran naked on the street; yes it's that extreme with me sometimes. I can also see the tendency of staying quiet in a meeting, while the more assertive types are dominating. I do not think it's a matter of extroversion versus introversion, more a matter of typical Nineish slowness, but perhaps it's different for more introverted Nines.
quote:What she didn't know was that the next morning I always felt this awfulness...coming from the sense that I was **too** out there, that is, expressing myself. Took years to learn what that was all about and to heal that. Having been "out there" made me feel **ashamed**, like someone might if they had gotten rip-roaring drunk and danced on the table the night before, only I was just really getting into a great conversation! Ugh.
I find this very surprising for a Nine, and so contradictory to our typical diluted feeling of self. I would expect this rather for a Four. Are you sure it's shame that you're feeling? Or are you angry? Angry because you have stayed quiet so many times to keep the peace or because you don't feel important enough? Angry because you didn't have that great conversation earlier? Don't you often feel angry for staying quiet and going along with other (more assertive) people's agenda?
I apologise if i'm being too confronting and/or intruding.
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP
manda7panda
Posted - 07 Nov 2009 : 7:53:43 PM Thanks, 9angel. I've really been enjoying the responses, insight and suggestions that you and others have posted in this thread. Educational, interesting, and helpful. Suitable for immediate application.
2w1 - ENFP
9angel
Posted - 07 Nov 2009 : 5:11:51 PM I think 9s really appreciate it when another notices us in our struggles and ask if they can help (and means it). We're very often so attuned to when someone else is struggling with something or needs something (like 2s in that way), but find it difficult to ask when we are (don't want to be a bother). So, when someone recognizes this and comes to support us, whether in big ways or small, we are *extremely* grateful. And we feel seen which is incredible! That is because we really don't expect it or feel entitled to it, so it's really, really nice! :-)
What else feels good is being told, "You make a really good point, I hadn't seen it that way..." Yes! There is a lot that 9s can see in a situation, in a discussion, that they don't get to express. A lot of times it's because the more extroverted types jump in and take over right away. And we're sitting there thinking, "there is a layer that goes so much deeper than what they are saying". Sometimes the pressure of knowing this gets so strong and we'll just jump right in: "I have something to say!" and sure enough, many times people do respond with (after getting over their shock that this quiet "withdrawn" person is speaking up), "that's a really great point"; and the discussion starts down an entirely new and more insightful and productive track.
But it's helpful for someone to seek that out from a 9 and give him or her the pace to do it. Good facilitators do this by, first, saying something like "let's all take 5 minutes to jot down some thoughts" (thus allowing the more introverted personalities to settle down inside and allowing for "space" in the room) and then in the course of the conversation, to ask those who haven't yet spoken up if they'd like to add something. That is really helpful for 9s (and others that may be more introverted/"shy").
I'm with a lot of the other 9s here in that I don't like to be made the center of attention! But I DO like to have my voice heard; I do want influence in the situation, as much as anyone--especially when I feel that I am seeing the bigger picture and therefore how everyone can get what they need and desire in the situation. As a 9, I do most of the time feel this IS possible! :-)
Another thing I can think of that has stayed with me for years is that a friend once told me she always thinks of inviting me to her dinner parties because I was a "sparkler". I didn't know what she meant and she explained that she valued how I was able to keep the conversation going, having everyone's voice included while also keeping things pleasant and humorous, in other words, harmonious. Stimulating and yet harmonious! That was wonderful to hear and something I didn't recognize in myself as being worth anything and here I learned that it was.
What she didn't know was that the next morning I always felt this awfulness...coming from the sense that I was **too** out there, that is, expressing myself. Took years to learn what that was all about and to heal that. Having been "out there" made me feel **ashamed**, like someone might if they had gotten rip-roaring drunk and danced on the table the night before, only I was just really getting into a great conversation! Ugh. So, it's also nice for a 9 to hear, "I loved how you spoke up!", or "I love how you asserted yourself!"--and mean it.
NineishMan
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 4:00:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by manda7panda
quote:Originally posted by NineishMan we Nines wanna be seen without the hard work, without the accomplishments, without all that cosmetic stuff. So we expect people to do the effort to see us
And they should because you are a person and that is reason enough to be seen.
Exactly what i need to come out of the shadows...
I'd suggest you try this one on your co-worker.
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP
amande
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 5:44:10 PM This whole thread--OMGYES.
9w1 sp/sx INFP
manda7panda
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 09:22:49 AM Wow... uh, I think I was just going for a word that conveyed a feeling approximately conveying a combination of interesting, unusual/unique, likeable, laid-back and fun to be around. But to put those words in a list, for me, loses the feeling content. I considered "cool" but didn't want it confused with the usages of "cool" that convey machismo, false image, contrived popularity. I could have said "neat" but that also has multiple meanings and doesn't necessarily convey the laid-back aspect.
If we had a two-thumbs-up emoticon I could have just used that.
2w1 - ENFP
marie
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 09:08:37 AM Groovy Origin: 1937
The first to be in the groove were African-American jazz musicians, early in the 1930s. They are no longer around to tell us where this groove came from, but scholars have speculated. Maybe it began with that relatively new invention, the phonograph, whose sound came out right when the needle was in the groove; maybe the musicians--virtually all of them men--were creating yet another metaphor for sex. No matter. What matters is the Cool (1949) sound when a player is really in the groove, not forcing the music but letting it flow. "The jazz musicians gave no grandstand performances," wrote an admiring reviewer in 1933, "they simply got a great burn from playing in the groove."
It could be summed up with the word groovy, defined in 1937 as a "state of mind which is conducive to good playing." Before long, there were groovy audiences as well as groovy performers, and by the 1940s things in general could be groovy. Love was groovy, skating was groovy, even pitching a no-hit baseball game was groovy. (By the way, since the early 1900s, the center of the strike zone in baseball has been known as the groove, and a pitcher who throws a fastball there is said to be grooving.)
Groovy was in the air everywhere in the hip, laid-back counterculture of the 1960s, when feeling groovy was the ultimate ambition and praise, as well as the title of a hit song. To groove was "to have fun." "Life as it is really grooves," declares a fictional letter from a group of groovy young dropouts in a 1969 short story by John Updike.
Stormy
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 08:06:38 AM
quote:Originally posted by manda7panda
On top of that, I have yet to meet a Nine who wasn't a really groovy person.
As in 'gets stuck in a groove'? -
[Stormy]
manda7panda
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 07:46:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by NineishMan we Nines wanna be seen without the hard work, without the accomplishments, without all that cosmetic stuff. So we expect people to do the effort to see us
And they should because you are a person and that is reason enough to be seen.
On top of that, I have yet to meet a Nine who wasn't a really groovy person.
2w1 - ENFP
manda7panda
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 07:41:58 AM It was always easy for me to drop what I was doing and be fully present for "big" things, e.g. expressing frustration over project troubles, people issues, etc. I think that came automatically because it triggered my type Two thing - oh, someone needs me, *bing!* here I am... But recently I have been paying attention to being present for everyday stuff like the morning "hey how are you" etc. I used to feel frustrated that she didn't give me a "real" answer to "how are you" - now I think, how could she know I meant it, if I am busy sweetening my tea, etc? My body language did not communicate that I was actually interested, when it was "small" stuff. But in a sense, with regard to relationships, the small stuff is the big stuff.
2w1 - ENFP
NineishMan
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 07:41:05 AM Hi Maureen!
First of all, i'd like to thank you for your post.
quote:It is not (how people often say about nines) that I fear attention, it is the opposite! Attention combined with an openminded and loving attitude brings out the best in me!
I think this is typically what most people don't understand about us. I think we Nines wanna be seen for what we ARE (our intrinsic value), while Threes wanna be seen for what they do. Hence the difference: Threes will do whatever it takes to be noticed (healthy ones through hard work and accomplishments, less healthy ones through image and cosmetics). But we Nines wanna be seen without the hard work, without the accomplishments, without all that cosmetic stuff. So we expect people to do the effort to see us, or at least to meet somewhere halfway.
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP
maureen
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 8:41:47 PM Hello panda, thanks or the recognition ;)
quote: I've realized how often I talk to her while doing something else instead of stopping and looking directly at her.
I don't like that. Years ago I was calling (telephone) a friend. After a while I jumped over my shadow and told her about a problem, I had...While talking I heard the tapping noise of the keypad. When I asked her, what that was, she said that she was meanwhile correcting her essay on the computer. That really made me sad.
Nowadays, I would vent my disappointment and rather end the telefoncall.
If I share something important , I want the person to stop doing things and only listen to me!!! That's important.
A few weeks ago, I was in a group of people (all strangers) we we were talking about religious topics. While I was talking two other girls were talking privately, which made me angry. So I told them that I didn't like it wehn they didn't listen while I speak.
They felt embarrassed...
For me it's important to state my point.
manda7panda
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 8:23:28 PM Thanks for sharing that, Maureen A lot of feeling came through in your post.
As a result of this thread I have been trying to make sure to pay attention with the eye contact and smile for my 9w1 coworker - not in a forced way, just paying attention to these behaviors. I've realized how often I talk to her while doing something else instead of stopping and looking directly at her. I also realized that I have sometimes been more concerned with how she might respond to me, than with truly attending to her. It has really drawn my attention to little important ways that I have not been present to her, while inwardly feeling frustrated that I thought she wasn't present to me. I know these small changes in my attention have made a difference at least to me, as there have been a few moments when I felt like somehow she peeked out from behind the curtain, something in her smile that seemed to say there was an actual connection there and not just a social-niceties smile. I hope it's not my imagination but I think it's actual.
So I thank each of you who have offered advice and insight (and those who may do so in the future too).
2w1 - ENFP
maureen
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 7:38:44 PM An interessting thread and an interesting question, manda7panda.
The question itself gives me the feeling of being seen.
I wish more people in rl would aks questions like that, they express a genuine interest.
The answer/My viewpoint.
Actually, I love being seen, noticed and valued! I do not wish not to be seen. I enjoy to speak in front of an audience about a topic that I have a passion for. I had two times the ocassion that I was allowed to present a film that I made and talk about the film in front of the audience afterwards. Although before entering the stage, I am nervous as hell, as soon as I start to speak and feel the undewided attention of the audience, I enjoy it very much. It gives me positive adrenaline....the rewarding feeling when you make the audience laugh...to feel that you are the focus of their attention.
Among a group of friends who appreciate me for what I am, I am quite often the centre of attention as well, or like a friend of mine put it: "You are close to the spotlight" Their attention and positive resonance brings out the best in me. When I feel that the energy/the focuss of the group is drifting away from me, I somehow become sullen, (maybe because it reminds me of he inner pain of being ignored) Then I drift of. A friend of mine gave me the feedback, that I then appear aloof and unreachable. Maybe I start behaving this way, because i fear that people don't value me, when I am not fully involved in the conversation, or if their attention is not shed upon me. That somehow hurts and thus I withdraw and hold back!
And there are other situation for example in a group of people I don't know well. If I fail to make a good start in the beginning, the famous and important first impression, and the group thus reacts/better to say: doesn't react towards me accordingly I become more and more withdrawn, and I hold myself back. I am somehow encapsulated in myself. This leads to the situation that the others don't see me, since I don't express myself and hold back the interesting stories that I have. So, I guess they perceive me as someone who is shy, maybe as someone who doens't have to say anything. And consequently, they ignore me. By feeling ignored, I drift off, I get into my own world, somewhat passive aggressively and think: "Allright, if you don't take any interest in me, I am not going to reveal my interesting self to you. That is your missed opportunity. You are missing ME! Shame on you! Why don't you ask me tha right questions, questions that get me out of my shell!......etc" I am really feeling sad, because they don't see me. And at the same time I cannot get out of this resignation. I cannot take the action.
What would help me in that case, would be positive energy from the group. If they give me the feeling that they accept me for what I am, and that they are truly interested in me, and if they would focuss their attenton on me, I would be able to be my real, interesting, joking and charming self.
The more positive attention I get, the more visible I become!
It is not (how people often say about nines) that I fear attention, it is the opposite! Attention combined with an openminded and loving attitude brings out the best in me!
At the same time I know, that it is my responsibility, to make myself visible even if the others don't give me that above described feeling. If I would come out of the shell and reveal myself without being afraid to be judged by the others, then the others would also get the chance to perceive me in a different way and as a result would be more interessted in me and give me more attention!
The more I write about this, the clearer it becomes:
I put this expectation on others: I want them to see me and I want them to show this to me and give me the feeling of being important.
That is my condition to come out and show myself.
I wish I wouldn't be that dependent on the open-hearted, welcoming atmosphere from others. I want to be myself, no matter what the outward conditions are.
When people are interested in what I say and when they give me their attention, it energizes me.
If they ignore me..., I loose energy, become insecure and withdraw.
And then I fullfill the image they have from be according to that first impression. It is a trap! But I then tend to act acording to how they think me to be (withdrawn, insecure) Fortunately this happens less and less, because I become more and more secure of myself! Still, sometimes there is thi strap.
When people really see me, the inside of me, and if they ask the right questions and are genuinely interested in me and listen to what I have to say with full attention, that's the biggest present that they could make me.
And: If people are willing to see all aspects of myself. I will give you an example.
I incidently met this older woman. She gave me her attention, she was fully present and focussed on me. In this atmosphere I told her about my wories, my fears... She listened, she shared her experience and at the end she thanked me for sharing a part of myself with her! That was so wonderful and i am so greatful for that.
Another situation. By incident, at night I met a wonderful 5w4 that I have known for some years. We had long and interesting conversations, but I was never really talking about myself, we used to share believes... But this time it was different. He asked me if I had any question inside of myself. And if I wanted to tell him about my questions, maybe he could provide an answer. I felt awkward at first, I told him that I was ashamed to tell him, but he just replied, that he would not judge be, that my question was safe... So I told him, and he listened with this magnificent 5w4 intensity, gave me his feedback about what he had observed in my former behaviours and what he sees now...And he didn't judge, it was such a welcoming and loving atmosphere and I truly felt seen...
Teneo
Posted - 04 Oct 2009 : 5:46:06 PM Being needed; being recognized for being useful.
--------- "The truth is a snare--you cannot have it, without being caught. You cannot have the truth in such a way that you catch it, but only in such a way that it catches you." -Søren Kierkegaard
Habanero
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 9:30:06 PM
quote:Originally posted by manda7panda
So about this seeming paradox where 9's want to be seen, yet fear it. Like on gorgeousboast's thread we've got NineishMan saying he could run naked through the street and not be noticed, but yet the whole disappearing-into-the-woodwork seems to be also a protective mechanism?
Now certainly there are plenty of strange-seeming juxtapositions in other types too, including my own (2w1). In fact, our strange juxtapositions are probably at or near the core of every type. So I am not slamming on 9's for this. It sounds absolutely agonizing, which is probably why I'm posting this.
So my question to you 9's is... for those of us who are not your parents, i.e. cannot fill that childhood void, what does register for you (personally or type generalization) as a kind of attention that is affirming but not threatening? The 9's I've known have been certainly unique and in most cases, noticed and liked by most people around them. I have a coworker who I think is a 9w1 who is probably the only person in my work group (~2 dozen people) whom everyone likes. So is it a matter that 9's have trouble recognizing positive attention and letting it soak in, or is there some specific way you secretly wish for people to behave toward you when you are in that protective withdrawn place? I've been assuming that when a 9 "checks out" they really want to be left the heck alone, but maybe I'm wrong? Out here [edit: "out here" meaning outside of your inner sanctum], we're not getting many cues off of you (or at least I'm not) as to how you'd like us to show that we notice and like you. Any pointers you can give will be much appreciated.
I very much dislike being the center of attention and I honestly don't have a reason why. I do like when people notice things that I may do exceptionally well. And praise is okay here and there. But I think there is a way of being noticed that doesn't require being front and center. Also, it is such a subconscious thing for me to blend in that it's not something I do actively or seek. It seems so ingrained that I really don't know that I'm doing it.
I was a little show off as a three year old. I played Suzuki violin and had no performance anxiety and was really outgoing and talkative. I don't know what happened to that kid. My Nine childhood friend who also played violin grew up to be an accomplished violinist who loooved to perform, but yet had a hard time taking praise and compliments. All kinds of Nines I guess.
NineishMan
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 12:27:30 PM I relate quite a lot with Panda's story about not wanting to be the best, and certainly not wanting that kind of attention. I'm not sure it's about low self-value. Possibly it is, cause i have no idea what my "value" is ... hell, i don't even know who i am!! I think (in my case, at least) it's all about staying out of trouble, cause if i'm the best one time, people could expect me to be the best every time. And that's causing me a lot of stress, causing me to disintegrate to Six, causing me to become fearful, causing me to loose my inner peace.
Wild Cherry Blossom: What you seem to have about quietness, i do seem to have about slowness. I do see myself as rather an extravert. I have no problem doing a monologue for a crowded room, IF the environment is slow enough, IF there is no hostility and IF i am on top of the situation, although i remain very unimpressed about myself (as if i don't matter, as if - even in that situation - i don't really exist). In a group session or a meeting however, things often go to fast for me, so i remain silent and prefer to stay quiet and unnoticed. It's like the world is going too fast, like people are too competitive, too hard-working, too hostile, too demanding ... so when that happens, i check out...
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP
Wild Cherry Blossom
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 09:39:31 AM hi manda
I know... here I am popping up in a post about 9s....! It's odd, but although I relate more to other types (as my previous posts testify,) I'm coming round to the conclusion that it all points to 9. Plenty of other people have said it about me. Sometimes it takes a while to see it yourself. In any case, perhaps it's wise to take my response below with a few grains of salt, just in case my assessment is wrong again!
For me, although I may fantasise about being seen in quite a public open way, I would want to sink into the ground if that happened in real life. The way I like to be seen in real life, is quietly. What I mean is someone else has to be at least as quiet or if it is humanly possible (it may not be!) quieter than me for me to feel I am being seen. I don't come out of hiding except on rare occasions when there is a more extraverted presence in the room with me. I can't help but experience that situation as being all about them. This doesn't mean that I wish others would be less extraverted, I don't in the slightest, I want people to feel they can be just as they are, most of the time I don't want to be seen anyway, but if I'm going to appear, I have to have less going on in the environment or there just isn't room for me. This isn't like a conscious choice, it's just the way my awareness works.
WCB
panda
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 10:10:30 PM I remember an incident long ago that seriously confused myself. After a science test in which half the class failed, everyone was telling the teacher that the test was "impossible," and that he should make it easier. In reply, he told them I had aced the test. Everyone's attention focused on me and two emotions hit me simultaneously. Although I felt good, I wanted to run away and hide in a corner.
My guess is that in order to keep the peace, 9s generally devalue themselves as a side-effect. "If I don't matter, then neither do events that effect me so I can just continue to ignore everything." With low self-value, attention loved by the 9s but 9s self-defence mechanism hates it.
9w1 sp/so
.ron4
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 8:48:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by manda7panda
quote:Originally posted by .ron4
XOXO
.ron4,
I'm not sure how to interpret your reply, but it seems like it would be screamingly ironic for me to ignore it, especially in a thread like this!
So, would you like to elaborate, or should I just give you a smile in return?
I'm in my head alot so actually the reply was for 'stormy' cause he was alluding to being type "9". Although I'v not seen Stormy as needing hugs as I see other 9s do.
I myself like to be validated in some ways here on the board but more for the way I'm understanding and communicating . I have always seen 9s as fragile and thought to be gentle even if it doesn't come across as such I still think of them that way mostly. I have learned to respect the 9s choice to be invisible at times and at the same time I resent them for not being here but then wanting to be seen just when they choose to be also. Enough.
Ron
.ron4
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 8:33:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by Functianalyst
Being seen literally? No! Being acknowledged for my work, efforts and sacrifices, absolutely. I like it when my boss praises me for my work, but I would accept the raise and promotions. Sometimes my children just need to say thank you for the dinner or my SO affirms a well cooked meal. That's enough for me. Back to the whole notion of needing to be seen, when I want attention (consciously or unconsciously), I know what to do to get it. Otherwise with attention comes social indebtedness somehow. No thanks.
9so/sp
there you go! A smile to let you know I agree, ok ? I think I'm so. last.
Ron
Dopple
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 5:29:58 PM In the past I preferred to be acknowledged for my work. I was attractive when I was young, but I felt very uncomfortable when people said anything. It made me blush and scared. Now that I'm in my forties, I take praise much better, although I'm not sure who I am now. But the nicest and most comfortable praise that I receive is centered on what I do. Work or help or cook.
And the type of thank you's I like best are time, snuggles, hugs and good conversation. A nice bottle of wine is always appreciated.
Functianalyst
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 4:26:30 PM Being seen literally? No! Being acknowledged for my work, efforts and sacrifices, absolutely. I like it when my boss praises me for my work, but I would accept the raise and promotions. Sometimes my children just need to say thank you for the dinner or my SO affirms a well cooked meal. That's enough for me. Back to the whole notion of needing to be seen, when I want attention (consciously or unconsciously), I know what to do to get it. Otherwise with attention comes social indebtedness somehow. No thanks.
9so/sp
manda7panda
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 1:38:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by .ron4
XOXO
.ron4,
I'm not sure how to interpret your reply, but it seems like it would be screamingly ironic for me to ignore it, especially in a thread like this!
So, would you like to elaborate, or should I just give you a smile in return?
manda7panda
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 1:33:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44 The bigger point is that you can't do much for a neurotic. They have to decide to do it themselves.
I do certainly agree about that. I have learned better than to think I can "fix" people or get past the filters they have put on reality (no more than they can get past mine ) but in cases where there are certain things that will make it through the filter in a positive way... that's what I'm going for. That's what I hear Stormy and NineishMan describing.
Thanks also for your elaboration/fleshing-out of the way the notice/non-notice dilemma feels from the inside.
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but I think it's actual.
