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faultyideal
Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 12:40:58 AM I see this horrible affliction in myself, in ways I cannot explain concretely at the moment other than some pathetic examples, but when I can materialize an explanation I will post.
In the meantime, discuss?
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
faultyideal
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 10:08:31 PM
quote:Originally posted by goodmourning
So, what to discuss next with this topic?
Learning about this hit me, because unlike other "schizoid" "disorders" people with chronic APD long for connection. I'm at a loss, because I don't have a shy or quiet character at all anymore, but can't seem to start any momentum socially in my life. Group therapy is helping me with the dark spots in my social skills, and social anxiety that comes up, that slowly gets converted into an excitement.
I relate to this personality problem, what's other people's experiences?
i can kind of relate to you there. i used to never talk, and if i was put into a social situation my face would burn red.
it wasn't until i got into a drama class in highschool that i opened up, became kind of fun to be around.
still i sometimes go months without talking to my friends. after a while i have to build myself up to call them to hang out, usually out of the blue. i mean i want to connect, i'm just afraid it won't work out or something of that nature.
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
goodmourning
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 11:30:23 AM So, what to discuss next with this topic?
Learning about this hit me, because unlike other "schizoid" "disorders" people with chronic APD long for connection. I'm at a loss, because I don't have a shy or quiet character at all anymore, but can't seem to start any momentum socially in my life. Group therapy is helping me with the dark spots in my social skills, and social anxiety that comes up, that slowly gets converted into an excitement.
I relate to this personality problem, what's other people's experiences?
faultyideal
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 7:15:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by ptypes
It's true that I don't know very much about the Enneagram. I responded to the thread because the topic was the Avoidant personality type, which I think I know more about.
and thank you ptypes, after all it was your site i was reading when the idea to post came into my head
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
ptypes
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 12:42:26 PM It's true that I don't know very much about the Enneagram. I responded to the thread because the topic was the Avoidant personality type, which I think I know more about.
dfgray44
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 12:01:01 PM
quote:Originally posted by faultyideal
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44 Also, my inner image of the bones, right or wrong, ultimately has them residing in a single spot, not spread throughout a plethora of exotic locales. And further, my image places him in a small boat which represents his having minimal will of his own - the emotional sea controls him - which renders adventure a very far-off dream.
it's funny, because one time i explained to one of my best friends that my inner landscape was a sort of stormy and watery place, with me sitting scared on a small boat being pushed around on huge rolling waves, with lightening striking overhead. underneath the waves i fear huge monstrous creatures just waiting for me with open mouths. in the distance i can see a piece of land. if i could just get to land i would be safe but the boat is definitely not going in that direction.
i know that if only i could get the courage to abandon my boat, plunge into the dark water and swim to land, i might have a chance to get there. i might not make it, but if i tried it'd be better than sitting and hoping. still the fear holds me back.
i'm very afraid of the water...
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
Part of the value of the Enneagram is its ability to codify and stratify the psyche. I'm not a psychic (though I can't say that I haven't played a role in the occassional psychic occurrence) - I was only looking at the particular brand of 4-ness that your posts alluded to. The fact that your 4-ness and its brand (the way it gets expressed) are so seeable means that your pattern isn't random or particularly chaotic (though it seems storm-tossed from your perspective), and this unfortunately alludes to the fact that it isn't particularly unique (Sorry). [I'm referring to the pattern, not you as a person.]
What I'm saying is those unknown sea monsters with the gaping mouths may only have big messages they want to express - that's why those big mouths are so wide open - they're ready to communicate, rather than eat. As you say, your sense is that they're waiting for you, and we all know a sea monster could easily tump over your little boat if it wanted to.
This is the juncture during the dream where the dreamer decides to turn back toward the monster that's been chasing him. The dreamer then asks the monster why it's been harassing him. At this point, the monster suddenly engages in a very civilized conversation with the dreamer. The monster was, afterall, always just a small speck in the dreamer's universe.
A person's angels always first appear as devils.
********* / *
faultyideal
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 10:23:16 AM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44 Also, my inner image of the bones, right or wrong, ultimately has them residing in a single spot, not spread throughout a plethora of exotic locales. And further, my image places him in a small boat which represents his having minimal will of his own - the emotional sea controls him - which renders adventure a very far-off dream.
it's funny, because one time i explained to one of my best friends that my inner landscape was a sort of stormy and watery place, with me sitting scared on a small boat being pushed around on huge rolling waves, with lightening striking overhead. underneath the waves i fear huge monstrous creatures just waiting for me with open mouths. in the distance i can see a piece of land. if i could just get to land i would be safe but the boat is definitely not going in that direction.
i know that if only i could get the courage to abandon my boat, plunge into the dark water and swim to land, i might have a chance to get there. i might not make it, but if i tried it'd be better than sitting and hoping. still the fear holds me back.
i'm very afraid of the water...
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
dfgray44
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 03:54:26 AM
quote:Originally posted by ptypes
I found it interesting that you imagine the solution for faultyideal as being something in the style of an adventurer, or even pirate, searching all over the globe for his lost bones. Seems very appropriate in view of my "Adventurous" typing of you. Or maybe I'm projecting it unjustifiably.
But when I read what you've written, I still get the gut feeling; con-artist bullfhit.
The part that goes counter to the Adventurous style, though, is that I envision faultyideal's "adventure" as being a slow multi-decade process, which, though it will have its high points, is also full of significant downs and lulls, as opposed to being a glorious high-seas escapade. Also, my inner image of the bones, right or wrong, ultimately has them residing in a single spot, not spread throughout a plethora of exotic locales. And further, my image places him in a small boat which represents his having minimal will of his own - the emotional sea controls him - which renders adventure a very far-off dream.
In contrast to the Adventurer's outward-moving style, you might also note that my starting premise - "the universe is folded within" - turns me significantly in the opposite direction.
I'd also suggest that the idea (mentioned to faultyideal) of observing the consistent patterns in one's emotional undercurrents should find considerable resonance in your Stoic concepts for health and growth.
********* / *
shakti
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 03:38:05 AM
quote:Originally posted by ptypes
It must have been just a lucky guess.
True. But you'd be amazed how much you can 'know' even if it can only be represented symbolically or as the case here in a 'lucky guess' if you allowed it. df in an INFP but with a highly developed intuition. Damn near psychic is a good description for him.
What struck me about your initial rejection of his post was that you at one time engaged in the disorder business quite a bit on your own site and here. For you, it was a perhaps a product of fear. In a way like a reformed person (sinner), you are sensitive to any level of engaging in the disorder business. But, type four (perhaps not everyone, but many) does feel at home in the darker space of disorder (flaw) and so on, than in the gifts/strengths space. Also, the disorder business when engaged in (not from a place of fear) but from a place of exploration, can potentially offer insight (to some).
That said, though years ago I could not grasp your approach, I do at this point, and I have gained valuable insight from things you've posted on your site regarding pride etc. and see how you see df as adventurous and me as self-sacrificing and lee as conscientious. Of course, you would pick out those features as you encounter posts from any of us; still, what df says is more than adventurous, though I certainly see that he is quite the wild man at times and definitely doesn't fit or aspire to fit the leisurely temperament (which I think would correspond to his enneagram type).
faultyideal
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 7:47:47 PM Haha turned out to be lucky for me too
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
ptypes
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 7:41:13 PM It must have been just a lucky guess.
faultyideal
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 7:29:27 PM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
ptypes may think it's bull-fuh-hit, but df is damn near psychic. I just took a quiz for my online oceanography class... that map definitely helped since currents and their circulation patterns were what was being tested..
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
ptypes
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 6:39:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
faultyideal has the entire universe folded within him. So all the 'bones' are excavatable from within his own lands. The best I might be able to do is throw up a geological image that may lend a clue for where to dig.
One thing we notice from the description of the avoidant personality is that every one of those traits is 'subtractive', i.e.- passive/'feminine'/'black' - it all has a negative electrical charge - whereas some of the other 'introverted' disorders contain some 'phallic' element. So, faulty has identified himself with this energetic style, and on his globe this ostensibly places him on the dark hemisphere, always racing away from the sun. We'd also probably find him out at sea in a small boat, particularly subject to being emotionally tossed. Even as he makes a plan of action, every passing wind threatens to change his course, and he seems unaware of the nature of the flow of emotional undercurrents which set him adrift between continents and contribute to his lostness-at-sea.
It would seem that digging for bones will come at a later stage - he'll need to find land first. Therefore, discovering (and fully acknowledging) that his emotional undercurrents are actually patterned (instead of random) and then mapping those currents, as best as possible, would both give him some sense of choice about going (or not going) in certain emotional directions and would offer the chance to use those patterns to safely reach land.
This stage could be called "Making Solid Forms Out Of Water". And it can piggyback on one of the 4's neurotic tendencies....naming and fetishizing emotions is something they have a particular talent for, though sometimes it remains latent or in semi-consciousness.
********* / *
I found it interesting that you imagine the solution for faultyideal as being something in the style of an adventurer, or even pirate, searching all over the globe for his lost bones. Seems very appropriate in view of my "Adventurous" typing of you. Or maybe I'm projecting it unjustifiably.
But when I read what you've written, I still get the gut feeling; con-artist bullfhit.
Art_Skidmore
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 5:47:45 PM the underlying themes of enneagramic types are:
thinkers are avoiding anxiety about their future. feelers are avoiding shame from their past. sensors are avoiding rage in their present.
4 example....feeling types are avoiding their negative "shame" which may show up at any moment and burst their present day promoted variant images.
dfgray44
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 4:35:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by ptypes
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
I'd suggest that this is one reason you don't fathom Type 4. Their reality might be described as resembling a person swimming in an ever-liquid Impressionist painting of mercurial emotional tone. Their 'disorder' is a difficulty in finding and claiming bones....bones that would allow them to construct more unemotional psychic structures from which to launch into the outer world. Hence, the healthy movement to E1 and ideals....
Well, this is great.
I think it's great too!
We have faultyideal,
Speak for yourself...
a 4, coming to us for some assistance, and you're here and know all about the "disorder" of the 4.
I don't know all about it, just more than you.
Why don't you tell faultyideal what some of those bones are and what she or he can do to acquire them.
faultyideal has the entire universe folded within him. So all the 'bones' are excavatable from within his own lands. The best I might be able to do is throw up a geological image that may lend a clue for where to dig.
One thing we notice from the description of the avoidant personality is that every one of those traits is 'subtractive', i.e.- passive/'feminine'/'black' - it all has a negative electrical charge - whereas some of the other 'introverted' disorders contain some 'phallic' element. So, faulty has identified himself with this energetic style, and on his globe this ostensibly places him on the dark hemisphere, always racing away from the sun. We'd also probably find him out at sea in a small boat, particularly subject to being emotionally tossed. Even as he makes a plan of action, every passing wind threatens to change his course, and he seems unaware of the nature of the flow of emotional undercurrents which set him adrift between continents and contribute to his lostness-at-sea.
It would seem that digging for bones will come at a later stage - he'll need to find land first. Therefore, discovering (and fully acknowledging) that his emotional undercurrents are actually patterned (instead of random) and then mapping those currents, as best as possible, would both give him some sense of choice about going (or not going) in certain emotional directions and would offer the chance to use those patterns to safely reach land.
This stage could be called "Making Solid Forms Out Of Water". And it can piggyback on one of the 4's neurotic tendencies....naming and fetishizing emotions is something they have a particular talent for, though sometimes it remains latent or in semi-consciousness.
********* / *
faultyideal
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 2:12:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by Classi
Lol, I just thought faultyideal, your ideals are faulty because they are based on emotion....there's more to a screename than just a name
Haha I thought I was just being emo
And I have come to the conclusion that my evidence is slightly stupid, so I've been hiding for a little while
I, too, have assigned myself jobs that only I am allowed to do in my house, and I take pride when I get them done and I am appreciated.
INFP 4w5 sp/sx?
Classi
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 12:37:59 PM Lol, I just thought faultyideal, your ideals are faulty because they are based on emotion....there's more to a screename than just a name
Classi
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 12:32:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
Their 'disorder' is a difficulty in finding and claiming bones....bones that would allow them to construct more unemotional psychic structures from which to launch into the outer world. Hence, the healthy movement to E1 and ideals....
I've taken to cleaning. I ensure that the house is spotless for me and my housemates, and I'm the one who does it, and noone does it better. There you go fours, personal significance based on something real, and I'm consistently proud of it, there are no moments where I doubt it, or realise it isn't real and that I have nothing to show for it...no, I have a clean house and gratitude from my housemates to show for my efforts and I feel more confident/capable.
ptypes
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 11:55:25 AM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
I'd suggest that this is one reason you don't fathom Type 4. Their reality might be described as resembling a person swimming in an ever-liquid Impressionist painting of mercurial emotional tone. Their 'disorder' is a difficulty in finding and claiming bones....bones that would allow them to construct more unemotional psychic structures from which to launch into the outer world. Hence, the healthy movement to E1 and ideals....
Well, this is great. We have faultyideal, a 4, coming to us for some assistance, and you're here and know all about the "disorder" of the 4. Why don't you tell faultyideal what some of those bones are and what she or he can do to acquire them.
goodmourning
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 10:06:15 AM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:Originally posted by ptypes
I think of the so called personality disorders, generally, in the same way that I think of the Enneagram types: they're not real. They are essentially ideal types.
I appreciate the concept of 'ideal types' as regards the E-types and the DSM disorders. 'Ideal', in this case, makes me think of Jung's archetypes...which have a kind of two-dimensionality to them, making any single one of them woefully inadequate for holding the 'global' person.
The difference though is that the E-types aren't just the stick-figure skeletal structures that the DSM/archetypes are. The E-types have muscle on the bone...which dictates a 'style of movement' in 3-dimensional psychic space.
The DSM/'ideals' are significantly bereft of tone; and if you're not picking up on tones in the E-type descriptions then you're not hearing a major portion of what's being said.
I'd suggest that this is one reason you don't fathom Type 4. Their reality might be described as resembling a person swimming in an ever-liquid Impressionist painting of mercurial emotional tone. Their 'disorder' is a difficulty in finding and claiming bones....bones that would allow them to construct more unemotional psychic structures from which to launch into the outer world. Hence, the healthy movement to E1 and ideals....
********* / *
If the Enneagram was just a collection of traits and dysfunction like the above examples, I would've written it off as complete BS. I began my exploration of the E as a complete skeptic.
dfgray44
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 5:07:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by ptypes
I think of the so called personality disorders, generally, in the same way that I think of the Enneagram types: they're not real. They are essentially ideal types.
I appreciate the concept of 'ideal types' as regards the E-types and the DSM disorders. 'Ideal', in this case, makes me think of Jung's archetypes...which have a kind of two-dimensionality to them, making any single one of them woefully inadequate for holding the 'global' person.
The difference though is that the E-types aren't just the stick-figure skeletal structures that the DSM/archetypes are. The E-types have muscle on the bone...which dictates a 'style of movement' in 3-dimensional psychic space.
The DSM/'ideals' are significantly bereft of tone; and if you're not picking up on tones in the E-type descriptions then you're not hearing a major portion of what's being said.
I'd suggest that this is one reason you don't fathom Type 4. Their reality might be described as resembling a person swimming in an ever-liquid Impressionist painting of mercurial emotional tone. Their 'disorder' is a difficulty in finding and claiming bones....bones that would allow them to construct more unemotional psychic structures from which to launch into the outer world. Hence, the healthy movement to E1 and ideals....
********* / *
goodmourning
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 3:19:06 PM I should've said "BUMP!!!"
.ron4
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 3:09:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by goodmourning
Hello!
Do you feel like people are avoiding you ?
goodmourning
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 1:55:13 PMHello!
goodmourning
Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 8:45:10 PM It takes tremendous momentum to begin to over come chronic avoidance that has lasted into adulthood. I didn't make much progress until I found Schema therapy. I worked with it alone, the Enneagram kept me going. These two approaches taught me that there are many facets to a lifelong personality "disorder" like this. And that that it is rarely ever a disorder in and of itself, but an outgrowth of character structure. I learned that I avoid very visceral emotional reactions of feeling isolated, incompetant, emotionally inhibited, and subjugated by the demands of others. As I began working full time again and making a life for myself, these reactions repeatedly came up, driving me to want to avoid life. But being able to understand what the reactions really are, led me to stop avoiding nearly as much, and much material has come to consciousness in reaction to being in life and facing the reactions I used to avoid. Something you don't learn in a monastery.
Rich
Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 7:05:53 PM I have the Sensitive Style ( the avoidant in the adaptive range ), and it indeed can make life extremely difficult. The good news is that as life progress, you can find routines that greatly help with coping with this problem! /
ISTJ & SP-3W4 Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles HER:Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles SP-2W1 ISFJ My philosophy of life: Love will get you through. I learned to dissemble at an early age.
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