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T O P I C R E V I E W
EMike583
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 5:56:01 PM[NOTE: This thread was originally titled, "Could I be a Five after all?"]
I don't think it's all that implausible. [EDIT, some content removed.] My ideal job would be as follows: I'm a pen-and-paper theoretician who sits in his office for most of the day, formulating ideas, writing about them to specialists and to the general public, and conducting research to empirically validate my ideas. This would obviously be a professor/academic type of job. I would have a small group of coworkers, other academics who have interests similar to mine and generally high intelligence, giving us at least something in common. My face-to-face contact with the general public would be in the form of lectures, which I would likely enjoy because I like interacting with people so long as it's something interesting we're talking about and not the mindless chatter and idiotic joking around which forms the mainstay of most people's social interactions.
So, this being the case, I don't think I'm really such a far cry from E5.
Posted - 22 Jul 2012 : 05:03:28 AM EMike-No offense, but you won't know until you want to know.Can you take responsibility for the negative parts of being the 6 or 9. What is keeping you from seeing what motivates you?
EMike583
Posted - 10 Jun 2012 : 3:23:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by Corruption
quote:Originally posted by emerald Good morning, EMike. I experience you as a 9w1, with little doubt about it in my gut. You have that quality of being "unable to decide," difficulty coming down on one side of the fence or the other.
This is hardly unique to E9, it is indeed something that E6 and E9 often have in common. The essential difference is why they are unable to decide, though it's not going to be cut'n'dried if you have both fixations.
It was my understanding that E9 doubts because they have (subconsciously) suppressed their personal viewpoint to some extent. E6 doubts because they do not trust what is made apparent to their conscious mind, fearing being deceived (whether this is an issue more with the deception of other people, of their own minds or of 'the universe' is a topic of debate, but personally I think any of these could apply).
I'm probably more the latter
6w5 SP/SO
Corruption
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 4:03:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by eidbuser Usually if someone realizes their type and knows this truth solidly in their gut, there is no need to convince others of this, or to try to have this validated. It is a self-validating truth that needs no outer supports. Of course if we stay on the level of our conceptual mind, we will always be unsure of ourselves and on shaky territory concerning our shifting images of who we take ourselves to be.
I agree with this, if we just handily ignore the slight problem that there are different ways of defining the types.
I'm saying this because I had that gut feeling about being a six after reading Naranjo the 2nd time, deciding that Naranjo understood E6 better than R&H. But over a year later read Helen Palmer's much narrower definition of E6, and rather than just thinking 'Palmer doesn't understand E6 either' I wondered what objective basis I had for thinking only Naranjo wrote the definitive E6 when there is no factual evidence for believing one version is more correct than any other (beyond experience telling me that ALL E-authors clearly have highly-selective vision), and I don't have the required psychological knowledge or inter-personal insights to have a clear opinion either way.
Yes I am dependent on definitions, because in my opinion definitions are all the types amount to. This isn't to say I think it comes down to behaviours either, but I'm afraid that behaviours aren't the only thing the E-gram authors disagree on.
Corruption
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 3:31:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by emerald Good morning, EMike. I experience you as a 9w1, with little doubt about it in my gut. You have that quality of being "unable to decide," difficulty coming down on one side of the fence or the other.
This is hardly unique to E9, it is indeed something that E6 and E9 often have in common. The essential difference is why they are unable to decide, though it's not going to be cut'n'dried if you have both fixations.
It was my understanding that E9 doubts because they have (subconsciously) suppressed their personal viewpoint to some extent. E6 doubts because they do not trust what is made apparent to their conscious mind, fearing being deceived (whether this is an issue more with the deception of other people, of their own minds or of 'the universe' is a topic of debate, but personally I think any of these could apply).
eidbuser
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 02:57:53 AM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
To get validation for my self-type in a characteristically E6 manner
Yeah, that's what we do. Seeking validation is in some sense a way of trying to convince ourselves. There's also a dimension of trying to prove that you're somebody. If people believe and/or validate the person you present to the world (essentially giving you a reflection of yourself) it allows you accept yourself in a fuller way. If people don't validate you, then you'll feel endlessly frustrated that people don't see you the way you want them to.
There's also an unusual level of over-self-interpretation in there. If you "know" you're doing something within an ego-type, the self-insight should sink deep enough so that one realizes the falsehood of that behavior. Real self-understanding should create a disidentification from one's mechanical personality.
I think that your statement: "[I'm trying] to get validation... in a characteristically E6 manner" betrays an element of you trying to convince yourself of this identity, and the underlying doubt and uncertainty about it. I can see that you have a lot of self-doubt around your feeling of identity and your sense of self.
Usually if someone realizes their type and knows this truth solidly in their gut, there is no need to convince others of this, or to try to have this validated. It is a self-validating truth that needs no outer supports. Of course if we stay on the level of our conceptual mind, we will always be unsure of ourselves and on shaky territory concerning our shifting images of who we take ourselves to be.
If you really knew you were an E6 without any doubt, you wouldn't have to keep these conversations going. It is the self-doubt that perpetuates these recurring cycles of identity crisis. I believe that this is all the more exacerbated by having the 3-6-9 tritype.
I think that Helen Palmer pointed out an interesting dynamic in type 9. We are constantly wanting to "be somebody" in our connection to point 3, but the constant self-doubt and deep insecurity at point 6 perpetually keeps us held back from being fully ourselves.
eidbuser
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 02:29:59 AM cool. so what's your reason for keeping the discussion and threads about it going?
eidbuser
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 8:30:46 PM emike, i can see some similarities between us in 'patterns' and 'gestalts.' Less in terms of our personalities, but more in terms of similar patterns we could fall into. The content of our personalities could be very different, but the container is of similar type.
You seem to go back and forth mostly between 9 and 6. The general way you express yourself seems more 9ish, and it's not really about the content of what you say so much as how you say it, or your pattern of behavior and communication over time.
Mind you, I don't have much of an investment in seeing you as a 9 or not, but that's what my intuition tells me.
I haven't read every post here, but there's something 'vague' about your personality and the purpose behind your actions. Like you're sort of just wandering, meandering, going through the flow of life.
The enneagram is odd because there are obvious 'vibes' to the different types that can be picked up on from a physical level. I think we're still defining and also trying to re-discover what the real psychological-mechanisms are underlying those vibes.
I get the impression that you look at behavior as indications of type, which is true to a degree, but I think type is much more fundamental than that. Different types could have similar patterns of behavior but the inner dimension of it is different.
In my own life explorations I'm beginning to notice that language lacks words for these subtle dimensions of physicality. Some kind of energy, vibe, subtle substance, or "ether." Language is so vague and imprecise here. The whole notion that type is determined by "vibe" is pointing to some subtle physical level of perception that has a whole realm of dimensionality to it with laws operating that we don't really understand yet.
Something like the "life force" expresses itself differently through each body, and each e-type has a different energetic field that expresses itself through their physicality.
I'm becoming more and more interested in the body, the "deep" body, somatic psychology, etc. There seems to be so much about the body that we don't really understand, and which is so key to understanding what it means to be alive and human. It feels like such an unexplored territory that could be infinitely deep.
oceanlife
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 6:56:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Emerald, you may be right about my type but I feel you're describing a hypothetical 9w1 more than you're describing me.
this could be because 9's often see themselves as hypothetical people.
'Let say that I'm a person.'
As much to leave a perfectly sane person feeling insane.
EMike583
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 6:33:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Emerald, you may be right about my type but I feel you're describing a hypothetical 9w1 more than you're describing me.
Hmmm, that's interesting since I baesd my comments solely on your posts, describing what I felt coming from "you." I am truly puzzled.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
I think you may have described a healthy or idealized version of me. Like, I don't see the part about being gentle with people I disagree with and about seeing all sides of an issue. That's pretty rarely true of me.
emerald
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 6:05:27 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Emerald, you may be right about my type but I feel you're describing a hypothetical 9w1 more than you're describing me.
Hmmm, that's interesting since I baesd my comments solely on your posts, describing what I felt coming from "you." I am truly puzzled.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
emerald
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 1:33:18 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by emerald
EMike, are you still wanting input? It seems that mostly others are posting at the moment.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
Sure, I'd like to hear more input, emerald.
Good morning, EMike. I experience you as a 9w1, with little doubt about it in my gut. You have that quality of being "unable to decide," difficulty coming down on one side of the fence or the other. You remain open-minded to and patient with the input you receive, replying in a receptive and gentle way even when you don't agree. You have a warmth about you, introverted but not detached. You are concerned with morality and can shift into the judgmental or obsessive style at times (1 wing). Your difficulty finding yourself among 9s because they are so varied is actually a perceptive stance. One author wrote (it might be Hurley and Dobson - yes, that's two authors - but I'm not sure if it's them) that 9 is the universal type, more than any other type encompassing something of all the other types, the most nearly complete and "perfect" type when in a healthy state. You patiently respond without picking a fight, even when responses are not particularly kind or helpful. You are capable of giving, directly, using few words but making your point in a kind and supportive way.
That's good for starters. If you want to ask for more, feel free to ask. -- Emerald
1w9 - sp ISFJ
sappy
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 4:54:06 PM EMike, I don't think every 9w1 is effiminate or gay. Not every gay person is effiminate, either.
But I was more talking about stacking, and Alan is the projection area for all the stuff people don't want to be, Charlie the opposite. Guess who's sx-last. It's just a tv show, though, but it still says something.
The point why I bought up the show more then once is that Alan has a certain self-depreciating style that reminds me of you. And when you thought you are a nine, you projected that on E9 in general. Like in your typing process: person xyz is intense, 9s are not intense. Not the best example, perhaps.
The theme of the series is, what is really manly. Is it manly to sleep around, drink and being afraid of commitment or being responsible, faithful but less successful, more "boring". You could say at some points of the show one of the grownups is only the half man.
Stormy
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 3:35:21 PM
quote:Originally posted by Kate
quote:Originally posted by EMike583 E6: A heterogeneousnon homogeneous type due to various Sixes' differing styles of handling anxietyattachment and fear separation.
Anxiety is different from fear in that it is not centered around a particular tangible stimulus.
The stimulus of fear for six is fear of separationvulnerability. This can take different forms depending on foremost instinct. But, it all amounts to a similar pattern. Some will form phobic belongingvigilance patterns, while others will form counterphobic deviantdaring patterns (which still have a belongingvigilance aspect to them), and still others will have both present, wavering. The wavering is the classic sometimes pathological 6 pattern of testing.
- [Stormy]
sunny
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 3:01:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by Kate
quote:Originally posted by EMike583 E6: A heterogeneousnon homogeneous type due to various Sixes' differing styles of handling anxietyattachment and fear separation.
Anxiety is different from fear in that it is not centered around a particular tangible stimulus.
The stimulus of fear for six is fear of separation. This can take different forms depending on foremost instinct. But, it all amounts to a similar pattern. Some will form phobic belonging patterns, while others will form counterphobic deviant patterns (which still have a belonging aspect to them), and still others will have both present, wavering. The wavering is the classic sometimes pathological 6 pattern of testing.
quote:Originally posted by EMike583 Anxiety leads to insecurity which leads Sixes to seek guidance outside of themselves, be it in a relationship or team of friends, coworkers, etc. (more w7) or in an ideology, the abstract notion of 'authority', or even reason itself (more w5). Some Sixes are more compliant (phobic), others more rebellious (counter-phobic.) They often seem stuck between obedience and defiance, uncomfortable with either alternative and vacillating back and forth.
The problem with sixes is they don't believe in guidance. The big lie is they want it. Except, they don't. It's an illusion they build for themselves to knock down and justify to themselves that the world is inherently untrustworthy.
A six's (until they integrate) world view is dualistic. It's split, much like a 9's is re attachment at a fundamental level. They can't let go, but they want to and from this stems insecurity and hatred and anger/rage.
I suppose it depends on who you believe, but R/H say 9 fears loss and separation, 6 fears lack of support and guidance.
Ime, 6s are more likely to instigate separation than 9s are. They have a closer link to "avarice" than 9s do and are more ambivalent about attaching to others in the first place.
-----------------------
EMike583
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 2:44:45 PM
quote:Originally posted by sappy
The whole series revolves around him being the sensible citizen who doesn't get women, is thought of as gay, boring etc.
I disagree with the notion of 9w1 as being an "effeminate" type. I might be 9w1, and I don't get the impression that anyone misinterprets me as "gay." Reserved and a bit dry, yes, but my utilitarian wardrobe and logical, rational orientation are pretty conventionally masculine stuff.
EMike583
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 2:37:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by emerald
EMike, are you still wanting input? It seems that mostly others are posting at the moment.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
Sure, I'd like to hear more input, emerald.
emerald
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 11:58:23 AM EMike, are you still wanting input? It seems that mostly others are posting at the moment.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
sappy
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 11:28:46 AM No, we try to lull people to sleep, because people who are asleep don't sin.
emerald
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 11:18:59 AM Are you all still trying to figure out what type EMike583 is?
1w9 - sp ISFJ
sappy
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 10:17:10 AM Alan Harper from Two and a half Men seems like a 9w1 sp/so as well.
The whole series revolves around him being the sensible citizen who doesn't get women, is thought of as gay, boring etc.
His brother is a sexual 7w8 who gets all the good stuff. The series was criticized because the viewer tends to identify with Alan, the 'normalo' who gets all the sh|t, which makes it depressing to watch.
sappy
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 10:01:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by Corruption
I wonder why sp/so appears to be taken as code for 'really sensible' or 'I never go off the rails or do anything a bit mad or impulsive'?
Maybe this is what it is supposed to mean but I don't really buy the whole stacking thing anyway so am naturally cynical about anything said about stackings.
Stacking seems to make sense to me, more then tritype. I think sp/so get a reputation like that, but when you get to know them they can be funny, zany and so on as well, like everyone else. In some ways they are even more playful then sx-firsts, who can be dead serious about stuff.
The above was a joke, because people always come on here with lofty aspirations like, I'm a sx-first, then get shut down, sometimes with good reasoning, but othertimes it seems just annoying. Of course there is projection for 'charge', interesting, attractivness etc. on the sexual instinct, the opposite is the lack thereof in sx-lasts.
I also think the antisocial aspect in soc-lasts on here is overrated.
rockthrower
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 11:44:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Bear, I agree that being strongly introverted doesn't necessarily make someone a Five. But since E5 is generally the most introverted type, I was just exploring the possibility.
I find it interesting that E5 wouldn't be the prototypical intellectual/academic because it seems so intuitive to connect the two. I think you are right, though. Fives definitely are "thinking" types but not really the "public intellectual" that I view myself as.
I'm still not 100% convinced calling myself a 9w1 means anything in particular for the following reasons. I still don't understand the type's huge breadth - there is a huge range of personalities associated with 9w1. 9w1s run the gamut from warm and people-oriented to aloof and intellectual, from cutting-edge to compulsively traditional, from easygoing and well-adjusted to the most neurotic people you'll ever see. I know I'm describing superficial traits, and that this isn't supposed to be definitive of Ennea-type. Yet I'm skeptical that people who are outwardly radically different from one another have something similar going on on the inside. I tend to think that the internal machinations of every person's psyche can be inferred to some degree by their behavior and outward traits, and the lack of such things for 9w1 makes me wonder whether the type (and type 9 in general) refers to anything in particular. And to say, "Nines are so different because their tritype and stack plays such a large role" seems like an attempt to avoid answering the question.
I don't mean to sound argumentative and long-winded. I really do appreciate your and everyone else's responses to my question.
I have deeply analyzed your post and I am of the opinion that you are as you now believe, a 5w4.
My impression is that your 5 component at a personal engaged level is sp/so and at inner- personal level is so/sx and at the interpersonal level so/sp.
My impression of your 4 wing or 4 is that it is sx orientated like a tri-fixated, meaning that it mimics 396 with an overcompensated actual/emotional/identity play 2 5 7. Signasomatic activity.
The three, is passable so/sp understanding ideas ego-agresive or assertive, (8) and ego supported by the second step (I) of analysis (at point:2), bolstered with in the (7-2) interpersonal component, dynamic of S (emotion) and I (Actual) witch is most likely a machination, led by your 5 identity with in its; perpetual "story", as your emotional ebb and flow, meaning and meaning. Soma-senificant (5)/ signa somtic (4).
You are mostly likely sx (Fixated internally) repressed, witch may make you Id orientated witch in; bolsters your sx fix and concentrates your (1 experience and detection), vie the 1, 2, and third step of your core 5.
The first being, Identity point 5 sx/so, the 5 Core of your type.
The second, being your point of disintegration at point 7, if you are intact a 5, 5w4. Emotion (S) point 7.
And last your personal, (E) at point 1, Sp, (ingage - ment / Identity 5 Design 4), within an interpersonal transaction of a manner of your liking Sp/So.
At this injunction you may with the 4 also in mind remembering that 4 integrates to 1, realize that the 9w1 may be identity typing of the past may most likely stem from the (personal), 8 - 1 Narrative Experience, loop or line of connection. So/Sp and Sp/So have a strong connection with, Relating as Id and type 9 as being most out of touch with its ability to sustain contemporized neo intellectual vascular relations.
But to keep it simple; your self as a secondary type, there is some fog that is between self and true sight of the compass and this is the perplex in not confidently understanding the nines/ 9w1 flux in personified nature as you spoke of within your post.
Rich
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 11:42:22 PM [quote]Originally posted by Corruption
I wonder why sp/so appears to be taken as code for 'really sensible' or 'I never go off the rails or do anything a bit mad or impulsive'?
Maybe this is what it is supposed to mean but I don't really buy the whole stacking thing anyway so am naturally cynical about anything said about stackings. ( end quote )
Being SP-SO is not as important as being a SJ, for my wife and myself....
Corruption, you SHOULD be cynical about most of the assertions that are supposed to be solid " truth ". There are exceptions for everything. And there is always the existential question, if they are actually the same type, how come they are so different? The only Enneagram panel, I ever went, was on the 3 subtypes. Its no better than seeing a bunch of people with the same MB type, some similarity with a lot of no matching at all! /
ISTJ & SP-3W4, DISC:High-DSC Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles HER:SP-2W1 & ISFJ; Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles My philosophy of life: Love will get you through. I learned to dissemble at an early age.
Corruption
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 8:48:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by sappy
yeah
I wonder if that equation proves that I'm sp/so. I'm obviously terrified of it, all my friends wouldn't speak with me anymore, I'm afraid. Pity I only hang out with shallow bastards.
I wonder why sp/so appears to be taken as code for 'really sensible' or 'I never go off the rails or do anything a bit mad or impulsive'?
Maybe this is what it is supposed to mean but I don't really buy the whole stacking thing anyway so am naturally cynical about anything said about stackings.
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