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T O P I C R E V I E W
enneathing
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 12:56:20 PM Questions for those who type as soc first, or others if you want -
Do you consider yourself as having insight into group and social dynamics?
Do you find yourself becoming affiliated or identified with a group that has a shared interest? For example,
Would you consider yourself 'empathetic' to other people?
Do you have a fear of 'messing up' or saying the wrong thing in a given situation where people are watching?
Are you or has there been a time in your life where you were making a conscious effort to 'fit in'?
Has there been a time in your life when you did exact opposite of this, as in making no effort to fit in and rather being misanthropic?
Would you consider yourself good at conversing with others?
Would you say that you are aware of the world around you, and want to find and establish your 'place' in it?
How do you think the social instinct is misrepresented if at all? Do you think that maybe the descriptions put a bit to much focus on 'status seeking' and actual socializing, when really that's not what the social instinct is about? You may think that is what it's about, but if not... what do you think the social instinct is about?
Are you friendly and joking, or more distant and aloof?
Why do you self-type as social first?
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
enneathing
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 11:05:34 AM
quote:Why would any type just want to show off an image? Because they think they are that image? Then why need to show it?
Because they want others to see them as valuable in some way.
quote:The image isn't lived from so others can see it, it's lived from so the image type person can 'locate' their identity, so any disparity between their own and the feedback they get is either ignored or met with hostility. To take image as what you show to others is an incredibly simplistic.
Image isn't just what you show others, no. The way the 4 approaches image is often more internal after all - creating certain self-images through imagination. This is probably why you're emphasizing image as self-concept. However, I still think, while it does have to do with what the image triader wants to see themselves as, it also has a hell of a lot to do with what they want to show others, how they want to appear, what they want to be seen as in the eyes of others. Head types and gut types are not preoccupied with this to the same degree.
quote:She emphasized image projection. I emphasize image as self concept.
I emphasize that image triaders are concerned with how they appear to others... even if they may not want to admit it.
whitelila
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 8:11:54 PM Orph, on a more serious note, do you still type your dad a sp5w6?
whitelila
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 7:48:07 PM Why would you care?
My take is that both points are valid. at least for some image types.
God knows about your butthole. that's too magic and well connected to ponder. I think it has silver glitter instead of gold. You seem like a silver glitter type of guy.
Orpheus
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 4:38:22 PM Is that intended to disprove my point?
well. I'm with a 3w2. There is a lot of image projection going on with him.
He has a stroy about one of the scariest moment of his life. It was a job interview and the person asked him "who are you"? He started talking about his job.. and the person said, "who are you other than your job?"
He froze in utter terror. He had no real self concept other than his achievements and his promotion of them.
Orpheus
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 1:52:37 PM She emphasized image projection. I emphasize image as self concept.
quote:Why would any type just want to show off an image? Because they think they are that image? Then why need to show it?
Is that what she said?
I heard her say pretty much the exact same thing you just said in your reply, but in a more broad brush way.
This was the only difference..
quote:Believing the personal qualities they show others (whether helpful/martyrdom, productivity/achievement/'winner', specialness/depth/artistry) make up worth, trying to compensate for a lack of feeling inherently worthy... through the validation of others. It is about image projection, actually.
vs.
quote:The image isn't lived from so others can see it, it's lived from so the image type person can 'locate' their identity so any disparity between their own and the feedback they get is either ignored or met with hostility
Both are correct, imo.
Image types can really let themselves go if they don't have an audience.
Orpheus
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 1:13:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by enneathing
quote:It is different for 5s, but what is misunderstood about 'image' when talking about image types is that it's distortion around the image they have of themselves, any projection is 2ndary to that.
I disagree. I would argue that everyone has a distorted image of themselves (or at least, many people of many different types do), it's the image triaders that want to be seen a certain way... There is a certain kind of self-deceit, with 3 being the core of the triad, this deceit being that they believe that image they're showing others is them, or what constitutes their worth. Believing the personal qualities they show others (whether helpful/martyrdom, productivity/achievement/'winner', specialness/depth/artistry) make up worth, trying to compensate for a lack of feeling inherently worthy... through the validation of others. It is about image projection, actually.
Why would any type just want to show off an image? Because they think they are that image? Then why need to show it?
The image component of feeling types best explained In Tom condon's video on the feeling Triad. In it he explains that rather than being in the experience, the image type has a kind of picture of themselves doing the action/being a way that they're relating from rather than being directly in the experience. 'this is what a successful person does'. Deceit if 3 is mistaking that idea for the truth of oneself. In the case of 4, 'I'm flawed' is the image with a compensatory idealized image of how theyd like to be.
For some image types, direct feedback from others is very important, but as you may have observed that image types can be totally oblivious and inattentive to the real feedback they get. Im sure a 3 wouldnt give a [blocked] what you thought so long as they believed they were living up to thier ideal of a successful person, likewise an average 2 cares what you think only in so far as it allows them to see themselves as loving. The image isn't lived from so others can see it, it's lived from so the image type person can 'locate' their identity, so any disparity between their own and the feedback they get is either ignored or met with hostility. To take image as what you show to others is an incredibly simplistic.
Given that we're speaking of 5s and image, 5s have a self image of being small and incapable (avarice) with compensating Grandiosity, however, the fixation identifies primarily with the mental center, so the difference is that locating ones identity isn't the issue , but strategy and guidance. We could do a similar examination of head issues playing out in a 2 or 8.
If you have an ego, you are actively pursuing a self concept, an image, and want that to be understood 'they really get me' generally means 'agree with my self concept' for most people (rather than real intimacy or communication). We have every type in us, so even if 6 is extremely foreign to me, there's a kind of disowning my own inner guidance and an accompanying cowardice. The same is true that a kind of deciet, pride and envy run in all types no matter ones tritype subwing trisub triforce. ________________________________
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 11:33:53 AM I agree with both above post by enneathing.
enneathing
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 08:56:37 AM
quote:It is different for 5s, but what is misunderstood about 'image' when talking about image types is that it's distortion around the image they have of themselves, any projection is 2ndary to that.
I disagree. I would argue that everyone has a distorted image of themselves (or at least, many people of many different types do), it's the image triaders that want to be seen a certain way... There is a certain kind of self-deceit, with 3 being the core of the triad, this deceit being that they believe that image they're showing others is them, or what constitutes their worth. Believing the personal qualities they show others (whether helpful/martyrdom, productivity/achievement/'winner', specialness/depth/artistry) make up worth, trying to compensate for a lack of feeling inherently worthy... through the validation of others. It is about image projection, actually.
enneathing
Posted - 04 Jun 2012 : 08:30:15 AM I think some of the problems I'm having with 'SOC' first, is that the social 4 is more likely to emphasis their aloneness/separateness.... especially in the context of a group. More than sp or sx 4. The social instinct is about both connection and disconnection.
The social instinct in other types is not necessarily how it's perceived ... it can be 'involvement' or even extroversion in certain types, in other types it can manifest as something quite different.
Orpheus
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 1:18:12 PM Scoobie- You asked about 9. At level 2 9s try to locate a grounded, relaxed engagement with reality by identifying with the instinct center, trying to make sure that groundedness of being is still here. Between level 3 and 4 is a shock where the instinct/moving center disconnects from the other two centers (goes into a box made of resistance and anger), creating a split and lack of communication of centers - either doing things automatically with habits and the body 'being mode', doing without content, or doing nothing. or dreaming of possibilities but without grounding or connection, day dream mode, creative thoughts and inspirations 'long list of books I could have written' without actually writing them.
This is disassociation, one center not affected by the other two. The feeling and thinking centers scramble together. 'as long as my being doesn't connect with my psychological content i can continue to locate my habitual sense of self. ' have to connect where they are with cognition of what is here and needed. To reconnect the centers means to recall memories and pain that would disturb the 9s sense of self, cause development.
Most of these notes are from Russ
The way the centers scramble is what determines type, which is G's chief feature, how they are scrambled is gurdjieffs 'formatory apparatus'. ________________________________
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 11:08:50 AM no, 50 cent was actually one of the first enneagram teachers
Stormy
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 04:30:25 AM
quote:Originally posted by Orpheus
quote:Originally posted by skunk
Is this originally Gurdjiefian? It seems a very elegant way of conceptualising it.
The attribution of 'deadly sins' or passions to the heart center is very old, possibly to Jewish desert fathers, but it's a mix of g-unit, ichazo and Russ hudson's particular way of phrasing it.
"G-unit" = Gurdjieff?
- [Stormy]
Orpheus
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 04:06:31 AM
quote:Originally posted by skunk
quote:Originally posted by Orpheus
The passions are the suffering in the heart that we run through the instincts and use to prop the mental fixation.
Is this originally Gurdjiefian? It seems a very elegant way of conceptualising it.
The attribution of 'deadly sins' or passions to the heart center is very old, possibly to Jewish desert fathers, but it's a mix of g-unit, ichazo and Russ hudson's particular way of phrasing it.
quote:Originally posted by Orpheus Because sense of the lack of vitality is generated by a self image produced from a particular kind of perceived wounding in the heart. Type isn't just mental, it's a nervous system, and to understand this heart component may take more experiential approach to working with the heart center.
i think the problem is not so much that i do not have experience with my heart so much as my specific ideas on the concept of avarice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."
-- Wikipedia article on Alpha Oumar Konare, leader of Mali.
skunk
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 8:44:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by Orpheus
The passions are the suffering in the heart that we run through the instincts and use to prop the mental fixation.
Is this originally Gurdjiefian? It seems a very elegant way of conceptualising it.
whitelila
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 5:29:04 PM
quote:Lila, yes, but there's a self image informing avarice that keeps one in fear of overwhelm. That's why it's a passion which is attributed to the heart center.
circuits frying. I have used up my energy allotment to respond to this subject.
Orpheus
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 4:48:47 PM Lila, yes, but there's a self image informing avarice that keeps one in fear of overwhelm. That's why it's a passion which is attributed to the heart center.
-scoobs, I'm in Italy now, but when I get energy, yes.
quote: I wasn't saying that being in the 'image triad' means being influenced by others or lacking independence - I said that despite possibly having image issues, 5 may not let how others see the types affect their own judgement. In saying that, I wasn't implying that image triaders would necessarily be influenced by others, or let others affect their judgement. Anyway, my initial statement was mainly a joke commenting on how around half the self-typed soc firsts who had answered had been 5s rather than anything serious, and I suspect after seeing something you saw as easily attackable you went ahead with the '5s absolutely care about image etc', which I already knew fwiw.
poor enneathing.
quote: It seems you think you're communicating something of depth by saying that everyone projects an image, but I don't think it's anything new to most people here. I would be worried if it was.
No, I don't think I was saying anything of depth, that's why I found it so obnoxious that I had to spell it out and argue about it - are you even paying attention? It's a reoccurring projection of yours that I attribute some depth to what I say, but I'm not even offering much in the way of my own insights, just rehashing basics.
quote: Basically, I think image types are most affected by feelings of shame of being seen a certain way. They have they're own self-perceptions they want validated by certain others to affirm their self-worth and sense of self, and get too caught up in trying to appear in this way. They are not necessarily any less independent than any other type, and while they may use others to affirm their own self-image, I don't think they're any more likely to be influenced by others. 5s are different in that I don't think they seek the validation of others in the same way.
quote: It is different for 5s, but what is misunderstood about 'image' when talking about image types is that it's distortion around the image they have of themselves, any projection is 2ndary to that.
quote: i suppose i would put it differently and i don't see why the insufficiency that 5s see comes necessarily from the heart center. using language that has nothing to do with centers, i would describe this as saying "5s feel that they do not have enough vitality to get by." how is this related to the heart center? i feel as though the heart center you are referring to is something more abstract than what i am familiar with.
Because sense of the lack of vitality is generated by a self image produced from a particular kind of perceived wounding in the heart. Type isn't just mental, it's a nervous system, and to understand this heart component may take more experiential approach to working with the heart center.
quote: again, at the risk of repeating myself -- what i am suggesting is not that fives have no image orientation. i am saying that the passion of avarice is not particularly oriented towards one's image. but, it seems like we have on some level a fundamentally different idea of what an ego is.
this comment about image in the context of attractiveness strikes me again as unrelated to avarice -- in enneagram terms you could say again something like, the sexual instinct which is present to greater or lesser degrees is a fundamental drive which contains a component of concerning oneself with one's image to attract a mate, and that drive is filtered through the passion of avarice which does not do much to it.
I say 'someone you find attractive' because it would be someone you place a kind of value in and can't disregard or write off. Even in writing someone off, there is a self image and sense of self value at play. When talking to someone you are attracted to in some capacity, whether physically or that you respect them, there is a sense of self you are working from in relating and an idea of self you are putting forward.
The question is then why those who don't type as soc first want to respond.
I can only speak for myself: I often think that I might be a "flipped" social first, but then again, 9s have a need to feel connected anyway, and might just need people more than other types, so, I wanted to add my experience in case anyone had feedback or wanted to discuss it more.
Speaking for myself, I wanted to talk about myself.
- [Stormy]
sunny
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 12:46:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by sunny
quote:Originally posted by Galen
I don't understand why non-social-first people are responding to the op D:
Questions for those who type as soc first, or others if you want -
The question is then why those who don't type as soc first want to respond.
- [Stormy]
I can only speak for myself: I often think that I might be a "flipped" social first, but then again, 9s have a need to feel connected anyway, and might just need people more than other types, so, I wanted to add my experience in case anyone had feedback or wanted to discuss it more.
-----------------------
Glasgow
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 10:11:41 AM
quote:Originally posted by enneathing
Questions for those who type as soc first, or others if you want -
Do you consider yourself as having insight into group and social dynamics?
im not aware so much. yes and no. general , rough, not detailed.
Do you find yourself becoming affiliated or identified with a group that has a shared interest? no , not so much. Would you consider yourself 'empathetic' to other people?
puhhh. i dont know. yes and no. sometimes .
Do you have a fear of 'messing up' or saying the wrong thing in a given situation where people are watching? no. im not aware of that. i dont give a shhit. maby im cp in this regard (darkside so/sx). though you cannot say everything in any situation . e.g at work.
Are you or has there been a time in your life where you were making a conscious effort to 'fit in'? yeah. teenager, clothes e.g.
Has there been a time in your life when you did exact opposite of this, as in making no effort to fit in and rather being misanthropic? no
Would you consider yourself good at conversing with others? yeah, normally.
Would you say that you are aware of the world around you, and want to find and establish your 'place' in it? yeah, absolutly.
How do you think the social instinct is misrepresented if at all? no Do you think that maybe the descriptions put a bit to much focus on 'status seeking' and actual socializing, when really that's not what the social instinct is about? no You may think that is what it's about, but if not... what do you think the social instinct is about? its about status, socializing, social adjustment, image, adapting, broadcasting, social shame etc
Are you friendly and joking, or more distant and aloof? friendly and joking !! Why do you self-type as social first? because of my broadcasting and adapting e.g.
whitelila
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 09:15:46 AM
quote:Do you consider yourself as having insight into group and social dynamics?
Yes, to a degree. However, it has only been in the last couple years that it passed my mind that people might talk about me when i was not around. The concept of people caring enough to even give me a second thought was kind of an epiphany. The idea that anything I do or say matters enough for gossip is a weird idea, I hardly say anything about my life. Instinctively I know to keep my secrets secret.
quote:Do you find yourself becoming affiliated or identified with a group that has a shared interest? For example,
In a very limited manner.
quote:Would you consider yourself 'empathetic' to other people.
Only if someone is a target.
quote:Do you have a fear of 'messing up' or saying the wrong thing in a given situation where people are watching?
I know there are things I can't say. so I don't say them.
quote:Are you or has there been a time in your life where you were making a conscious effort to 'fit in'?
If I tried.. it was when i was very young.. and the outcome was not satisfying.
quote:Has there been a time in your life when you did exact opposite of this, as in making no effort to fit in and rather being misanthropic?
yes.
quote:Would you consider yourself good at conversing with others?
good enough.
quote:Would you say that you are aware of the world around you, and want to find and establish your 'place' in it?
I don't really care about my place in the world. That concept is too large. You might as well ask about my place in the galaxy.
quote:How do you think the social instinct is misrepresented if at all? Do you think that maybe the descriptions put a bit to much focus on 'status seeking' and actual socializing, when really that's not what the social instinct is about? You may think that is what it's about, but if not... what do you think the social instinct is about?
i think it is about over focus on many people, not just one. But if you want the truth, I think I am strong in all 3 instincts. I think they work like a clock, I focus on different instincts at different times. I neglect and obsess over my health. My social seems a given so I put little thought into it. It comes without much effort. It is like knowing how to dance. some people can dance without much effort. My sexual instinct is a weird animal. I risk a lot for it. But not enough to mess up my sp stability. Safety first..
But you know my sx and self-preservation have often been connected. I would imagine marilyn monroe would understand what i'm talking about. With sx 6.. sx is often about sp.
quote:Are you friendly and joking, or more distant and aloof?
friendly and joking.
quote:Why do you self-type as social first?
i don't. However Rosh once said my social was so high as to be almost first. Others, most others, type me as strong sx first.a few have placed me at sp second. As i get older my sp gets stronger. But you know.. i have always had a pretty good relationship with all my instincts.
aestrivex
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 03:22:49 AM
quote:Originally posted by Orpheus You speak so authoritatively and with a great deal of condescension about subjects to which you understand very little.
i speak only with the authority of my own sense of reason and my individual observations. i feel as though there is wisdom to be gleamed in the things you are saying (which maybe comes from your presentation, which is no less arrogant), but that i do not understand any of it. and, indeed, i have strong views on this topic, because i have been thinking about it for a long time and i believe i know a great deal -- though i have a great deal to learn, as well.
quote: Avarice is the feeling that ones heart is dry and insufficient. Therefore the heart becomes cut off from contact. That is why 5s seek withdrawal and detachment, and why real contact by the heart and body are what develops 5s to real perception in 3 centers.
i suppose i would put it differently and i don't see why the insufficiency that 5s see comes necessarily from the heart center. using language that has nothing to do with centers, i would describe this as saying "5s feel that they do not have enough vitality to get by." how is this related to the heart center? i feel as though the heart center you are referring to is something more abstract than what i am familiar with.
quote: Instead of wasting both of our time, I suggest actually doing some research into the nature of this thing you claim insight into. And before you make some claim about any type not having an image investment, step outside and see how you do in a conversation with anyone, especially someone you don't know who you find attractive.
again, at the risk of repeating myself -- what i am suggesting is not that fives have no image orientation. i am saying that the passion of avarice is not particularly oriented towards one's image. but, it seems like we have on some level a fundamentally different idea of what an ego is.
this comment about image in the context of attractiveness strikes me again as unrelated to avarice -- in enneagram terms you could say again something like, the sexual instinct which is present to greater or lesser degrees is a fundamental drive which contains a component of concerning oneself with one's image to attract a mate, and that drive is filtered through the passion of avarice which does not do much to it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."
-- Wikipedia article on Alpha Oumar Konare, leader of Mali.
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