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T O P I C R E V I E W
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 12:27:43 PM Say you grew up with a chronically doubtful and self-deflecting type 9 parent, who put all their attention on you so they didn't have to focus on themselves. Overly protected, overly worried about, and very much under-believed in ('How could you possibly know that or how to do that' was something I heard constantly. If she didn't witness someone telling me exactly how to do something, she couldn't understand how I could learn anything on my own.)
What if you are an image type? Does this self-consicousness become your image?
What if you are a head type? Does this talk become your self-talk?
What if you are a gut type? Are you chronically afraid of being seen (and 'being) because you feel so overly attuned to that anything you do you feel will be picked at?
Well, I'll answer yes. I'm just spitting out ideas here, uncohesive but perhaps someone can add to this topic of self-consciousness vs. self-image.
I've been told that it's time to let go of my mom's image of me..to stop living out her idea of me. I never really thought I was but with such close contact with her in her old and unhealthy age, it's clear her manipulation of me and my devotion? or willingness to go along, to swallow it and accept it.
24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
threadbare
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 11:36:39 PM My mom was similar in that she distrusted people with large ears and she always told me being smart didnt matter. I just felt really held back regarding my intellect. I've considered her as a nine or seven.
oceanlife
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 5:30:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lake
O-life,
Care-giving is the hardest job on the planet, imo, especially in a situation like yours. It sounds like you are doing the best you know how in such a tragic situation.
I used to do body work on several caregivers, and the stuff I found was insane--so clearly not all theirs.
I hope you are taking care of yourself, and that you have some people and/or work in your life which lifts you up.
*it's not about finding yourself, it's about realizing who you've been all along.
thank you Lake, very much.
oceanlife
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 12:25:01 PM
quote:Originally posted by shakti
Wow. If you feel at peace with having done what you can, then my suggestion would be to do your own work as if she is already gone. Releasing her to enjoy whatever breaths of life she has left, whatever cents or dollars she has, whatever space she has, that have become symbolic of this epic struggle that she would rather check out so completely than face or participate in. It is possible that looking out for her well being in a holistic manner is just not something she can cognitively allow.
If it is any consolation, some flavor of what you are experiencing is a wider (planetary) thing. For myself, I articulate this as a moment of personal choice between whether life energy is flowing to addiction to the old comfort zone or in service to something greater.
It's possible she is sp/sx and that she is not facing sp stuff and that she worried about soc stuff for you because it is something she worries about for herself. I hope you are able to release what does not belong to you.
Getting her home from the convalescent home was a chore, and what was driving my frustration at the start of this thread. She was panicked and new how easily she could fall back on old bad habits of being 'isolated' at home (even though that was exactly what she's always wanted. 'Don't bother me or try to change my habits.')
So now that she's home I can't be there 24/7 and as soon as I walk out the door anything I've done or said can be subverted in an instant. Even talking to her she can just tell me what I want to hear, or agree and then not do it, with a patronizing 'ok honey thanks I love you.' Then I get the call from the nurse saying she refused whatever treatment, or called them to cancel the day's visits.
So yes of course she checked out a long long time ago, and like level 8 or 9 says, 'facing her life the way it is in order to turn things around is just too much.' She would have to face SO much...but man, just letting things deteriorate on the slide that they are in, that's just easier huh.
As for your last sentence Shakti, yes, I'm working on that. There's so much I've taken on to protect her from herself...for all these years as the oldest and I suppose the Good Son. Which is a responsibility and a self-sacrifice that's also at a cost.
This is something that's come up in therapy...how I've thought I had to accept her version of me, even though I knew it was false. I figured I could handle it, and would still be able to let my real self out somewhere else, but not in relation to her. It's a reason I've avoided her for many years in my adulthood. I didn't want to play that game yet couldn't call it off either, directly to her. I think I believed it would crush her, to know how wrong she was about me all this time. And to not be known by your mom, one's only parent, to me is crushing. It's a despair I carry around, thats leaked into my daily world where ever I am.
sunny
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 3:21:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by eidbuser
It's good to see that there's a whole spectrum of 9s. The most common understanding of 9 is of those on one end of the spectrum.
I've recently come to the understanding that my mother is most likely a 9. The interesting thing is that with her, I never felt seen. She seemed to be off in another world somehow, not totally attuned or present with me. My mother always seemed oddly surprised when I could do something on my own, or when I was more intelligent than she thought. I got the feeling that I was constantly being under-estimated. Whenever she was surprised by me, it didn't make me feel special in that moment. It made me feel as though she never saw the specialness and potential that was already there.
So it has created an element of self-doubt in me, where I don't really believe in myself, or don't feel I'm all that great. It's hard to see myself as really great, even when people tell me I have all these great qualities. Inside, there's a part of me that doesn't feel special, seen, or understood at all.
I have a narcissistic side to me, a side that really does see specialness in me, and another side that has no ability to integrate my good qualities. This part always undercuts my ability to shine, because I hold back out of shame, insecurity, or feeling that I'm really not that good or lovable to anyone.
You're so right here eidbuser. imo, this is so important. This speaks to both the idea that there is a vast spectrum for all types and also to the core issue and world view of 9s.
-----------------------
Lake
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 12:04:05 AM
quote:Originally posted by shakti
If it is any consolation, some flavor of what you are experiencing is a wider (planetary) thing.
can/would you elaborate on this in more detail, please?
*it's not about finding yourself, it's about realizing who you've been all along.
Lake
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 11:58:46 PM O-life,
Care-giving is the hardest job on the planet, imo, especially in a situation like yours. It sounds like you are doing the best you know how in such a tragic situation.
I used to do body work on several caregivers, and the stuff I found was insane--so clearly not all theirs.
I hope you are taking care of yourself, and that you have some people and/or work in your life which lifts you up.
*it's not about finding yourself, it's about realizing who you've been all along.
shakti
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 11:36:09 PM Wow. If you feel at peace with having done what you can, then my suggestion would be to do your own work as if she is already gone. Releasing her to enjoy whatever breaths of life she has left, whatever cents or dollars she has, whatever space she has, that have become symbolic of this epic struggle that she would rather check out so completely than face or participate in. It is possible that looking out for her well being in a holistic manner is just not something she can cognitively allow.
If it is any consolation, some flavor of what you are experiencing is a wider (planetary) thing. For myself, I articulate this as a moment of personal choice between whether life energy is flowing to addiction to the old comfort zone or in service to something greater.
It's possible she is sp/sx and that she is not facing sp stuff and that she worried about soc stuff for you because it is something she worries about for herself. I hope you are able to release what does not belong to you.
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:54:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by shakti
olife, that sounds awful. It doesn't seem like in the realm of something she can address very easily though. It feels like the body has taken over attempting to get her what she needs--perhaps the right to have her life and do what she wants. It is like she is a victim to the situation and not participating in that though she has accomplished something that is a personal truth in spite of her non-cooperation.
100% correct. Thank you Shakti. I'm seeing level 8-9, automaton + shattered shell. Completely non-participating. The irony is the anti-depression meds can get her by and can stimulate some fleeting pleasant conversation but it's sad to know that without them she could care less.
Yes, the personal truth of striving for autonomy. And it had to be reached by this?
I've never been able to stack her, but she seems sp/sx. Especially from old photos. Very insular. Yet she pushed being 'social' on me so much that I can't even grasp it. She just thought of me as a complete social risk. 'What would happen to me in the world? My god the horror.' Despite her own lack of social motivation....strange. Yet she seemed always poor with money and organization that seemed SP last. But now all she clings to is SP stuff.
shakti
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:41:49 PM olife, that sounds awful. It doesn't seem like in the realm of something she can address very easily though. It feels like the body has taken over attempting to get her what she needs--perhaps the right to have her life and do what she wants. It is like she is a victim to the situation and not participating in that though she has accomplished something that is a personal truth in spite of her non-cooperation.
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:30:46 PM
quote:Originally posted by Rich
In line with what Whitelila says, there is the whole 9ish attitude about things never brought up. Things that everybody actually knows about, but that must never be actually mention in public.... As time goes on, family talk becomes only small talk. The mountains of stuff that has been amassed is never processed, or even recognized as existing. And, things like there never being displays of emotions publicly....
SO SO, true. Exactly. No one actually relates, our only conversations are transactional. Bare minimum. No emotion..all buried anger and twisted rationalizations.
quote: One thing that Oceanlife should keep in mind is that individual differences like MB types can make huge differences. My 9W8 mother was a SJ, who loved to read. She would HAVE EXPECTED Ocean life to study and read up on whatever knowledge he needed. His mother is no more a representative example of E 9 than my mother was.... /
My mom is probably INFP like me. We relate only on a weird cosmic level. We can ponder together and have similar strange dry sense of humor. But she is just completely detached from herself. She's getting what she's wanted, yet you can't deny all of us around her...the kids, our families. Oh you can try though...
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:24:06 PM Lake, I very much understand what you are saying. It seems you know of your stubbornness but have a pretty healthy boundary system and clearer stated wishes for others in relationship. I don't know if my mom was ever like this.
And where she is is so beyond what you are saying. I wish it were about respecting her personality style. There's just absolutely no 'give' on her part, in a give and take relational style. I think for almost a lifetime she's just wanted to be left alone. She clings (understandably) to the loss of her husband when he was 45, which was 24 years ago. 'He should be here.' She's given up ever since, slowly but surely shutting down.
Without too much detail, she's expecting to leave what should have been a generous inheritance to her kids, and it's being frivolously wasted, and has been for years. By not taking care of herself (and she is doing much less than bare minimum), she is going to have to go to assisted living and sell off her assets including the house we grew up in, first spending all her money on private pay and then coverage through Medicare (only when you have absolutely nothing left). Emotionally she does not want to do that, but would rather put up a front and slowly die in the house, day by day. There will be no money left for anyone and at 69 she looks like she's 85 and cannot sustain life for 10+ years like this. And we are at the point where I have to spell this out for her, very very clearly. Yet she lives in the land of much delusion, illusion, and wishful thinking. So in the meantime I'm an elderly homecare nurse, with a patient that tries to placate me but could give a [blocked] about anything, especially herself and us.
I really appreciate the 'detaching' advice, however this is 20+ years of buildup and terribly sad, absolutely preventable tragedies.
And yup, this is my mom. So there's that.
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 10:08:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by whitelila
You cannot always be the hero child. soetimes you have to learn to detach. Be well.
True to my first-born-ness. I appreciate this Lila. A willing 'hero' in a system that's so broken. I'm being patronized as the One Who's Doing So Much but subversion is a way of life for our family. I've realized that much of what I'm doing is for me. I need to know I tried. This is important for right now. Knowing better I can't just ignore and placate and play along with everyone's delusions.
It's not even subversion...maybe there's a better word. Though to them I do represent a logical authority, which ultimately they will passive-aggressively resist and bring down. Cause who wants to be denied their illusions and addictions?
ha.
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 9:53:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by skyboy
Reccuring thoughts about how you could be percieved, what is the specific thing about you that will be rejected/disliked, who you are in all the possible judging mirrors you see in your background, what is the next reason to hate or compare yourself to others... This is how type 4 comments constantly your own story.
And if your mother is encouraging, valuing your abilities, paying attention to you positively, you'll withdraw to have the time and space to give food to self hatred another way. Your type will Find the reasons it's looking for. It's adaptive... :-)
um, yea
EU seems we have a similarity there..
Rich
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 4:53:58 PM In line with what Whitelila says, there is the whole 9ish attitude about things never brought up. Things that everybody actually knows about, but that must never be actually mention in public.... As time goes on, family talk becomes only small talk. The mountains of stuff that has been amassed is never processed, or even recognized as existing. And, things like there never being displays of emotions publicly....
One thing that Oceanlife should keep in mind is that individual differences like MB types can make huge differences. My 9W8 mother was a SJ, who loved to read. She would HAVE EXPECTED Ocean life to study and read up on whatever knowledge he needed. His mother is no more a representative example of E 9 than my mother was.... /
ISTJ & SP-3W4, DISC:High-DSC Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles HER:SP-2W1 & ISFJ; Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles My philosophy of life: Love will get you through. I learned to dissemble at an early age.
Lake
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 4:48:28 PM My dad is a 9.
And, actually, I'm a 9, and watch myself do the same thing--I instinctively reject any sort of pressure when I'm overly stressed (and/or unhealthy), b/c it feels like I will explode like an A-bomb if I start giving in. At those times, the only people allowed in are those whom I can tell don't want to 'force' (very relative, here) anything on me, nor expect anything from me. The emotions, opinions, and agendas of other people (as I perceive them) can seem a threat to my very being.
My mother is an sp-3, so I have a double denial-of-feelings parental influence, and (despite the fact that i can feel simultaneously hopelessly lost and confused, if only unconsciously) i usually have a strong "I can do it myself" attitude.
I want and need what I do to be my decision, and I will do that when I am damn good and ready. Pain in the butt, I know.
I know I recognize love during stressful times when someone can show me somehow that they are just a phone call away if I should need them. I'm also rarely closed off to humor, and to simple, thoughtful gestures, both of which can humble me in the best of ways, get me to laugh at myself, and feel positively towards the other person. Another thing, often just sitting with me--just being there (reading, watching a movie, and/or playing a game)--even (sometimes especially) w/o talking--can be the best medicine.
O-life,
What lila said is true, as heart-breaking as it is.
All you can do is tell your mom genuinely how you feel, and then back off.
You can't make someone love themself, no matter how much you may love them.
Clinging to them beyond that ends up turning back around, and being destructive for you..
*hug* Best.
*it's not about finding yourself, it's about realizing who you've been all along.
whitelila
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 3:45:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
quote:Originally posted by jevoudrais
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
I never really thought I was...
Ah, the classic 9 mistake. I see it like a Ven diagram, whereas 4s always underestimate the overlap between two individuals, 9s always overestimate it. Thus, phrases like, "Oh, no, I don't have a problem with you because of that..." when they do have a problem with you. Because of that. The message in the bottle for 9s is still lost at sea. They think, "Eh, the message is there though, in the sea. That is the same as finding the bottle and reading it."
I certainly understand this. It resonates on a level (and so right about 9's in this way). My mom is a 9 at levels 6-8, incredibly unhealthy. So I am directly dealing with outright lying and covering up. 'Mom did you sleep in the bed last night (which I took apart and brought downstairs)?' 'Yea.' Meanwhile the sheets hadn't moved and she told the nurse that her neck hurts from sleeping on the couch for a week.
I'm at my breaking point. She wants everyone off her case and will just lie and not tell me things. What's unsaid can't be criticized ('mom you shouldn't eat oreos everyday when you are diabetic and have your friend go get them for you'). It's 'Have you seen anyone else today?' 'Oh, no.'
I'm trying to confront and route out my own learned/inherited habits like these from her, yet still do not think it makes me a full on 9. I can do shades of this behavior. I do understand that if you don't say anything, others don't know. Often with her it will be 'Didn't you tell the doctor that you were doing such-and-such?' And the reply is 'He didn't ask.' And the underlying message is, 'He didn't ask me specifically, so I was able to not bring it up.'
With 9's (and her in particular) I see OVERWHELMINGLY clear how they can withhold anything. *Especially* if you don't ask directly. And even then, it's so easy to just lie. 'Bury it. Forget it. It didn't happen.' Bullsh_t.
I can understand because I was taught that. It's easy to keep your mouth shut.
BUT, I also have much more. She only has peace/content or resistance.
You cannot always be the hero child. soetimes you have to learn to detach. Be well.
Rich
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 3:34:19 PM [quote]Originally posted by oceanlife
Say you grew up with a chronically doubtful and self-deflecting type 9 parent, who put all their attention on you so they didn't have to focus on themselves. Overly protected, overly worried about, and very much under-believed in ('How could you possibly know that or how to do that' was something I heard constantly. If she didn't witness someone telling me exactly how to do something, she couldn't understand how I could learn anything on my own.)
What if you are an image type? Does this self-consicousness become your image? ( end quote )
Its a little more complicated for me.... My mother was a 9W8-ESFJ, while my father was an 8W9-ESTJ. My mother mostly raised us, since my considered child rearing " women's work ". All 6 of us has a strong 9W8 tinge to us. My experience is nothing like yours, Oceanlife! You do your assigned tasks and jobs, you don't complain, you don't shirk you duty, and don't pretend to be sick, etc. Nobody has the right to interfere with your free time and interests. Pay attention to what people think and like about you, make the family proud!
My father introduced competition and even more need for respectability and conventionality. As an image type, I grew up with, " I'll show you, and its payback time " attitudes. " I was not accepted for who I am ( My mother called me " a Teddy Bear " ) Since 3 is an aggressive type, I ended up as the family contrarian, telling all just how corrupt the conventional system truly is.... /
ISTJ & SP-3W4, DISC:High-DSC Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles HER:SP-2W1 & ISFJ; Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles My philosophy of life: Love will get you through. I learned to dissemble at an early age.
skyboy
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 2:38:43 PM Head talk is not especially about mind types. It's not about a type. The recurring content of the head talk is significant of the type.
For example, If you keep on thinking about the next catastrope to come and how you or someone else will be able to deal with it, you're a 6.
Reccuring thoughts about how you could be percieved, what is the specific thing about you that will be rejected/disliked, who you are in all the possible judging mirrors you see in your background, what is the next reason to hate or compare yourself to others... This is how type 4 comments constantly your own story.
And if your mother is encouraging, valuing your abilities, paying attention to you positively, you'll withdraw to have the time and space to give food to self hatred another way. Your type will Find the reasons it's looking for. It's adaptive... :-)
eidbuser
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 1:55:25 PM It's good to see that there's a whole spectrum of 9s. The most common understanding of 9 is of those on one end of the spectrum.
I've recently come to the understanding that my mother is most likely a 9. The interesting thing is that with her, I never felt seen. She seemed to be off in another world somehow, not totally attuned or present with me. My mother always seemed oddly surprised when I could do something on my own, or when I was more intelligent than she thought. I got the feeling that I was constantly being under-estimated. Whenever she was surprised by me, it didn't make me feel special in that moment. It made me feel as though she never saw the specialness and potential that was already there.
So it has created an element of self-doubt in me, where I don't really believe in myself, or don't feel I'm all that great. It's hard to see myself as really great, even when people tell me I have all these great qualities. Inside, there's a part of me that doesn't feel special, seen, or understood at all.
I have a narcissistic side to me, a side that really does see specialness in me, and another side that has no ability to integrate my good qualities. This part always undercuts my ability to shine, because I hold back out of shame, insecurity, or feeling that I'm really not that good or lovable to anyone.
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 1:45:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by jevoudrais
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
I never really thought I was...
Ah, the classic 9 mistake. I see it like a Ven diagram, whereas 4s always underestimate the overlap between two individuals, 9s always overestimate it. Thus, phrases like, "Oh, no, I don't have a problem with you because of that..." when they do have a problem with you. Because of that. The message in the bottle for 9s is still lost at sea. They think, "Eh, the message is there though, in the sea. That is the same as finding the bottle and reading it."
I certainly understand this. It resonates on a level (and so right about 9's in this way). My mom is a 9 at levels 6-8, incredibly unhealthy. So I am directly dealing with outright lying and covering up. 'Mom did you sleep in the bed last night (which I took apart and brought downstairs)?' 'Yea.' Meanwhile the sheets hadn't moved and she told the nurse that her neck hurts from sleeping on the couch for a week.
I'm at my breaking point. She wants everyone off her case and will just lie and not tell me things. What's unsaid can't be criticized ('mom you shouldn't eat oreos everyday when you are diabetic and have your friend go get them for you'). It's 'Have you seen anyone else today?' 'Oh, no.'
I'm trying to confront and route out my own learned/inherited habits like these from her, yet still do not think it makes me a full on 9. I can do shades of this behavior. I do understand that if you don't say anything, others don't know. Often with her it will be 'Didn't you tell the doctor that you were doing such-and-such?' And the reply is 'He didn't ask.' And the underlying message is, 'He didn't ask me specifically, so I was able to not bring it up.'
With 9's (and her in particular) I see OVERWHELMINGLY clear how they can withhold anything. *Especially* if you don't ask directly. And even then, it's so easy to just lie. 'Bury it. Forget it. It didn't happen.' Bullsh_t.
I can understand because I was taught that. It's easy to keep your mouth shut.
BUT, I also have much more. She only has peace/content or resistance.
Stormy
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 1:39:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
Say you grew up with a chronically doubtful and self-deflecting type 9 parent, who put all their attention on you so they didn't have to focus on themselves. Overly protected, overly worried about, and very much under-believed in ('How could you possibly know that or how to do that' was something I heard constantly. If she didn't witness someone telling me exactly how to do something, she couldn't understand how I could learn anything on my own.)
I'd stop doing anything that might draw attention to myself.
And if you actually crave attention?
I'd have it both ways.
- [Stormy]
oceanlife
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 1:35:02 PM
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
Say you grew up with a chronically doubtful and self-deflecting type 9 parent, who put all their attention on you so they didn't have to focus on themselves. Overly protected, overly worried about, and very much under-believed in ('How could you possibly know that or how to do that' was something I heard constantly. If she didn't witness someone telling me exactly how to do something, she couldn't understand how I could learn anything on my own.)
I'd stop doing anything that might draw attention to myself.
- [Stormy]
And if you actually crave attention? Then you'd end up with what my therapist mentioned as a Dismissive Attachment style. I had not heard of that one. Where you do something, act, make something, etc, then aggressively and across-the-board reject it (dismiss it).
According to my descriptions my mom is Avoidant and I am Dismissive. Where she won't do things. I will and then hate it, reject it, find fault with it. Over and over.
jevoudrais
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 12:48:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
I never really thought I was...
Ah, the classic 9 mistake. I see it like a Ven diagram, whereas 4s always underestimate the overlap between two individuals, 9s always overestimate it. Thus, phrases like, "Oh, no, I don't have a problem with you because of that..." when they do have a problem with you. Because of that. The message in the bottle for 9s is still lost at sea. They think, "Eh, the message is there though, in the sea. That is the same as finding the bottle and reading it."
Stormy
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 12:40:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by oceanlife
Say you grew up with a chronically doubtful and self-deflecting type 9 parent, who put all their attention on you so they didn't have to focus on themselves. Overly protected, overly worried about, and very much under-believed in ('How could you possibly know that or how to do that' was something I heard constantly. If she didn't witness someone telling me exactly how to do something, she couldn't understand how I could learn anything on my own.)
I'd stop doing anything that might draw attention to myself.
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And, things like there never being displays of emotions publicly....
/ 
It's easy to keep your mouth shut.
