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T O P I C R E V I E W
This Bitter Earth
Posted - 12 Jun 2012 : 03:50:02 AM I am intrigued by these two types. I think they can seem very similar on the outside, but I'm biased towards the One because they seem more solid and sure of themselves. Fours just seem inherently broken much of the time.
What are some of the main distinctions between these two types?
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold.
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
This Bitter Earth
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 6:35:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by 1NFJ
I relate to the first quote more than the second.
When being introspective, my first instinct is to self-chastize when I recall past mistakes. It takes me backing off for a moment, realizing that beating myself up yet again for something that happened years ago isn't going to fix anything, and then I gain a better perspective.
As for your second quote, it's situational as to whether I'll introspect under criticism. If I "just know" I'm right, there's little to none. Otherwise, the degree of introspection depends on the validity of their criticism, and how healthy I am at that time. As for meeting resistance, I generally analyze the other person and the overall situation far more than myself.
I agree with this completely. I kick myself a lot upon reflection.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold.
1NFJ
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 12:03:23 PM I relate to the first quote more than the second.
When being introspective, my first instinct is to self-chastize when I recall past mistakes. It takes me backing off for a moment, realizing that beating myself up yet again for something that happened years ago isn't going to fix anything, and then I gain a better perspective.
As for your second quote, it's situational as to whether I'll introspect under criticism. If I "just know" I'm right, there's little to none. Otherwise, the degree of introspection depends on the validity of their criticism, and how healthy I am at that time. As for meeting resistance, I generally analyze the other person and the overall situation far more than myself.
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1w9 sp/sx INFJ
skyboy
Posted - 19 Jun 2012 : 07:51:15 AM Reading Palmer again, she points at several points very interesting about 1s, which have echoes in type 4 : Advise to 1s : << Don't use introspection as an attack against self : being tough and unforgiving about past mistakes. >>
I've noticed several times of using a false introspection (self-consciousness ?) when I meet people not sharing naturally the same quality standards. There is a shame about being too demanding or over-focussed on some details. Instead of naturally asking the person's point of view of whether they agree to comply to these quality standards, there is both a tendency to keep silently or almost aggressively personal control on the standards, and a sort of moral introspection about it which just leads to nowhere but guilt or judgement. This is based on a core belief that right and wrong are absolute and determined by something above and beyond us. While it is actually depending on persons, cultures, backgrounds, desires... are richer than one can imagine.
This tendency to keep anxious control on the procedural and quality can either lead to become tough without any reason, or shamefully self-defeating when actually people really want to try to comply and improve their abilities and discernment, and appreciate teaching and uncompromising strength of my presence about it.
Reading through Palmer's lines, it seems that reality checks (letting other people express themselves about it) is a good direction that needs courage and bring clarity.
A friend of mine, whose type is still impossible for me to be sure of, also told me something similar : << I used to go to introspection when people resisted or attacked me, and I soon realized it was usually much better to stand strong in these moments : this introspection was useless and meaningless. >>
Do 1s or 4s here relate to it more or less ?
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
Narc
Posted - 18 Jun 2012 : 8:28:30 PM 1's and 4's are diametrically opposed and therefore completely different, complete opposites. Any types at each end of an Enneagram axis are diametrically opposed. Same with 5 and 8, 7 and 1, 8 and 2, 5 and 7, 4 and 2. They're opposites. There may be some common themes in terms of their inner motivations but outwardly they are in stark contrast to one another.
However, types 3,6,9 on the triangle morph and blend into one another more.
This Bitter Earth
Posted - 17 Jun 2012 : 8:36:47 PM I don't think being judgmental and [blocked]ly are distinguishing traits here because certainly both types do that very well. Nor do I believe perfectionism per se is the distinctive difference. Hmm.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold.
skyboy
Posted - 17 Jun 2012 : 6:18:47 PM Hello Lenny. Welcome to the board .
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
Lenny306
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 9:58:27 PM From my experience, and I may be biased when dealing with an unhealthy 4w5 vs a healthy one....I think 4's can resemble ones in the sense of being very judgmental and critical of others, not just themselves. For sure, they are judgmental of themselves too, but also waiters and other persons they encounter. I would also say that when I deteriorate, I also become an unhealthy six, reactive, paranoid, and lashing out. So I also have things to work on. :) I appreciate everyone on here.
This Bitter Earth
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 2:14:15 PM I wonder if either type has this need to protect themselves from parts of the world, lest they become corrupted or compromised somehow. Whether it's from certain vices like smoking, drugs, or even bad television.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold.
skyboy
Posted - 16 Jun 2012 : 03:00:37 AM In tritype, the 5w6 fix is the one I'm the least sure of while 1w9 is now clear as day. But I still consider 5w6 is from far the highest probability.
One of my difficulties is to tell the 5 apart from the 1. Several things you told on this thread actually belong to type 1, while I related it with 5 before : the methodical approach of problems solving. No matter if it's intellectual or practical, there is a trend to do it that way : problem A needs to solve B and C first. Let's solve B and C with perfect certainty. Then let's come back to A. Decompose problems is 1ish. R&H call the 5w6 the "problem solver", but an intellectual 1w9 could match this phrase too. I guess if it's about fixing a toaster it's type 1, if it's about theoretical physics it's more 5... . I have some of both. Also "control" of one's behaviour is both 1ish and 5ish : one out of principles, the other out of fear of consequences.
What is more 5ish : on the high side there is a fascination for observing and understanding life, with a great pleasure and joy at doing it. My mind is like a secret machine who is observing everything and I sometimes have the sense to embrace an understanding of a lot without using much words.
I'm not at ease with too much demands from others like it was an intrusion. The presence of someone too energetic, too complex, or with too many desires has something scaring and causes a sort of automatic safety withdrawal inside of me, away from the body and feelings. I can sometimes stay in my head for several days, not in a 4ish way of fantasies and inspiration, but about working on complex abstract problems, mainly mathematics or computer science. While I'm good at it and sometimes get results, I feel the urge to withdraw in my head is not healthy and related to a kind of avoidance of the "real" life. But this is also 4ish.
Also, I need time to give a firm answer to people. While I usually know instinctively when I will say "no", disagree and stand on my position, I need time to process it and give an answer. This is much about fear too. I've noticed I rarely change my mind in those occasions, and the thinking process finally ends where it started : "the answer is no". It's just hard to say it, because of fear of intense emotions caused by the reaction of the other person.
I've got avarice around SP mainly towards myself (while I'm dangerously generous with others : reckless SP4). It's sometimes hard to spend a few hundred euros to buy important devices I need for my musical productions. I have a tendency to use things I already have, even though they would need to be replaced : this gives an experimental touch which is interesting somehow however.
Finally I'm a natural expert and have always been : maths, computers, programming languages, musical theory... I know all I know in depth and comprehensively. I'm very competent even though I usually hate to say it. There is more fear than narcissism around it. I have even learnt to hide this competent side to most people.
I'm also comfortable around 5s. One of my best friends is an SP/SO 5w4 mathematician (also a 1w9 fixer). It's and old friendship that feels unbreakable even though none of us show much. Recently he even started parenting me sometimes. When even 5s start parenting you, you know you're a 4...
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
emerald
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 10:32:47 PM How does the 5 show up in you, skyboy? I'm asking because I find that I feel quite safe with most 5s.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
skyboy
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 08:07:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by emerald
4s seem to attach themselves to me irl. With about half of them I want to nurture the relationships and the other half I need to continually adjust the distance because they bug me. I need to look at what's driving my reaction.
My own 1 elitism tends to be that I think I'm righter, wiser, clearer thinking and smarter than most people. But only because it's true. lol -- only half joking. However I enjoy most people, tend to find something intriguing and attractive and likeable in just about anyone once I get to know the person one on one.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
I've got a lot of that too. It's funny that I can identify to both sides.
Reading your posts, it now comes clear that a 4w5 woman friend of mine is also a 1-fixer. She first identified with a 1 when reading the E description, mainly around a strong and straight sense of good and evil and the anger. She's SP/SX, thus the anger is a bit more explosive and straight forward than mine, she also expresses her desires more directly. Some of her gut reactions look like a 1 or an 8. But the heart energy, the strong introspective tendencies, the moodiness, the emotional creativity, envy/introjection, the warmth is too much for her being a core 1w9.
In 4w5s with a 1 fix, there is often a philosophical quality of trying to determine right and wrong regardless of self and individuality, yet feeling it very much as a personal road. This woman and I also meet on a desire for independence : mainly trying to be efficiently standalone adults like a 1w9. There is a natural guilt at seeing we are not able to do it as much as a real 1.
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
dfgray44
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 11:39:38 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
I can never understand what the hell you're talking about. Are you incapable of speaking logically and clearly?
Translation: How was it that one person giving you a thumbs-up becomes 'most people like' your 4/1 list?
EMike583
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 1:11:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Hey DF, looks like you edited the type in my signature...
That was a way to make sense of your reframe - that most people liked your list. A way to make it right in the mind's eye's precarious government.
For, so far was it from the Light of Truth, that the Sun appeared brandishing a cloak as dark as sackcloth of black hair, and the Moon filled full-up with blood poured out from the wellspring at its gyrating center, all helter-skelter now from this error unloosed upon a tentative sky.
Let this be a lesson to you and your kinfolk. A seal of ancient wisdom affixed to your forehead, that you may now speak out in great assemblies, and the Truth would glow from your brow and a pathway would be illumined, a wide avenue leading populations away from such grievous error.
I can never understand what the hell you're talking about. Are you incapable of speaking logically and clearly?
1w9 SO/SP
emerald
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 11:17:11 AM 4s seem to attach themselves to me irl. With about half of them I want to nurture the relationships and the other half I need to continually adjust the distance because they bug me. I need to look at what's driving my reaction.
Of these 4s it's only the 4w3 that come off as elitist in the sense of feeling above the common folk. The 4w5 dont come off that way so much. No, I take that back. It's more subtle perhaps, as in thinking of self as above the rest in intellectual prowess, emotional depth or whatever, but it's there.
My own 1 elitism tends to be that I think I'm righter, wiser, clearer thinking and smarter than most people. But only because it's true. lol -- only half joking. However I enjoy most people, tend to find something intriguing and attractive and likeable in just about anyone once I get to know the person one on one.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
dfgray44
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 09:30:37 AM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Hey DF, looks like you edited the type in my signature...
That was a way to make sense of your reframe - that most people liked your list. A way to make it right in the mind's eye's precarious government.
For, so far was it from the Light of Truth, that the Sun appeared brandishing a cloak as dark as sackcloth of black hair, and the Moon filled full-up with blood poured out from the wellspring at its gyrating center, all helter-skelter now from this error unloosed upon a tentative sky.
Let this be a lesson to you and your kinfolk. A seal of ancient wisdom affixed to your forehead, that you may now speak out in great assemblies, and the Truth would glow from your brow and a pathway would be illumined, a wide avenue leading populations away from such grievous error.
Orpheus
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 09:16:43 AM Pointing out surface traits isn't going to mean anything because ultimately, the surface is different depending on the individual 1 or 4.
1s and 4s are similar in that their object relations orientation is frustration, but what for and why is different.
4s are frustrated that the domain of their instinct isn't attuned to them, isn't personal enough. What they're seeking is "true identity", a sense of locating the essence of oneself. On the surface, 4s become obsessed with personalization - whether taking things personal, personal feelings, self-expression, self-absorption, and individualism. The seeming lack of confidence in comparison to 1s is in this shifting sense of self and identity.
1s are frustrated that the domain of their instinct isn't congruent with a sense that is often, in our lacking, literal, and unimaginative lexicon, "perfection" or idealization, but could be best described as "in tune with" or "aligned with" a kind of good and sacred unfolding of things. On the surface, this makes ones fairly judgmental of how aligned or not things-as-they happen are, self-critical about how they're measuring up, idealism, and attentive to 'how things are doing' in the domain of their instinct. The 'seeming more confident' comes from a felt sense that they have an intuition as to how things 'ought to be'.
4 has to do with the mystery of one's "true nature" or deeper self, 1 has to do with the unfolding of that mystery.
Love has come to rule and transform. Stay awake, my heart, stay awake.
skyboy
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 08:18:58 AM
quote:Originally posted by warrants outstanding
Sorry- to get back to topic, I think 6s are the egalitarian to 1s elitist. I think 7s and 9s are also egalitarian, but I don't particularly associate this with 4s. I think 4s can seem egalitarian by taking inspiration from wherever they will, by being gracious on the high end, or they will take something ugly and make it cool, be chivalrous maybe or even want to make sure all ppl in the groups feelings get heard and acknowledged. But theres still something fundamentally elitist about 4s to me, and introjection in particular. 4 is in a constant process of sifting everything into me/not-me, and this makes it rather easy to develop strong tastes and an elitist orientation. Elitism isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think elitism is the strongest point of agreement between 1 and 4. Theres a shared sense of being elite or having elite tastes, whether other people think they are elite or whether they are or not.
I agree with that.
I mean it's not black and white, but I found mainly 4s, 1s and 7s having personal thoughts or questions about elitism generally. 4s secretly want to be extraordinary (at something), and may wonder why people don't do that too, suffer the lack of mirror of valuing or parenting this. 1s (mainly SO) know their tendency to push themselves and others to the best or some high standards, and may start to wonder if it's appropriate for everybody. 7s realize they mainly want to spend time with smart people, being quite multi-talented and learnt as well, and may meet the question "am I a snob ?".
Not that they chose one side or the other, but they talk about it and try to gain maturity about it. It's important to them because the ego is unusually involved in these questions.
1 : only your best is acceptable 4 : you can only exist if you're extraordinary 7 : may life keep me away from the tedious, dull and boring 147 tritype : "Only the very best is acceptable".
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
Stormy
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 04:02:06 AM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Seems like most people like my set of 1 vs. 4 contrasts. How do you like them apples, DFGray?
9w1 SP/SO
I'm not much for determining these kinds of things based on consensus.
That's not very egalitarian of you.
- [Stormy]
EMike583
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 02:25:10 AM Hey DF, looks like you edited the type in my signature...
loscust
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 01:22:20 AM
quote:Originally posted by skyboy 1s masochism is not much related to identity or "who am I". There is a system of what is right and what is not. They apply it to themselves as much as to anybody, there is not much separation.
For some ones may be, but many don't have any heavy set systems of rights and wrong. From what it described here http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/70-How-Enneagram-Types-Pay-Attention 1s are constantly thinking about how things can be made better and can wear themselves out with this. It's masochism based on compulsive doing, "I haven't done enough" "this can be made better" "I should work more on this" "this is my responsibility" and so forth, rather than masochism based on right and wrong, though the later kind of 1s also exist.
Some of the more neurotic 1s will be working compulsively. If you see 1w2s post on blogs or forums they often overdo it, their posting becomes profuse and immaculate in nature.
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 01:00:23 AM Threadbare, I am chicken, I am a six lol. This is my mom. She has a lot of influence over me even as an adult because she has given me so much materially. And she really tries, to be supportive. It is just a situation of a person who is chronically unhappy. If she knew I even mentioned her to anyone she would be so enraged she would cut me out of her life. I am sad that it is this way. Worry for the future. And as for the one anger, I think it is real and at first I thought my husband was an eight because he is real direct, but he self identified as a one and in looking at it, I see it. I sometimes as the six feel like the screwup in the relationship, but yet I feel I bring the fun to it as well.
emerald
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 12:45:35 AM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Seems like most people like my set of 1 vs. 4 contrasts. How do you like them apples, DFGray?
6w5 SP/SO
I was thinking that your list sounded a bit sterile, like you were writing a dictionary list of dichotomies rather describing flesh and blood people.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
threadbare
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 12:40:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by Lenny306
I am a type 6w7 married to a 1w9. I have a close female relative that is a 4w5. Now my husband is what I consider to be a healthy one- yeah he is very disciplined, methodical, etc and sometimes I feel he is angry when he says he is not. But my female 4 relative and my one hubby are complete opposites. The problem I am having is this close 4 relative is very depressed, unhappy, moody and self absorbed, but has been this way for the last 40 yrs at least. Doesn't believe in therapy. You can't talk her out of her bad moods, which are every day. I am one of only two people this 4 will confide in and I am at my wits end. I foresee it only getting worse. The stress of listening to gripes everyday wears on my nerves. Thoughts?
print out your post and let the four read it?
emerald
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 12:29:21 AM
quote:Originally posted by warrants outstanding Thanks for posting this. I am a 4 with a 1 SO and I always think he seems angry and well, theres a sort of emotional violence to the way he speaks and moves when he is like this and a really biting contempt. But if i ask why he is angry he denies he is angry! I think, `you are clearly fuming, do you think I can't tell? Your energy is like a coiled spring and I feel you could hit mea any second' (he has never hit me btw and never would) it s just so kinetic. He gets irritated and says 'stop trying to guess my feelings!' or, 'I'm not angry I'm frustrated.'. And it makes him angrier when I try to identify this so I have stopped because eventually he will blow up. But he will never admit he was wrong or apologize.
It really annoys me when he tries to hide his feelings because they are so obvious to me and they affect me. But it sounds like maybe he doesn't even know he is angry? That seems to alien to me. I feel like by denying his feelings, he tries to get away with being a jerk. Its really weird for me to have to pretend things are okay when there is no willingness to explain this is whats happening. It feels really ..ugly to me, and it makes me feel like I am going crazy. iI can't see why he can't just tell me he is angry and why, but if he can't I'd like a "I realize you can tell somethings wrong but I need you to pretend not to notice" memo.
I believe In the holy origin of all things In the eternal impulse of creation In all times and places
warrants, if he is a 1, it's unlikely that he's hiding his feelings from you or denying them even to himself. He probably really doesn't feel the anger and he can't tell you he's angry because he doesn't know it. We 1s don't let outselves feel it because we believe it's wrong to be angry. "Good people aren't angry." I know it sounds crazy, especially if you can feel anger easily. We don't apologize much either, because admitting we made a mistake is a threat to our whole self image. It might be more effective to stick with letting him know the specific behaviors that upset you, like his tone of voice, his scowl or whatever it is. Announcing to him that he's angry and asking him why won't work. He'll just think you don't understand him. Maybe once he feels safer, he'll be able to open up. 1s have a bunch of great qualities so you might try telling him 10 things you appreciate for every one you complain about. I know that would make a difference to me.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
p.s. I just realized I sound like Dear Abby. lol
dfgray44
Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 12:10:44 AM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Seems like most people like my set of 1 vs. 4 contrasts. How do you like them apples, DFGray?
9w1 SP/SO
I'm not much for determining these kinds of things based on consensus. Either way, might want to re-read the responses. Not seeing much 'most people like...' going on.
The list is behavior-heavy. Start looking for the things behind the things, and then still one more layer in.
Human beings are messes; the conservative approach to Personality is a state of denial in relation to that reality.
It's essential that a person be creative by nature if they're going to get the E. Don't have to be artists, literally, but some capacity to integrate Apollonian and Dionysian (form & chaos).
The Enneagram Institute is a Service Mark of Enneagram Personality Types, Inc.
All Images, Content and Layout Copyright The Enneagram Institute 1998-2013.
.
. I have some of both. Also "control" of one's behaviour is both 1ish and 5ish : one out of principles, the other out of fear of consequences.
