| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lenny306 |
Posted - 17 Jun 2012 : 11:37:13 PM
Here is my latest thought after reading several comments on the board: And, yes, I think this way myself and try to act accordingly. What if a person you respected was watching your every move? Your pastor, priest, parent you respect, or another person you would like to be seen well by? Would you post the same content you post anonymously?
Would you act the same? Would you open the doors for others at the store, return carts, and let people in line in traffic? Would others opinions influence you to be a "nicer" person? And if so, why aren't you doing those things now? Of course being nice is relative. I am talking about doing things to strangers generally accepted as nice. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Fleets |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 01:20:49 AM
|
| MH |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 01:16:07 AM
heh. No I want some. Im trying something else |
| Fleets |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 01:12:38 AM
What spirits? : )
|
| MH |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 01:10:05 AM
definately. My parents are both amazing. Im glad to have gotten to know them both. Hugely frustrated its so hard to talk but the spirits are so neat. I wish language were so much easier. I get so frustrated |
| Fleets |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 01:05:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
me? urm..nope ..hell no. Shawn whispered to me "she is a cynic" yeah pretty much. But its not my thing its hers. and i recognise its from a place of caring even if it is warped to me
Hmm. At least you can see it as well meant. |
| MH |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 01:01:38 AM
me? urm..nope ..hell no. Shawn whispered to me "she is a cynic" yeah pretty much. But its not my thing its hers. and i recognise its from a place of caring even if it is warped to me |
| Fleets |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 12:52:27 AM
Were you fortunate in your mother? |
| MH |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 12:49:10 AM
with shawn i would say his dad was an ultimate chaos way more than his chaotic mom. His dad was wrapped up and almost never there. my dad was too but more involved. Shawns mom is an eight and has spent her lifetime literally building an empire for her grandkids. Shawn has alot of scars. Very different from my mom |
| Fleets |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 12:34:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
Its seems multi-layered to me but I think I see why you say romantisized? Can you say more? I did experience role reversal in my parents styles but my father was much more logical/distant than my mother who was chaotically nurturing.
May, yes I understand how K is relating it on another level,and why; ok - will think about the hedging of 'wild innocence' further and attempt to explain.
Were they? Actually, I didn't experience role reversal in my parents, as they were both as problematic as each other. |
| MH |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 9:35:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fleets
quote:
Originally posted by Kate
What I take from this and has meaning for me, is that we are born 'in nature' and innocence, but wild and untamed. We know nothing of civilization until we become part of it. It's the state of loss of wild innocence - no self control, wanting our every need met that produces the initial shame reaction in humans.
It makes me think of the Garden of Eden as metaphor.
Kate, I can't relate to this. It seems romanticized.
______
ok Des.
Its seems multi-layered to me but I think I see why you say romantisized? Can you say more? I did experience role reversal in my parents styles but my father was much more logical/distant than my mother who was chaotically nurturing. |
| Fleets |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 9:12:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kate
What I take from this and has meaning for me, is that we are born 'in nature' and innocence, but wild and untamed. We know nothing of civilization until we become part of it. It's the state of loss of wild innocence - no self control, wanting our every need met that produces the initial shame reaction in humans.
It makes me think of the Garden of Eden as metaphor.
Kate, I can't relate to this. It seems romanticized.
______
ok Des.
|
| Desdemona |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 8:37:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fleets
Like Des, I did not view my mother as a nurturing figure, but rather as a destructive one.
Well, let me clarify here. I did view my mother as a nurturing figure. However, that doesn't mean I want to live exactly the way she wants me to....and she is very insistent on her own beliefs and moral standards being the only appropriate way of life. So I choose to let her believe what she needs to believe and live as I choose on my own, 'cause I don't want to listen to her go on and on about everything she disagrees with that I'm doing. Does anybody else relate to this kind of thing?
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
|
| Kate |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 8:17:09 PM
Fleets,
Yeah, of course each of our experience with our mother and father is going to depend on what their personalities were like and yes, the nurturing mother and disciplinarian father is the one traditional stereotype. The roles could be reversed and that is noted.
What resonated for me, was the archetypal significance of Mother (capital 'M' for the archetype) and Father (archetypally) -- The Mother being Mother Nature and uncontrolled, unbridled impulse, the state of wild nature. Father archetype being that of civilization, rules, laws, obedience and punishment.
What I take from this and has meaning for me, is that we are born 'in nature' and innocence, but wild and untamed. We know nothing of civilization until we become part of it. It's the state of loss of wild innocence - no self control, wanting our every need met that produces the initial shame reaction in humans.
It makes me think of the Garden of Eden as metaphor.
What makes sense to me, in my inner landscape is that what would naturally happen is an inner rage at the loss and the shame. How that anger or rage manifests or how deep it is, how blocked it becomes would depend on the parenting, and then also the peer and socialization process.
The anger or rage follows from the grief and loss of a state of pure connection with nature (our original essence), and the feelings of shame that would produce.
From my own readings, therapy and inner work on shame and anger, this is how it see it as a kind of concentric circle or onion of built up defenses.
|
| Fleets |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 7:20:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kate
Ithe father who taught us the rules of society and then demanded obedience. To the child the father is in many ways indistinguishable from society as a whole, just as the mother is nature itself. One of the painful moments of maturity for many people comes when they discover the limited humanity of their parents.
In Freud's scheme of mental development the father and the rules of society become direcly linked. The infant pyche demands constant satisfaction, particularly in its desires for food and physical pleasure from the mother.
And the more perverse the father, the more perverse appear society rules – the borrowed vision of a madman incorporated into the subconscious, continuing to berate. : ) You have to laugh at this.
________
Like Des, I did not view my mother as a nurturing figure, but rather as a destructive one.
Freud tends to take the traditional view of gender (God-male) as he was the subject of a doting mother,etc.
|
| Rich |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 2:25:54 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Stormy
]
I'm not sure how Ichazo differentiated them, but I suggest envy is a feeling of "I have things worse than others" ("I'm not equal" - hence controlled), whereas jealousy is a feeling of "other people have things I should have" ("I don't live up to standard" - hence criticized). ( end quote )
This seems to follow my experience extremely well! It became a power struggle, over-achievers can end up with some of the high cards, when they become adults.
 / 
ISTJ & SP-3W4, DISC:High-DSC
Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles
HER:SP-2W1 & ISFJ; Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles
My philosophy of life: Love will get you through.
I learned to dissemble at an early age. |
| Stormy |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 2:13:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
I find it interesting that they differentiate between jealousy and envy. I think of these as the same emotion. How would envy be different than jealousy? The only context I can think of where they'd be different is romantic, and I understand that difference very well, but otherwise I'm not sure.
I'm not sure how Ichazo differentiated them, but I suggest envy is a feeling of "I have things worse than others" ("I'm not equal" - hence controlled), whereas jealousy is a feeling of "other people have things I should have" ("I don't live up to standard" - hence criticized).
- [Stormy] |
| Rich |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 2:08:38 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Stormy
Ichazo stated the relationship with one's father determines Fixation in the Image Triad, but correlated the Image Triad with anger, not shame per se. ( end quote )
Stormy, thanks for that! I have said that I had to seek professional help for problems with anger.... And over the years, lots of people have lectured me, that I must simply be consumed by shame, whereas I am not. Even 3s like the 4W3 can have attitudes of " I'll show you! ", and even have a fanatical desire to prevail, no matter what the cost.... 
For me its good ole ENVY that troubles my life via W4. Jealousy would be admitting that daddy was actually better than me.... NO way! He was very free with his abrasive comments, and humorous insults.... But, I outlasted him, too bad what it did to the extended family....
/
ISTJ & SP-3W4, DISC:High-DSC
Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles
HER:SP-2W1 & ISFJ; Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles
My philosophy of life: Love will get you through.
I learned to dissemble at an early age. |
| sunny |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 2:04:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
E4 - Jealousy - criticized by father figure
- [Stormy]
In my case...very true.
-----------------------
|
| Desdemona |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 2:03:14 PM
Thanks for elaborating, Stormy. I'll have to think about that. I know I didn't feel ignored by my father. We always had a very positive relationship, though there were elements of feeling both criticized and controlled, which I think is pretty normal in a parent/child relationship.
I find it interesting that they differentiate between jealousy and envy. I think of these as the same emotion. How would envy be different than jealousy? The only context I can think of where they'd be different is romantic, and I understand that difference very well, but otherwise I'm not sure.
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
|
| Stormy |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 1:56:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
Me too; Ichazo stated the relationship with one's father determines Fixation in the Image Triad, but correlated the Image Triad with anger, not shame per se.
That's interesting. Can you explain more about that?
According to Ichazo, each Type in the Image Triad - of Living Group, as he called it - has a Fixation rooted in a form of hostility, which colours the relationship with the father figure:
E2 - Envy - controlled by father figure
E3 - Hatred - ignored by father figure
E4 - Jealousy - criticized by father figure
- [Stormy] |
| Desdemona |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 1:01:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
Me too; Ichazo stated the relationship with one's father determines Fixation in the Image Triad, but correlated the Image Triad with anger, not shame per se.
That's interesting. Can you explain more about that?
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
|
| Stormy |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 12:44:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
quote:
Originally posted by Kate
It doesn't surprise me that our image/shame fix is tied to our relationship with our father.
Dunno, it's my mother I'd rather avoid being monitored by.
Me too; Ichazo stated the relationship with one's father determines Fixation in the Image Triad, but correlated the Image Triad with anger, not shame per se.
- [Stormy] |
| Desdemona |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 12:38:17 PM
quote:
It doesn't surprise me that our image/shame fix is tied to our relationship with our father.
Dunno, it's my mother I'd rather avoid being monitored by. Ugh. The initial post assumes that we'll want to be what the "watcher" wants us to be. I don't feel a need to be what anyone else wants, but in terms of my parents (mother especially), I do like to avoid haranguing. I do what I want and let her believe what she likes so she won't harass me about it indefinitely.
I like Invicta's answer, though, heh.
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
|
| Kate |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 02:59:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser
this is me in the future
*hand pump* 
|
| eidbuser |
Posted - 20 Jun 2012 : 02:57:25 AM
this is me in the future |
