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T O P I C R E V I E W
sunny
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 3:52:25 PM 9s, 4s and 5s have "open ego boundaries" (according to R/H: Psychic Structures/Inner Critic workshop). That means their channels to unconscious contents are more open than other types. I've worked with thousands of psychotic people, and a great number of them are centered in the 5/4 space.
Seemingly disorganized or unstructured thinking is put in the 9 category on the EIDB, and some people are seen as 9ish, when they may be the opposite.
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25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
EMike583
Posted - 12 Jul 2012 : 7:45:07 PM
quote:Originally posted by sappy
What I think is cool about EMike that he has all this concepts about what is so not E9, and when I told him about AJMcFly he checked some of his posts and said "He was a total 9w1" although he had the stuff that rules out E9 cranked to the max.
AJM was the best example of what gray said - take a shy but opinionated guy (9w1), expose him to the eidb and you get one of the most assiduous stubborn truth-teller around, self-typing as anything but a nine..
That was my initial impression of AJMcFly. I don't necessarily still think he's a 9w1. My original point was that he clearly is not a 4w5.
eidbuser
Posted - 12 Jul 2012 : 7:21:23 PM I'm a sexual subtype. We tend to emotionally intensify things.
sappy
Posted - 12 Jul 2012 : 4:44:57 PM Buser, you makin' it sound so dramatic. Again.
To save EMike a post, that's because you're a dramatic, not a dull type, unlike me.
I'm going to bore my cat to death now.
Oh wait, I don't own a cat..
sappy
Posted - 12 Jul 2012 : 4:42:27 PM What I think is cool about EMike that he has all this concepts about what is so not E9, and when I told him about AJMcFly he checked some of his posts and said "He was a total 9w1" although he had the stuff that rules out E9 cranked to the max.
AJM was the best example of what gray said - take a shy but opinionated guy (9w1), expose him to the eidb and you get one of the most assiduous stubborn truth-teller around, self-typing as anything but a nine..
eidbuser
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 8:07:08 PM I'm reading this book right now called No More Mr. Nice Guy. It's one of the most powerful books I've read on e9 psychology.
I've realized a lot of what goes in inside the 9's psyche is truly an 'introverted' version of 3. The non-existence nice-guy persona of 9s is their passive chameleon seeking approval. 9s hide all of their rough edges and actually the entirety of themselves in order to present what they believe will bring them approval. The tendency to not rock the boat and stick out is actually an urgent plea, saying, love me. 9s seek love, attention, approval, and self-worth through not causing trouble and erasing themselves from their own lives.
The core of 9 is really a deep feeling of worthlessness and toxic shame. The feeling is that it's not okay to be myself, it's not okay to be a person, it's not okay to be human. So 9s passively present to the world what will give them approval (3) by being nice guys with not rough edges. This makes their personalities flat, and actually makes people love them less.
This is probably exacerbated with a 1-wing, but I see a highly self-perfecting element within 9s due to the connection to 3
Abi
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 6:43:39 PM
"froyd'in"
blackLight
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 08:51:38 AM thomg, I'd say you have to have a desire to be truthful about yourself rather than already be truthful. People can't really be honest about their motives - especially the kind of motives the E represents - because they are so fundamental and unconscious. The only way to see the motives is to first find out they exist. It's not really a matter of honesty, but one of awareness. But as you're pointing to, the inaccuracy of typing oneself with any system is problematic in terms of the distance between your self-concepts and how you really act.
quote:Originally posted by Corruption I agree that Wisdom doesn't simply present the types as behaviours and traits, and has an emphasis on presence, albeit I found the advice on how to achieve this to be confusing and inadequate. I actually found the book to be very interesting overall (except for E6), but ultimately shallow. They said everything didn't apply to everyone, but only because of LOD.
I never found it all that useful myself, but I think at a particular layer of personality (you could call it level 5), it could be helpful. It may be that some people who really benefit from book instructions could use it as a jumping off place, I don't know. I couldn't tell if I was a four or five from reading it. It's ironic in a way, because they do often say that this is a tool, it is not a path, while at the same time offering up ways to use it as a path. Maybe there's some wisdom in that, because some people are going to use it that way - they're not going to look any further. And as evidenced by many people on this board, there can still be quite a lot of growth using it as such. But yeah, I agree it's fairly shallow as prescription, but it is meant for a general audience and maybe doesn't land that way for a lot of people.
I think Naranjo had the right idea in concentrating more on core neurosis in 'character and neurosis', even though it was a bit hit and miss. I see everyone as hit and miss. There are things R/H get much better than Naranjo... and the whole general audience thing - not many people are going to sign up for seeing their neurosis head-on. I do think it's more substantial (and necessary) to see that part, but if you put people off out of the gate, there's zero chance for them. Their chances may be still slim because they'll stay at the surface, but not everyone will.
dfgray44
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 08:44:47 AM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Let me ask, why do you find 1w9 or 6w5 to be so implausible for me?
Because I've listened closely to how you've described yourself. More closely than you might be comfortable with...if you saw my inner process.
The reason I don't respect your opinion on my type is because you are so closed minded, so sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that I'm a 9w1, unwilling to consider that you could possibly be wrong.
It's kinda weird: there's this guy that's certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I'm a 5w4. He's unwilling to consider that he could be wrong. Kinda reminds of what you're describing about me.
Compare this with the attitude of bear, sunny, or Kate, who do not pretend to know what's going on inside my head and readily acknowledge that they are just making educated guesses.
Yes, I do claim to know what's going on inside people's heads based on my reading their posts. That's me.
Also, a type of 9w1 means little coming from you considering your history of mistyping people as 9w1s, particularly 1w9s. Take Al Gore, for instance. Obvious 1w9. You claim he's a 9w1.
Gore's E9 'muddled thinking' shows up in things like his having 'invented the internet'. That's an example of accidental merginess / things bleeding into things...and him being inside the flow of the bleed...in a fanciful, almost childhood-wish kind of way.
NB: Einstein is a clear 9w1 to me, so I'm putting him in the category of 'muddled thinking', lest you think that by accusing 9s of muddled thinking it equates to being a less-than thinker. He's even 'surface 9-ish' in that way that you might be able to perceive. Check out this thread.
Today I was looking back at an old thread typing characters from To Kill a Mockingbird. Most people on that thread typed Atticus Finch as a 1w9, you insisted, as usual, on 9w1.
Watch some youtube interviews with Gregory Peck. I think you'll see that he's a 9w1, and in one of those interviews he says that, in playing Atticus Finch, he was playing himself. One thing about Finch that's similar to Lincoln (generally accepted as a 9w1), for example, and sets him over the 1/9 cusp into 9-ness, is the style of his susceptibility to a child's perspective. Very 9 there. As opposed to the walled-off 'held adultness' of 1w9. Not that 1w9s have zero amount of what I'm referring to -- it's partly the style of how it manifests in Finch (and Lincoln, and Peck, who's played Lincoln). Despite the wooden formality, there's a particular permeability, there, in 9w1, as compared to 1w9.
And John Kerry a 9w1? Give me a break. Probably an SP/SO Three.
Kerry is an example of how 9s use the Gut in an autopilot/sleepwalking way. It's actually pretty amazing (in all seriousness): a kind of non-thinking carrying or performance that's a matter of flicking a switch and going. In this way, 9s do a lot of collective role-playing, carrying 1ness or 3ness or whatever as a filler/lubricant. A lot of stuff gets moved around the world in this way, on a daily basis. Looking at Kerry, I see big globs of 'Sleep'. Heavy heavy sleep. Like a soldier marching in lockstep with his battalion, his eyes closed and dreaming.
I have no idea why you think stubbornness and passive aggressiveness are the sole domain of E9, because they are not.
I don't. It's the way in which stubbornness and passive aggression manifests, plus the combination of other E9 traits that show up incidentally...such as your interpretation of the response to your E1 list of traits. That was a loud E9 bell ringer, right there.
Sixes and Ones can be plenty stubborn too, not to mention interpersonally reserved.
You're arguing adamantly about what these types are...though you think these types ultimately don't exist.
And please don't patronize me by saying I am blurring the types together, or that I have "hazy" thinking.
See above regarding Einstein.
You're the one who regularly spews New Age psychobabble. I am simply saying that a single trait, such as shyness or stubbornness, can cut across many types.
Agreed. For example, I've seen and known 8s that are shy or have shown shyness in certain circumstances. Not something 8s are known for or described as in the literature. I'm never arguing that one trait equals a type; it's always about the cumulative pile of traits and the accidents of style.
And yes, I understand that the same trait would have a different meaning and context for each type.
I think you dismiss 1w9 as a possibility for me and others because you think of E1 in terms of 1w2. I'm pretty sure I've read that 1w9s are more introverted and contemplative than 1w2s. Just because someone isn't running to the picket line doesn't mean they are a Nine rather than a One.
You're projecting your own narrowness of thought onto me. I'm the guy that thinks Bjork and Ronald Reagan are the same base e-type. Remember?
1w9, in my view, is more the type of person to write a philosophical tract on justice than to be screaming profanity into the megaphone at an anti-globalization rally. I am not necessarily saying I'm a 1w9. My point is that you are foolish to dismiss it as a possibility for me and for people like me.
I don't care if I'm foolish.
thomg
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 06:19:55 AM @ EU.
One of the master shibboleths on this board is the distinction between behaviour and motivation.
Thing is - it's a lot more complicated than that.
People are often not honest to themselves about their real motives. Or, to put it in a less Marxist way, a less appearance/reality way - there are multiple motives behind even the simplest action. This is one reason why looking at the facts of behaviour afresh -- free of all the prior accreted assumptions about the motive(s) behind them -- can be so useful.
Thing is, what is the key motive, not necessarily the most operative motive for a given act - what is the key underlying theme, the most consistent underlying motive, across many different actions in many different contexts?
This is one of the problems with the Enneagram, but is a problem wholly caused by the complexity of the human experience in my opinion - so that there is no possibility of some future system of psychological understanding overcoming it. The paradox is that to glean knowledge from the E, one must already have a lot of truth to bring to the table, and a lot of honesty about yourself. But given the tragedy of individual consciousness - how else could it work?
eidbuser
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 05:42:03 AM type really comes through so much in gestalt and the energetic tune of every type. the conviction is due to the strong resonance between your energy and that of the type. i'd be open to seeing you as a different type if i felt your vibe in person was any different.
eidbuser
Posted - 11 Jul 2012 : 05:23:06 AM the difficulty deciding or seeing clearly what type one is also rings as a triangle gestalt.
Corruption
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 5:37:13 PM
quote:Originally posted by bear
quote:Originally posted by Corruption Enneagram popularisers like R&H turned the types largely into a collection of behaviours and traits, and that they think the Enneagram can be made objective says to me that they do think it is all manifest as unambiguously recordable behaviours and traits, albeit somewhat dependent on level-of-health. I'm not sure if they think the E can be made objective, at least in the way you likely mean it. I do think they have an interest in making it verifiable in the psychological community so it can be taken more seriously, but I am certain that they don't look at it simply as behaviors and traits. Wisdom is sprinkled throughout with esoteric ideas and has a very distinct emphasis on presence.
I found particularly their type-differentiators on the website (no longer available to everyone) risible over-simplistic crap It's too bad that they haven't updated the site or their publications much in a long time. They definitely have more gravitas in person.
It doesn't help that pretty much everyone that attends their workshops will probably already be a fan of their ideas or an E-novice so I'm wondering where exactly they are getting serious/direct critical challenge from. Good question, though not something I worry about much. They do participate in E stuff all over the world, so I'm sure thy hear plenty of perspectives. I also have experienced people asking them challenging questions during workshops - I don't think all people are created equal, going to lap up the latest from them (though I have seen my fair share of idealization too).
So while I agree with you that the types cannot work as a list of behaviours and traits, it is worth reminding that we are operating here on the website of some industry 'leaders' that pretty much act like the types are all reducable to behaviours and traits. LOL @ industry leaders. This is a small business, from what I can tell. Don, Russ, a staff of a few people maybe? They've sold at least a million books, so I'll give you that, but every author who's sold that much is not labeled an industry. There's always been a lot of this kind of thing projected on them here.
I don't completely buy their version of the E from top to bottom, but there is a vast chasm between their print work and their level of quality as live teachers. They're very skilled at getting across the gestalt in live settings, and also skilled and compassionate in dealing with people, setting up a good environment to learn more about inner awareness, et al. From what I can tell, Don is more the academic, but Russ is without a doubt not in the 'reducible to behaviors and traits' camp. They're a good combo in that way - I get the impression that Don does a lot of the leg work in terms of research and developing ideas, and Russ is good at teaching them, and bringing in more of the esoteric and emphasis on presence and awareness. FTR since you haven't been around long - I went to their first level training retreat & a weekend workshop about 8-9 years ago, saw some of their presentations at IEA conferences (2004,6,9), and went to a weekend workshop about a year ago. I haven't read any of their books besides Wisdom, and that was 10 years ago.
There is something to traits & behaviors... it's not that there aren't tendencies, it's just that it doesn't work to type only by checklists. There are very few people that come to be excellent typers without live teaching - reading this stuff off the page only goes so far.
Thanks for responding.
I agree that Wisdom doesn't simply present the types as behaviours and traits, and has an emphasis on presence, albeit I found the advice on how to achieve this to be confusing and inadequate. I actually found the book to be very interesting overall (except for E6), but ultimately shallow. They said everything didn't apply to everyone, but only because of LOD.
It would be interesting to know if they updated their materials whether they really would go for a less prescriptive and more deep/abstract approach than previously. I think Naranjo had the right idea in concentrating more on core neurosis in 'character and neurosis', even though it was a bit hit and miss.
eidbuser
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 4:53:32 PM I'm a 9.
I'm just mad deep yo.
rockthrower
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 03:14:04 AMWake up stormy and exercise a degree of perspicacity!
"Your not Nick Cave and this isn't M TV"
Stormy
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 03:02:41 AM
quote:Originally posted by rockthrower
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Rockthrower, I'd appreciate if you would delete that vandalism of my post. It's cluttering up the page.
IT's time to get real my friend!
How so?
- [Stormy]
rockthrower
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 01:56:32 AM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
Rockthrower, I'd appreciate if you would delete that vandalism of my post. It's cluttering up the page.
IT's time to get real my friend!
EMike583
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 01:09:43 AM Rockthrower, I'd appreciate if you would delete that vandalism of my post. It's cluttering up the page.
rockthrower
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 12:57:54 AM Let me ask, why do you find 1w9 or 6w5 to be so implausible for me? 5/ so The reason I don't respect your opinion on my type INTP is because you are so closed minded, so sure beyond the shadow of a doubt 4 wing that I'm a 9w1, unwilling to consider that you could possibly be wrong.' In denile' Compare this with the attitude of bear, N/T, sunny, or Kate, who do not pretend to know what's going on inside my head IN/P and readily acknowledge that they are just making educated guesses. Pie'ass: 5w4
Also, a type of 9w1 'T' means little coming from you considering your history of mistyping people as 9w1s, particularly 1w9s.Desentergrated 7w6/ Espiriance point 1 stack Take Al Gore, for instance 4 wing ENFP. Obvious 1w96w5 sp/sx. You claim he's a 9w1. Today I was looking back at an old thread typing characters from To Kill a Mockingbird 'lost it level 6' Identity design point 5 of stack working i n unison with point 4 of stack. Most people on that thread typed Atticus Finch as a 1w9 'still lost in 4 land and treading water in seven stack energy', you insisted look out for the Blue lighting coming from his fingers, as usual, on 9w1. And John Kerry a 9w1? Give me a break 4w5 so/sx. Probably an SP/SO Three.
"I think john carry is a severn with six but its ok we get the froyd'in slip." thanks for the honesty EMike583 Soul"
I don't think I have to go on any further, check mate.
Besides as an orthentic 9w1, ti's to much work really..realy..lol I'm so bad.....lol 495
Let me ask, why do you find 1w9 or 6w5 to be so implausible for me? The reason I don't respect your opinion on my type is because you are so closed minded, so sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that I'm a 9w1, unwilling to consider that you could possibly be wrong. Compare this with the attitude of bear, sunny, or Kate, who do not pretend to know what's going on inside my head and readily acknowledge that they are just making educated guesses.
Also, a type of 9w1 means little coming from you considering your history of mistyping people as 9w1s, particularly 1w9s. Take Al Gore, for instance. Obvious 1w9. You claim he's a 9w1. Today I was looking back at an old thread typing characters from To Kill a Mockingbird. Most people on that thread typed Atticus Finch as a 1w9, you insisted, as usual, on 9w1. And John Kerry a 9w1? Give me a break. Probably an SP/SO Three.
I have no idea why you think stubbornness and passive aggressiveness are the sole domain of E9, because they are not. Sixes and Ones can be plenty stubborn too, not to mention interpersonally reserved. And please don't patronize me by saying I am blurring the types together, or that I have "hazy" thinking. You're the one who regularly spews New Age psychobabble. I am simply saying that a single trait, such as shyness or stubbornness, can cut across many types. And yes, I understand that the same trait would have a different meaning and context for each type.
I think you dismiss 1w9 as a possibility for me and others because you think of E1 in terms of 1w2. I'm pretty sure I've read that 1w9s are more introverted and contemplative than 1w2s. Just because someone isn't running to the picket line doesn't mean they are a Nine rather than a One. 1w9, in my view, is more the type of person to write a philosophical tract on justice than to be screaming profanity into the megaphone at an anti-globalization rally. I am not necessarily saying I'm a 1w9. My point is that you are foolish to dismiss it as a possibility for me and for people like me.
EMike583
Posted - 10 Jul 2012 : 12:24:39 AM
quote:Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
I don't know where you're getting any of this from.
Me, life experience, observing myself and other 9w1s.
Like Nines are the only type that can be shy. What about 4/5/6?
Fact-based equation containing realness and accuracy and correctness and factuality, all rolled into a square ball of triangulated truth:
shy + mild mannered + stubborn + not listening + skipping around on his selftyping + passive aggression + dreads confrontation + not seeing how radically different the types each are + inadvertent expressions of anger = 9w1
Question: One person gave a thumbs-up a few weeks ago to your list of E1 traits, and you interpreted that as several people approving of the list. What do you think was happening internally that had you see things that way?
Let me ask, why do you find 1w9 or 6w5 to be so implausible for me? The reason I don't respect your opinion on my type is because you are so closed minded, so sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that I'm a 9w1, unwilling to consider that you could possibly be wrong. Compare this with the attitude of bear, sunny, or Kate, who do not pretend to know what's going on inside my head and readily acknowledge that they are just making educated guesses.
Also, a type of 9w1 means little coming from you considering your history of mistyping people as 9w1s, particularly 1w9s. Take Al Gore, for instance. Obvious 1w9. You claim he's a 9w1. Today I was looking back at an old thread typing characters from To Kill a Mockingbird. Most people on that thread typed Atticus Finch as a 1w9, you insisted, as usual, on 9w1. And John Kerry a 9w1? Give me a break. Probably an SP/SO Three.
I have no idea why you think stubbornness and passive aggressiveness are the sole domain of E9, because they are not. Sixes and Ones can be plenty stubborn too, not to mention interpersonally reserved. And please don't patronize me by saying I am blurring the types together, or that I have "hazy" thinking. You're the one who regularly spews New Age psychobabble. I am simply saying that a single trait, such as shyness or stubbornness, can cut across many types. And yes, I understand that the same trait would have a different meaning and context for each type.
I think you dismiss 1w9 as a possibility for me and others because you think of E1 in terms of 1w2. I'm pretty sure I've read that 1w9s are more introverted and contemplative than 1w2s. Just because someone isn't running to the picket line doesn't mean they are a Nine rather than a One. 1w9, in my view, is more the type of person to write a philosophical tract on justice than to be screaming profanity into the megaphone at an anti-globalization rally. I am not necessarily saying I'm a 1w9. My point is that you are foolish to dismiss it as a possibility for me and for people like me.
dfgray44
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 11:53:09 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
I don't know where you're getting any of this from.
Me, life experience, observing myself and other 9w1s.
Like Nines are the only type that can be shy. What about 4/5/6?
Fact-based equation containing realness and accuracy and correctness and factuality, all rolled into a square ball of triangulated truth:
shy + mild mannered + stubborn + not listening + skipping around on his selftyping + passive aggression + dreads confrontation + not seeing how radically different the types each are + inadvertent expressions of anger = 9w1
Question: One person gave a thumbs-up a few weeks ago to your list of E1 traits, and you interpreted that as several people approving of the list. What do you think was happening internally that had you see things that way?
skunk
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 11:50:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by skunk
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
And what's that?
That question demonstrates the way you keep everyone going on this board.
How so?
Yeah how so?
- [Stormy]
Stormy, I haven't answered because I am busy observing myself being angry so I can see what happens if I don't act on it or take pot shots at someone while in this mood.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
skunk, what's the question?
1w9 - sp ISFJ
emerald
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 11:48:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by skunk
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
And what's that?
That question demonstrates the way you keep everyone going on this board.
How so?
Yeah how so?
- [Stormy]
Stormy, I haven't answered because I am busy observing myself being angry so I can see what happens if I don't act on it or take pot shots at someone while in this mood.
1w9 - sp ISFJ
skunk, what's the question?
1w9 - sp ISFJ
skunk
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 11:47:27 PM
skunk
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 11:36:49 PM
skunk
Posted - 09 Jul 2012 : 11:29:48 PM
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
quote:Originally posted by Stormy
quote:Originally posted by emerald
quote:Originally posted by EMike583
And what's that?
That question demonstrates the way you keep everyone going on this board.
How so?
Yeah how so?
- [Stormy]
Stormy, I haven't answered because I am busy observing myself being angry so I can see what happens if I don't act on it or take pot shots at someone while in this mood.
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