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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:28:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
(just for the record ptypes, I thought you made good points too.)
Thanks. Here's some more evidence.
"In The Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama recalls how unhappy Michelle was when he decided to run for Congress in 2000—a race he would go on to lose. "My wife's anger toward me seemed barely contained," he writes. "'You only think about yourself,' she would tell me. 'I never thought I'd have to raise a family alone.'"
"It seems logical to assume that if things were that bad in their marriage before, a presidential run would make them exponentially worse. But Michelle says that's not so. "There was an important period of growth in our marriage," she tells me, as matter-of-factly as if she were discussing her morning commute. "He was in the state senate, we had small kids, and it was hard. I was struggling with figuring out how I was going to make it work for me." It was during this period that Michelle started going to the gym before dawn. "This was the epiphany," she says. "I am sitting there with a new baby, angry, tired, and out of shape. The baby is up for that 4 o'clock feeding. And my husband is lying there, sleeping." That's when it struck her that if she weren't there, he would eventually have to wake up. It worked. "I would get home from the gym, and the girls would be up and fed. That was something I had to do for me."
"But even as she was getting out of her own way, making room for her husband to step up, she was realizing that it wasn't his job to make everything perfect. "The big thing I figured out," she says, "was that I was pushing to make Barack be something I wanted him to be for me. I believed that if only he were around more often, everything would be better. So I was depending on him to make me happy. Except it didn't have anything to do with him. I needed support. I didn't necessarily need it from Barack."
http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazine/ss_omag_200711_mobama/7
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Edited by - ptypes on 10 Jan 2009 3:35:18 PM |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:33:46 PM
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When you say "more evidence" what do you mean?
I still see her as an 8.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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Edited by - JoL on 10 Jan 2009 3:34:38 PM |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:38:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by naturechild
quote:
Originally posted by marie
Michelle's Dad was a One.
Also, some Eights turn their need for control into perfectionism. I've seen it before. I'm thinking Paul Newman is a perfectionistic Eight with a big Nine wing.
I just don't think a One would have likely talked about her husband's smelly feet. Kind of blunt...a bit crude. Tactless and tacky. Don't get me wrong - I really like her, but even so...
Also, she lacks any taint of ressentiment. I just can't see One. Her Two comes from integration. Her Five...well, when you have a type One Dad, an Eight learns how to go to her Five.
My mother-in-law is a self-pres first two, and my biggest pet peeve is her seeming lack of tactfulness, she will speak at (ad nauseum) length about her bodily functions while expecting others to hang on her every word because this proves you "care". Tactless, crass, indiscreet and blunt (low eight connection). She has had countless "surgeries" which are a result of hypochondria. I've wondered if she hasn't actually brought her illnesses on herself due to psychosomatics. Also I've felt upset with the medical system. Instead of sending her to counseling and therapy, they will just keep treating her somotized symptoms and continue to profit from them.
There's corruption within the medical system. Pharmaceudical companies offer kick backs (ie. Caribbean
Vacations) to doctors filling quotas when it comes to prescribing certain kinds of medications for off-label use. I recall reading an article about the U.S. government actually bringing a class-action lawsuit against Merck/Medco in an attempt to reclaim and recoup money which was spent treating side affects in the elderly on Medicaid, caused by over-prescription of Neurotin. I also read another expose type article which went on to tell during medical conventions Doctors had open Q&A on the floor about certain medications and pham companies actually send in representatives posing as doctors to provide counter-claim arguements or information when negative's associated with certain meds are questioned and explored.
One simple word "Greed".
As far as eights bluntness I think some eights recognize the value of diplomacy and sophistication in communication and have developed within themselves a certain self awareness which tailors the temptation to express themselves with excessive bluntness. They are aware of the social ramifications of stepping on others toes, and don't wish to become "the bull in the china-shop" because this form of expression alienates others and causes hurt feelings and resentments, not to mention pits others against them.
naturechild,
do you have an opinion about Michelle's e-type? I'm not sure if you're seeing her as an 8 or an sp2.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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Edited by - JoL on 10 Jan 2009 3:39:47 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:41:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
When you say "more evidence" what do you mean?
I still see her as an 8.
Fine, as a Stoic, I'm instructed to do the best I can, but be indifferent to the outcome.
It's evidence like that presented in a court of law. Michelle and Barack Obama and the author of the article are testifying as to the personality and character of Michelle Obama. |
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shakti
Member
USA
7845 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:44:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Delph
Michelle Obama is a woman of convictions : she's directed by her values - superego driven. She keeps herself in check. It's important for her to be good, and to do good. She's not into power as an end, but only as a mean to accomplish good things in the community. I think 2w1 makes sense for her, but I still think 6w5 is possible. She's a passionate advocate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqCYFpUAJ2Q
I see her as a member of 5-8-2 triad...based on this clip. She's not a 5...but there's a tension around the window of opportunity for action or allowing fear to rule that she's tapping into...that rings true to me...to me this is a 5-8 tension. She's using something central to her core that is also something that others more universally can relate to...I do think she has a very strong line to 2. Perhaps an NF 8? I am not see a 2 core...though the notion of sacrifice of personal for something greater to me is very much about the 2 to 4 line. I am not picking up a moralistic undertone of a superego structure. It's more an advocacy for something she believes in...something that she's willing to stand up for. Also, I don't get the sense that she's a native positive outlooker...imo...when one is a non-native positive outlooker...sure there's value in being hopeful and choosing possibility etc...but fundamentally there isn't an inner tension about wanting it to be positive...I don't get the skewing that comes from idealism or the skewing that comes from positive outlooking in this particular clip. If anything, I found myself feeling a type of worry that I feel internally that her truth/words may be a little more unvarnished than what the general public may be able to take in...the type of discomfort I would feel about the 5-8 zone and also about type 4...when they decide to tell it like it is. |
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naturechild
Member
South Sandwich Islands
978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:49:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
quote:
Originally posted by naturechild
quote:
Originally posted by marie
Michelle's Dad was a One.
Also, some Eights turn their need for control into perfectionism. I've seen it before. I'm thinking Paul Newman is a perfectionistic Eight with a big Nine wing.
I just don't think a One would have likely talked about her husband's smelly feet. Kind of blunt...a bit crude. Tactless and tacky. Don't get me wrong - I really like her, but even so...
Also, she lacks any taint of ressentiment. I just can't see One. Her Two comes from integration. Her Five...well, when you have a type One Dad, an Eight learns how to go to her Five.
My mother-in-law is a self-pres first two, and my biggest pet peeve is her seeming lack of tactfulness, she will speak at (ad nauseum) length about her bodily functions while expecting others to hang on her every word because this proves you "care". Tactless, crass, indiscreet and blunt (low eight connection). She has had countless "surgeries" which are a result of hypochondria. I've wondered if she hasn't actually brought her illnesses on herself due to psychosomatics. Also I've felt upset with the medical system. Instead of sending her to counseling and therapy, they will just keep treating her somotized symptoms and continue to profit from them.
There's corruption within the medical system. Pharmaceudical companies offer kick backs (ie. Caribbean
Vacations) to doctors filling quotas when it comes to prescribing certain kinds of medications for off-label use. I recall reading an article about the U.S. government actually bringing a class-action lawsuit against Merck/Medco in an attempt to reclaim and recoup money which was spent treating side affects in the elderly on Medicaid, caused by over-prescription of Neurotin. I also read another expose type article which went on to tell during medical conventions Doctors had open Q&A on the floor about certain medications and pham companies actually send in representatives posing as doctors to provide counter-claim arguements or information when negative's associated with certain meds are questioned and explored.
One simple word "Greed".
As far as eights bluntness I think some eights recognize the value of diplomacy and sophistication in communication and have developed within themselves a certain self awareness which tailors the temptation to express themselves with excessive bluntness. They are aware of the social ramifications of stepping on others toes, and don't wish to become "the bull in the china-shop" because this form of expression alienates others and causes hurt feelings and resentments, not to mention pits others against them.
naturechild,
do you have an opinion about Michelle's e-type? I'm not sure if you're seeing her as an 8 or an sp2.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
Don't mind me I was just relating to what was written about 2's bluntness vs. 8's bluntess.  No opinion about Michelle Obama's type really. |
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shakti
Member
USA
7845 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:57:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
Someone ought to ask entre1 and Alico if they worry a lot.
That's funny. Neither entre nor Alico have a spouse or children to my knowledge. If they end up with 3-9 type spouse, whose primary commitment is to a larger mission that is more than immediate family, I would be curious if those two would not "own" the family structure...I suspect they would.
It sounds like Barack is saying he is easy going and in contrast she worries. It's a matter of degrees, I'd assume. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 3:58:53 PM
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"The belief in marching to your own beat may explain why, in the past, Michelle has been, as her husband tells me, "a reluctant participant" in politics. "I generally have shielded her from most of my campaigns," Barack says. Her disinclination was born of a deep dislike of politics per se, and deeper worries about how campaigns and elected office might affect the couple's two young daughters."
"With this campaign, the worries for the girls have, if anything, deepened. And the dislike of politics hasn't dissolved. Michelle can't bring herself, for instance, to watch the debates; she's too frustrated by their focus on 60-second solutions to what are really 10-year problems. And she's happy to keep her distance from the campaign office fray; when she calls the office—which isn't often—it's usually with a scheduling question. (Barack's top political strategist, David Axelrod, sounds thankful when he says, "She doesn't play the Bigfoot role on a regular basis.")"
http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazine/ss_omag_200711_mobama/3 |
Edited by - ptypes on 10 Jan 2009 3:59:23 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 4:01:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by naturechild
Don't mind me I was just relating to what was written about 2's bluntness vs. 8's bluntess. No opinion about Michelle Obama's type really.
Some Twos can be blunt (especially the One wingers)...but I said that Michelle wasn't blunt and she wasn't a whiner.
Your blunt Two sounds like a whiner to me. :) |
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shakti
Member
USA
7845 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 4:01:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
"But even as she was getting out of her own way, making room for her husband to step up, she was realizing that it wasn't his job to make everything perfect. "The big thing I figured out," she says, "was that I was pushing to make Barack be something I wanted him to be for me. I believed that if only he were around more often, everything would be better. So I was depending on him to make me happy. Except it didn't have anything to do with him. I needed support. I didn't necessarily need it from Barack."
http://www.oprah.com/article/omagazine/ss_omag_200711_mobama/7
This and the previous paragraphc does sound more F than T to me. This may be why people see more 2 in her. Since there's a strong T correlation to 8 and F to 2. |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 4:08:11 PM
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The term "Bigfoot" catches my eye..."she doesn't play the Bigfoot role on a regular basis".
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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Edited by - JoL on 10 Jan 2009 4:10:37 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:07:57 PM
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Thus far from all that's been mentioned on this thread
to me it seems Michelle is in these triads;
Instinctive
Frustrated
Dutiful
Competency
The one number that's in all four of these triads is Type 1.
I'm still not sure of her type though.
Ron |
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shakti
Member
USA
7845 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:24:47 PM
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| I see what you are saying, ron, but to me there's an overlay of 1 stuff that needs to get peeled off (marie I think says it is her father's type) her natural comfort with truth seems to me in at level that is layers darker that what most people are comfortable with. |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:31:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anne
I see what you are saying, ron, but to me there's an overlay of 1 stuff that needs to get peeled off (marie I think says it is her father's type) her natural comfort with truth seems to me in at level that is layers darker that what most people are comfortable with.
I totally agree with this.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:33:41 PM
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hi Anne.
How did we determine Michelle's fathers type ??
Ron
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shakti
Member
USA
7845 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:38:25 PM
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I hope someone can answer you ron. I don't know much about the father...except for his disability having been a significant factor in how their household was structured. While I see hints of type 1, to me that does not feel like her type to me.
I am also curious about her mother's type. Perhaps it has been covered somewhere in the thread already. If so, I've missed it.
JoL, thanks for your comment. |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:42:52 PM
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Before I met Michelle Obama, her brother, Craig Robinson, told me that to really understand her, I'd have to know a little bit about their father. Fraser Robinson worked swing shifts for the city of Chicago, tending the boilers at a water-filtration plant. "My father was not college-educated,'' said Craig, head basketball coach for Oregon State University, but was "full of integrity,'' the "gold standard'' of husbands, and "a hardworking man who raised two kids when he had multiple sclerosis.''
When I sit down with the potential first lady at her husband's Chicago campaign headquarters, I see what her brother was getting at. In nearly an hour with Michelle and her 70-year-old mother, Marian Robinson, nothing comes across more clearly than the extent to which 44-year-old Michelle was molded by the years she spent watching her father, whose determination defined strength for Michelle. She came to see complaining as a moral failing and a show of self-indulgence.
"Seeing a parent with a disability moving through the world and living life as if that disability didn't matter," Michelle says, "always made us think, What do we have to complain about? We wake up, we bound out of bed, we are healthy, we're happy, and our father is struggling to get out of bed. But he never missed a day of work, never talked about being sick. So it made it hard to wake up and say, 'I don't want to go to school.'"
Michelle is candid, yes, sometimes to her detriment, and can come across as overconfident in a way a man similarly lacking in self-doubt might not. But victimhood is not her style. On the contrary, she's disinclined to take political jabs personally and so disinterested in dissecting or answering them that when I invite her to take umbrage, she practically yawns. She's a big girl, she says, and sees that those attacks are not about her, not at all.
"Craig and I had excellent role models, " says Michelle. "My parents didn't go to college, but they were smart, commonsense people who believed in hard work."
Politics wasn't discussed much in their home when Michelle was growing up. "I didn't like to talk about politics'' until fairly recently, Michelle says. For one thing, there seemed to be so many other ways to make a contribution. For a while, she'd hoped to become a pediatrician. "I like kids, and I thought being a doctor was a noble profession.'' But? "Then I got to high school and started taking science. And math.''
Today she works in a medical center, but as an administrator for the University of Chicago Hospitals. She's on leave now but has quadrupled the number of volunteers who come in to lend a hand and rejuvenated a volunteer program to get a similar number of hospital employees to give time to the community-Michelle's old neighborhood-in their off-hours. She's also led a push to get patients who use the ER for routine care connected to neighborhood clinics instead, both to cut costs and to improve preventive care for low-income families.
She's not a big fan of the political process, even now, "because it seems like a dirty business, and Barack is such a nice guy," she says. "I thought, Eventually he'll come to his senses.'' Instead it's she who has come to hers, although a lack of good sense was never an issue for a woman whom friends uniformly describe as the mom most likely to set immovable boundaries for her children. (You don't like what's for lunch? Guess you'll be extra hungry for dinner!) In his first book, Dreams from My Father, her husband wrote of Michelle that "in her eminent practicality and Midwestern attitudes, she reminds me of Toot,'' his maternal grandmother, the no-nonsense Kansan who raised him-and who, after meeting Michelle for the first time, pronounced her "a very sensible girl.''
score one fore marie!
To hear Marian tell it, her daughter was born that way, maybe too much so. As a mom, "Michelle is way stricter, she has way too many rules," says Marian. "I don't think I was that bad. I let them look at TV.'' But then, by Marian's account, Michelle practically raised herself: "I really just think I left her alone,'' she says with a laugh. Both of her kids, she says, "were way smarter than I was, from the very beginning!"
Says Michelle, whose own girls, Sasha and Malia, are seven and ten, "Mama always understates her role.''
At a rally last year in New Hampshire, Michelle described falling in love with her husband's ideals. "He talked about the simple notion that we as Americans understand the world as it is-and it is a world sometimes that is disappointing and unfair-but our job as American citizens is to work toward building the world as it should be." Her husband has written that what he wanted more than anything was to be the kind of father he'd never had. After his parents divorced and his father returned to Africa, he visited him only once. In a speech he gave on Father's Day, Obama said, "I resolved many years ago that it was my obligation to break the cycle-that if I could be anything in life, I would be a good father to my girls.''
Obama wanted a partner who would expect nothing less and a woman who saw parenthood that same way. In a recent interview with Reader's Digest, he credits Michelle with creating a "zone of normalcy" for his daughters. The girls still go to the same school. Michelle dropped them off and picked them up each day until recently, when her mother took over. They still don't have a nanny. "Their lives haven't changed or been disrupted, and that's been Michelle's greatest gift to me," says her husband.
"Eventually I thought, This is a smart man with a good heart, and if the only reason I wouldn't want him to be president is that I'm married to him, no, I can't be that selfish.'' If Barack is elected, Michelle insists, she has no interest in a role beyond that of helpmate and mother. As November approaches, she is impatient with questions about attacks on her: "I could care less-no, I don't want to say that-but I don't worry about me." (She is learning to self-edit.) "I worry about the issues, so the focus should be on moving this ball forward, on the greater good of our kids, the environment, and who cares what they say about me."
......................................................................
She is either an 8 or 1. She could be an 8 with a lot of 1 issues.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 10 Jan 2009 5:48:15 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 5:45:17 PM
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Anne
ok, maybe someone will answer later. thanks.
Ron
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 6:24:35 PM
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"score one for marie"
I don't get that statement. I must have missed something not said.
Ron |
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naturechild
Member
South Sandwich Islands
978 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 7:01:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by naturechild
Don't mind me I was just relating to what was written about 2's bluntness vs. 8's bluntess. No opinion about Michelle Obama's type really.
Some Twos can be blunt (especially the One wingers)...but I said that Michelle wasn't blunt and she wasn't a whiner.
Your blunt Two sounds like a whiner to me. :)
You could say she's a whiner. But, she would also give you the shirt off of her back if she could.
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 7:27:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
"score one for marie"
I don't get that statement. I must have missed something not said.
Ron
marie scored a key insight.
marie wrote this:
"I think she reminds Barack of Toot. That's where his object relation fixation figures into this picture. I bet his grandfather was also a Nine. (It always helps if you can manage an object fixation on a healthy parental figure.)"
and then we find that Obama said this about Michelle long ago:
"in her eminent practicality and Midwestern attitudes, she reminds me of Toot,'' his maternal grandmother, the no-nonsense Kansan who raised him-and who, after meeting Michelle for the first time, pronounced her "a very sensible girl.''
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 8:10:47 PM
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One thing I get from Marie's statements is that it's
most likely Michelle had a neg. OR to her father and
that points to type 1. The job at the hospital points
to types 2 and 1 also. But for what was said about
Michelle's father I get no type.
On Obama's OR I don't see why it wouldn't be with his real mom
and that's most likely pos. to mom.
Is Marie a type 5 by any chance ?
Ron
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Edited by - .ron4 on 10 Jan 2009 8:13:48 PM |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
1634 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 8:21:38 PM
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ron why negative OR to dad? can you elaborate?
i don;t think i entirely understand object relations.
-unrelentingly ridiculous-
current lololo8 status:
random. |
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 8:30:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lovemyth
ron why negative OR to dad? can you elaborate?
i don;t think i entirely understand object relations.
-unrelentingly ridiculous-
current lololo8 status:
random.
It's the childs fixation to parents from their perception of the parent.
It sounds like that Michelle felt she had to please father from his
demands to do the right things. This pressure to do so most likely
results in neg. orientation to father as in type 1s OR.
This does not tell what type Michelles father is.
Does this help ? Did I make sense.?
Ron
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 8:42:06 PM
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Ron
I read the same books you did apparently...the early Riso books.
I also look at OR when typing others, but in Part I, Riso clearly said that he no longer believes the early theories. Now he believes that type is inborn, and the child will see the parent(s) as the type would. The relationship doesn't cause the type, it's more the opposite. I have to believe Riso now, especially because when I use the original OR theory to type someone, it often throws it off.
Another thing, it doesn't sound like Michelle had a bad relationship with her father. It sounds like she had a lot of respect for him, so that would possibly make her a 6 in the old way of thinking.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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Edited by - JoL on 10 Jan 2009 8:43:33 PM |
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Topic |
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What type is Michelle Obama?
