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ptypes
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  12:48:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit ptypes's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"The Power and Cost of Fame"

"Sue Erikson Boland, daughter of the eminent psychoanalyst and author, Erik Erikson, struggled through most of her life to reconcile the larger than life image of her famous father with the fragile and insecure man she knew him to be. As a result, she believes that she has “come to understand something general about the nature of fame,” which she outlines in an essay entitled “Fame: the Power and Cost of a Fantasy,” published in “The Atlantic Monthly,” (November 1999).

"Although she has enormous respect for her father’s brilliance and his accomplishments, she believes that his strong need to strive to be famous and enjoy the fruits of such fame had its origin in a deeply felt sense of “personal inadequacy” and “punishing self-doubt.” She has come to the conclusion that it is “shame,” which she defines as “a sense that the self is deeply flawed or deficient,” that “lies behind an exaggerated public image of strength, confidence, well-being, or benevolence” that characterizes famous individuals; and that what lies behind the powerful drive for fame is “an early experience of shame so overwhelming to the sense of self that to become someone extraordinary seems the only way to defend against it.”"

http://rogerhollander.wordpress.com/category/rogers-archived-writing/literary-essays-roger/the-power-and-cost-of-fame/

Edited by - ptypes on 23 Jan 2009 12:49:05 PM
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ptypes
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  1:11:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit ptypes's Homepage  Reply with Quote
“Fame: the Power and Cost of a Fantasy,” published in “The Atlantic Monthly,” (November 1999).

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99nov/9911fame.htm

"When a person feels so deeply flawed that he or she cannot imagine ever "fitting in" in human society, a solution is to imagine rising above human society. This is the narcissistic solution to shame: If I am not lovable for who I am, I will have to make people admire me for what I can do -- and that is how I will make sure that I am never abandoned and alone. The ultimate threat of the experience of shame, after all, is that one will be rejected or ostracized as unworthy of human companionship. And the ultimate motive for seeking extraordinary success, power, or fame is to make sure that this most feared rejection never happens."

Edited by - ptypes on 23 Jan 2009 1:13:35 PM
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ptypes
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  2:19:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit ptypes's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I find that most 7w8 women have long narrow heads with long narrow noses, like this:




To me they also have somewhat of a "horsey" look: for example, Jacqueline Suzanne and Lauren Becall.






A Republican 7w8 woman to compare to Palin is Anne Coulter.





"What makes a person look horsey?" - Yahoo Answers
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081003122438AAC6lT9

Edited by - ptypes on 23 Jan 2009 2:59:26 PM
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Odyssey
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  4:26:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ptypes

“Fame: the Power and Cost of a Fantasy,” published in “The Atlantic Monthly,” (November 1999).

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99nov/9911fame.htm

"When a person feels so deeply flawed that he or she cannot imagine ever "fitting in" in human society, a solution is to imagine rising above human society. This is the narcissistic solution to shame: If I am not lovable for who I am, I will have to make people admire me for what I can do -- and that is how I will make sure that I am never abandoned and alone. The ultimate threat of the experience of shame, after all, is that one will be rejected or ostracized as unworthy of human companionship. And the ultimate motive for seeking extraordinary success, power, or fame is to make sure that this most feared rejection never happens."


Interesting correlation. Thanks ptypes.


Something about life being an adventure.
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The Enneagram Institute
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  4:32:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit The Enneagram Institute's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Everyone,

It might be helpful to go back to the text of Personality Types to see how we have described type Three ("The Achiever") which we are more certain than ever fits President Barack Obama. A documentary about his life has recently been released which we will offer a transcript of next week on this Board. We think the information (especially from staffers and campaign managers as well as from people who have known Obama well for years), will confirm his type once and for all--but more on that later.

BTW, we did not say, as someone mentioned in a post, that we think Obama is at Level 1, or that he is always manifesting his "Missing Piece" at Nine, or that he is at Level 5. In a past post, we quoted a paragraph from Level 1 and another paragraph from Level 5 to indicate the general range or "bandwidth" that we think he fluctuates in along the Levels of his type. In general, we think that Obama is healthy, operating at Levels 3 dand 4 of the Three, sometimes rising higher, sometimes dropping slightly lower, as most of us do around the "center of gravity" of our type.

We also see from some of the discussion on this thread that there are some misconceptions about how the Enneagram works in terms of the arrows and the Enneagram's ability to predict how each type will react in different psychological states. It seems that there are some confusions about the distinctions between a Three going to Six as his/her Direction of Integration (in the healthy Levels of Three and Six), as distinct from a Three moving to Six as their "Security Point" in the average to unhealthy Levels.

Likewise, a Three goes to Nine as their Direction of Disintegration / Stress in the average to unhealthy Levels, and only after much Inner Work and personal growth is able to access and hold the healthiest Levels of Nine in the integration of their "Missing Piece." (This, of course, is a crude way of speaking about a subtle shift of attention and consciousness, although the effects of these shifts can be seen in the person's presence and behavior, as some on this DB have noted.) We have not spelled out all of these teachings even in Wisdom, but we do in our Trainings and Workshops, and will be in future writings.

Unfortunately, it seems that many people on this DB have not read all of our books, even the two most comprehensive, Personality Types and The Wisdom of the Enneagram, making it difficult for them to access the whole sweep of each type---to see how various (often conflicting) traits fit into the whole picture, to see underlying motivations, and to understand other features that must be taken into account for a correct diagnosis of any type. We therefore hope that quoting Levels 2 and 3 of type Three from Personality Types in full here will be helpful for this discussion.

quote:
Level 2: The self-assured Person

Even healthy Threes are not always this healthy. Instead of being inner-directed, they more typically start looking outside themselves to find out what others value. They become adept at determining what qualities are esteemed by people who are important to them, and adapt themselves so as to become a person with those same qualities. Although Threes are still authentic and purposeful people, they have begun to shift from following their own hearts to seeking validation and recognition from others.

Since they possess the most exquisite social instincts, healthy Threes are extraordinarily well adapted to other people, effortlessly responding to attention the way leaves turn their faces to catch sunlight. Every shift of emotion, every variation of warmth or cooling by others registers immediately in the Three's psyche, in the same way that a sunbather can tell when the thinnest cloud comes between himself and the sun. Healthy Threes possess a talent parallel to the Twos’ empathy in their ability to read people and situations. Upon entering a room, Threes immediately sense the prevailing mood of others and are able to respond effectively and sensitively to the situation. This ability puts others at their ease and usually causes them to respond favorably to the Three’s presence. When Threes bask in the approving attention of others, they positively glow. The affirmation and attention of others makes them feel alive and good about themselves.

At Level 2, Threes have begun to seek the positive regard of others because they have succumbed to a fear that they are worthless, without value in and of themselves. In a way that is again similar to the dilemma of the Twos, Threes feel they can only get a sense of their own value by obtaining the praise and recognition of significant others in their lives. To the extent that Threes were not seen or valued for themselves in childhood, they will begin to turn their focus away from their own needs and feelings to determine what behaviors, qualities, and attitudes will make them valued within their world. To this end, Threes develop their ability to adapt along with their talent for reading other’s expectations to a fine degree.

Their psychic dynamics are difficult to analyze precisely because there is a subtle interaction continually taking place between Threes and other people. The affirming attention of others makes Threes feel desirable, and they respond to people by adapting themselves to the values they perceive in others. Others seeing their ideal selves reflected in Threes, continue to shower them with attention--and the interaction is sustained. When they are healthy, Threes are able to maintain this “feedback loop” because they really are embodying qualities that others admire, and they are secure enough in themselves to give genuine affirmation and positive attention to others. However, because they are not entirely inner-directed, this self-esteem requires maintenance. Not only do Threes feel the need to adapt themselves to others, they begin to give themselves inner “pep talks” designed to keep them feeling self-assured and convinced of their own worth, as if always saying to themselves, "I am a valuable, significant person."

One way that Threes convince themselves of their worth is by focusing on their potential. Healthy Threes really work at maintaining a “can do” attitude and feel that they are able to accomplish goals and get things done. They took to heart the often repeated message from childhood, “You can be anything you want to be if you set your mind to it.” Indeed, Threes often function as the “hero” in their family, the child who is an athletic star or gets straight A’s on their report card or gets cast as the lead in the school play. In healthy Threes, however, this sense of potential and possibility is tempered by a well-grounded realism and a steadiness of purpose which gives Threes the ability to actually achieve many of their goals.

Their apparent self-assurance and positive attitude make healthy Threes extremely attractive, which encourages more interactions and more affirmation of themselves. Other people are also attracted to Threes because, as a group, they are often physically attractive, and even if they are not particularly attractive by a culture’s standards, Threes usually know how to put their best foot forward, making the best of whatever positive attributes they do possess. In any event, Threes learn to be attractive in the broader sense of the word. They know how to attract other people, how to get others interested in them, and how to have others enjoy being in their presence. They possess a magnetism and aura of desirability which is exciting to be around.

Desirability and attractiveness (both physically and personally) are important qualities for human beings because, on a biological level, we must attract others for the propagation of the species. But we are also social creatures and, to a certain degree, we all need the good regard of others in order to accomplish things in life and if we are to feel good about ourselves. And people of no other personality type are more suited to attracting favorable attention to themselves than healthy Threes.


Level 3: The Outstanding Paragon

Just as negative feelings about oneself reinforce each other, so do positive feelings. Because healthy Threes want to feel good about themselves, they engage in constructive activities that will increase their self-esteem. Having worked to convince themselves of their own value and worth, they begin to fear that others will reject them or be disappointed by them. As a result, healthy Threes invest time and energy developing themselves, making themselves into outstanding individuals in some way.

Healthy Threes are ambitious, and eager to improve themselves in any number of ways--academically, physically, culturally, professionally, and intellectually. They are not ambitious for money or fame or social standing, but to make more of themselves. There is much to admire in healthy Threes because they really do embody something excellent. They are worthy of the admiration of others because they are outstanding, frequently model persons in whatever sphere of activity they enter into--whether the Olympics, or West Point, or medical school. They are well-adjusted, well-rounded boys and girls, men and women who embody the values that the culture admires. (Of course, a particular Three may not embody the values you personally admire or would like to possess, but what he or she always embodies are those values which are affirmed by the Three’s own cultural and social environment.) Thus, Threes are living models of the culture's values, the paragons by which we see and assess ourselves.

Because they possess outstanding qualities, healthy Threes are also able to motivate other people to develop themselves. Others see in Threes what they could be like if they made the effort to develop their potential as Threes have. Moreover, healthy Threes are willing to help others attain the qualities that they embody. If they are terrific dancers, they will teach you how to dance; if they are bodybuilders, they will share helpful tips and work out with you at the gym; if they have made a killing on the stock market, they will help you get into the market too.

In the workplace, healthy Threes are extremely capable and competent. They focus on goals and like to see projects through from start to finish. They also inspire team morale with their high-spirits and industriousness. Threes persist through adversity, because they are convinced that hard work will pay off in accomplishing the goals that they have set for themselves. They are also effective communicators, able to motivate others to take on tasks or contribute money to worthy causes. Indeed, healthy Threes are often sought out by organizations as spokespersons to represent them to the public. In such positions, their poise, charm, and confidence act as powerful incentives to others who wish to emulate them.

Not every moment is geared toward effectiveness and self-development. Healthy Threes are extremely charming and lively; they are highly energetic, youthful, and rambunctious, like healthy animals frisking in the sunlight. Their sense of humor admits of a degree of self-mockery, an enjoyment of their own foibles and minor pretensions, which is as disarming as it is charming. These traits, added to their attractiveness and other admirable qualities, result in healthy Threes' being in great social demand, because they are so stimulating to be around.

Almost everyone would like to be like a healthy Three, at least in some way. Who would not like to be attractive and at ease with themselves and with others? Who would not like to be self-assured and endowed with the energy and motivation to make the most of their potential? Who would not like to enjoy being themselves as healthy Threes so evidently do? When they are healthy, Threes are truly stars. When people are in their presence, they are aware of something special about them.


In another post, soon to follow, we will quote Levels 4 and 5 from Personality Types in full. Hope all of this helps....

--
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.ron4
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  4:33:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit .ron4's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ptypes


"When a person feels so deeply flawed that he or she cannot imagine ever "fitting in" in human society, a solution is to imagine rising above human society. This is the narcissistic solution to shame: If I am not lovable for who I am, I will have to make people admire me for what I can do -- and that is how I will make sure that I am never abandoned and alone. The ultimate threat of the experience of shame, after all, is that one will be rejected or ostracized as unworthy of human companionship. And the ultimate motive for seeking extraordinary success, power, or fame is to make sure that this most feared rejection never happens."



Thanks ptypes, this is something I had suspected was possible.

Ron



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The Enneagram Institute
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  4:42:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit The Enneagram Institute's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Everyone,

As just mentioned above, here is the text in full from Personality Types for Levels 4 and 5 in the average range of type Three, "The Achiever." We believe that anyone reading these descriptions (from Levels 2-5) will not have to strain or over-interpret the text to see Barack Obama in these descriptions.

And, of course, we must always keep in mind that NO DESCRIPTION can ever be complete or adequately describle the almost infinite complexity and sublety of the human personality, mind, or spirit. Keeping this in mind, here are the descriptions of the average Three at Levels 4 and 5:

quote:
Level 4: The Competitive Status-Seeker

A shift in attitude now takes place: Threes begin to want to distinguish themselves from others. It is no longer a question of working hard to feel worthwhile: average Threes want to be noticed. They begin to compare themselves with others, fearing that they may be overshadowed by others accomplishments. This inevitably sets up a need to compete with people, although at this point, the competition is mostly subtle and covert. Average Threes want to demonstrate to themselves and to their peers that they are extraordinary, superior people. They do this by working harder than others, and by acquiring whatever symbols represent success and achievement to them: diplomas, raises, a prestigious address, a recording contract, a special position with their teacher or guru. Rising above others reinforces their self-esteem, defending Threes from deeper feelings of worthlessness by temporarily making them feel more desirable and more worthy of attention and admiration.

To this end, Threes literally throw themselves into their projects, their careers, and whatever else they are doing to enhance their self-esteem. They are truly “Type A” personalities, driven and potentially workaholic. Of course, not all Threes are in fast-track Wall Street careers; however, whatever “career” a Three has chosen will be a major focal point of their energy. A Three who is a housewife and mother will work within the framework of her economic means to create a “model home.” She will strive to make her children outstanding, providing them with lessons and sending them to the best schools possible. A Three who is a Buddhist monk will work to become the most holy and selfless of his brothers. Average Threes want to excel at whatever they are involved with, and if possible, they want to be the best.

For example, they may be good swimmers or tennis players, but they begin to feel that this is not enough to suppress their fears of worthlessness, so they must outdo everyone else. Average Threes therefore create rivalries where none existed. Unfortunately, creating these comparisons puts all their relationships on an entirely new footing because they have put themselves in the position of competing with people whose positive regard they need.

Indeed, average Threes are more directed by the values of others, and work even harder to achieve goals they believe to be sanctioned as worthwhile by their peers. This begins to result in a growing estrangement from their own desires and feelings. After all, it is difficult to stay focused on goals when one’s heart does not entirely support them. Feelings, then become a distraction, something that interferes with the Three’s ability to function, to stay “on track.” Average Threes are not concerned with what they have or do because they enjoy it, but because it makes them feel that they are “getting ahead.”

Average Threes pursue success with an efficiency unrivaled by any other personality type. (We can characterize average Threes in a nutshell by the three things they value most highly: career,, success, and recognition.) Success to Threes means being number one, a “winner,” constantly improving their position or status. To be sure, average Threes work hard to get and stay on top. They value professional competence and aim at being the best at what they do, mainly for the prestige of being at the top of their profession. This is the world of the résumé and the “rat race.”

At this stage, they are careerists, since professional success becomes the primary gauge by which they measure their value as persons. Plotting career moves relentlessly, they want to advance as quickly as possible and are willing to make big sacrifices to achieve the success they seek. Unfortunately, these sacrifices can include a marriage, family, or friends, not to mention their own feelings. Having a prestigious title or profession is important to average Threes because it reinforces their sense of themselves as successful. (For the same reason, their self-esteem is highly threatened if they do not have a prestigious career, and doubly so if they are unemployed.)

Because success is so important to average Threes and because they have begun competing with others, they learn to present themselves more favorably and acquire the skills of diplomacy. While being diplomatic can be useful in many situations, in average Threes it marks the beginning of a move away from authentic self-expression. Threes are starting to mask their motives and to communicate with others to produce a desired response, not to express what the Three is actually thinking or feeling. Further, this orientation can lead them to become strategic about their friends and associates. To maintain “upward mobility” good political sense and having the right friends and associates is critical. They are forever networking, making contacts and cultivating people to further their careers and add to their social luster. The healthy talent for reading people is now used to size up others quickly according to their prestige value, as if to ask, "How can you help me achieve my goal? Are you worth pursuing?"

Average Threes become highly status-conscious, and are constantly assessing whether they are “moving forward” or not by looking for tangible symbols of their progress. But even these can fail them if one of their peers suddenly has something more valuable or gets greater respect or admiration. They are still highly organized and goal-directed, but somehow, their focus is becoming distorted. What is the Three’s goal? Is it their own self-improvement and the accomplishment of specific tasks or is it winning the recognition and attention of others? Increasingly, it is the latter.


Level 5: The Image-Oriented Pragmatist

Fearful of losing the positive regard of others because of their increasing competitiveness, average Threes begin to submerge their feelings and intentions even further, and become preoccupied with creating a favorable impression of themselves. This marks a significant stage in a Three’s development or deterioration. Healthier Threes may be competitive, but they are primarily focused on their own actual efforts and achievements. They are interested in genuine self-improvement. Lower average to unhealthy Threes, however, are primarily interested in improving their self-presentation, their image. They want to make a favorable impression, whether or not the image they project reflects who they actually are. Style over substance--how one comes across to others--becomes their overriding concern.

Fear of rejection causes average Threes to increasingly abandon themselves as they search for the “right combination” of factors which they believe will enhance them and make them more acceptable to others. Their self-presentation becomes smooth and professional, their appearance more calculated. The Three’s tremendous energy is poured into developing a polished veneer which will hopefully “pass muster” and win them the success they desire. Of course, such attention to image betrays an underlying self-doubt. Average Threes have rejected themselves, and are determined to come up with a “package” which will be more worthwhile and valuable than they perceive their authentic selves to be.

Ironically, the result is that average Threes become less desirable as genuine human beings and more desirable as commodities. Image-oriented Threes correspond, in part, to the personality type described by Erich Fromm as the marketing orientation.

quote:
The character orientation which is rooted in the experience of oneself as a commodity and of one's value as exchange value.... Success depends largely on how well a person sells himself on the market, how well he gets his personality across, how nice a 'package' he is....A stockbroker, a salesman, a secretary, a railroad executive, a college professor, or a hotel manager must each offer different kinds of personality that, regardless of their differences, must fulfill one condition: to be in demand....The marketing orientation . . . does not develop something which is potentially in the person (unless we make the absurd assertion that 'nothing' is also part of the human equipment); its very nature is that no specific and permanent kind of relatedness is developed, but that the very changeability of attitudes is the only permanent quality of such orientation. In this orientation, those qualities are developed which can best be sold. Not one particular attitude is predominant, but the emptiness which can be filled most quickly with the desired quality. This quality, however, ceases to be one in the proper sense of the word; it is only a role, the pretense of a quality, to be readily exchanged if another one is more desirable." (Fromm: Man for Himself, 76-77, 84.)

Average Threes become obsessed with how they are coming across to others. The worry about what impression they are making and constantly wonder what people think of them. Issues of being successful enough, competent enough, and attractive enough continually replay in their minds. They feel as if every eye is on them and they must always be prepared with the right look, the right thing to say, the right level of affect. Naturally, this orientation does not allow them to express their own genuine feelings and responses. In fact, average Threes have increasing difficulty even knowing what their own feelings are.

The problem is that they act according to the needs of the image they are projecting, not according to their own real needs and not because they sincerely believe in what they are saying or doing. Average Threes learn to project one simulated emotional state after another, each appropriate to the situation and each equally convincing. They may appear to be sincere, friendly, modest, kindly, repentant, virtuous, and truthful, although they may not be. They may have only adjusted their image to meet the demands of the moment so that others will think well of them. What they appear to be and what they actually are begin to be quite different. Thus, there is an element of slickness, an emotional hollowness about average Threes because much of what they say and do is not a true reflection of who they are. "Who they are" is becoming ever more difficult to identify, both for others and for themselves.

Average Threes know how to package themselves to fit into their environment successfully. Entire industries have been devoted to this aspect of human behavior: the advertising and fashion industries understand and manipulate these fears. The professional and corporate worlds are full of highly paid image consultants who teach others how to put together the right look, master professional jargon, and erase any annoying regionalisms in the person’s speech or style. Like the changing coloration of a chameleon, an image is useful to the degree that it allows one to fit into the environment perfectly. Their image allows Threes to do just that, only one better: they do not merely fit into the environment, they may perfect their image to the extent that it becomes the standard by which others judge themselves. The image assumes a reality of its own once others accept it as desirable.

It is important to stress how subtle average Threes can be in projecting a believable image, and how difficult it is for others to detect whatever degree of inauthenticity is involved, especially if a particular Three is intelligent and well-educated. This personality type is by no means limited to vacuous television game show hosts, beauty contestants, or cloned yuppies. Average Threes can be found everywhere, in every profession, from MBA's to self-help instructors, from sports figures to politicians, from artists to network anchorpersons.

The clue to others that they are dealing with an image rather than a person is the average Three's apparent perfection. Threes come across extremely well (the cool, composed, “friendly” professional is typical), although others may notice a somewhat detached, rehearsed quality about them. Threes, however, are aware of others’ reactions to them even if they are largely unaware of their own reactions. If others seem put off, they will redouble their efforts and make further adjustments, or apologies if necessary.

It is precisely because their behavior is so well-considered that it is difficult for others to put their finger on what Threes lack. If, however, others look deeply enough, they will find almost nothing "essential" about average Threes--they express few genuine feelings and have few deeply held personal convictions. They seem to have no idiosyncrasies and no passion beneath the smoothly-polished surface. Although everything about them seems perfect, the various images do not add up to a whole person. What is missing is a personal sense of engagement and commitment. Average Threes are not connected with themselves--with their own feelings. They are like perfectly engineered machines which perform precisely as expected and therefore continue to be in demand.

As one might expect, there are difficulties with this orientation. Average Threes fear genuine intimacy lest anyone discover their inner emptiness. They have come to fear that their authentic self is worthless and become increasingly unwilling to let others see the vulnerable self beneath the image. It is an extraordinary sign of trust and respect for someone when an average Three dares to reveal themselves to them. More often, however, with their considerable charm and ability to adapt to people, Threes are able to create the impression of intimacy, seemingly revealing more of themselves than they really do. This is why average Threes are typically concerned with their credibility, with whether people believe the idealized image which they are constructing.

Although Threes are detaching from their own feelings in order to become whatever they believe would be a more acceptable, worthwhile person, they are increasingly unconvincing because their emotional disengagement is becoming evident to others. Being disconnected from their feelings allows Threes to be extremely efficient at work, unusually able to focus their energy on attaining professional goals. Expedient and goal-oriented, they are good at practical problem solving because their pragmatism allows them to respond to situations without being constrained by abstract principles or turbulent emotions. When feelings do arise, average Threes tend to feel out of control and lost. They emote quickly and strongly, but want to get “back to business” as soon as possible. Their feelings are increasingly strange and unfamiliar territory to them--they threaten to destroy their focus as well as their image of efficiency.

As a result, Threes become unsure of what they feel about things. They have spent so much time trying to become someone else that they have difficulty access their own beliefs and responses. They can take either side of an issue--and switch to the opposite side with incredible ease--because their passions and personal convictions have become a mystery to them. Instead, they learn to rely on techniques and formulas, whether in their careers or their personal lives. Average Threes are masters of jargon, supreme manipulators of symbols to effect their ends, whether to elect a president, sell a toothpaste, or promote themselves. Others begin to sense that the friendliness of average Threes is often out of expediency. They have places to go and things to accomplish, and become increasingly brisk, efficient, and emotionally detached.

Because they are losing contact with their own heart’s desire, the only source of guidance for Threes at this Level is "what works." While they are well suited to mastering technical problems, average Threes are usually not good leaders because they lack personal vision, have few strongly held values, and little empathy for others. Unfortunately, however, average Threes are often attracted to positions of leadership because prestige is involved. The upshot is that they lead by following, by telling people what they want to hear rather than what they need to do. Once the image becomes the reality, it takes on a false life of its own.



--
The Enneagram Institute
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The Enneagram Institute
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  5:25:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit The Enneagram Institute's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Everyone,

Here is the passage in Personality Types that may help put things into persepctive....

quote:
Furthermore, this book is not, and cannot be, the last word on either the Enneagram or personality types. There will always be more to be said, new connections to be made and new understandings to be reached. Perhaps the mysteries of the psyche can never be fully described because they may never be fully understood. How can human beings stand outside of themselves to study human nature in a totally objective way? How can we ever be completely subjective toward others and objective toward ourselves, as Kierkegaard suggests? Psychologists who try to describe human nature are themselves human beings subject to all the distortions and self-deceptions of which humans are capable. No one has a "God's-eye view" of the whole of human nature, so no one can say with absolute confidence what it all means. This is why there will always be an element of faith to psychology, not necessarily religious faith, to be sure, but a set of beliefs about human beings which goes beyond what can be demonstrated scientifically.

This is why attaining some kind of final, objective truth about ourselves is probably impossible. What may be more important than arriving at ultimate answers is being searchers on the quest. Through the process of honestly seeking the truth about ourselves, we gradually liberate ourselves from many painful and limiting behaviors and beliefs about who we are. Thus, gradually, and in ways we do not expect, we are transformed into persons who are fuller, more life-affirming and self-transcending. (page 10)

Again, hope all of this helps. Given a certain degree of ambiguity, we can be only relatively sure of Barack Obama's type---or of our own. There are always "loose ends" and oddities and contradictions that cannot be explained by any system. But it is our belief (and probably the belief of most of those on this Board) that the Enneagram is the most comprehensive, powerfully explanatory, and precisely predictive typology there is.

Yet, the Enneagram is limited both in itself as a mental construct and in our capacity to understand human nature (which does not have a "God's eye view of the whole"). But that should not prevent us from attempting to understand ourselves and our fellow human beings. To do so brings the possibility of acceptance, love, authenticity, forgiveness, compassion, inclusiveness, gratitutde, magnanimity, and communion with all of reality. It is a noble enterprise.

--
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lilalove
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Haiti
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  6:38:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit lilalove's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well, you might want to look into who made the documentary. there is a big rush now for the far right to paint Obama in [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] low health 3 colors.
Cherry picking is easy. That's how we went to war.


Obama is unchanging to the point of being an utter bore once you figure him out. Obama is steadfast.

Why don't you post type 9 level 3-5?

I guess in the end people will read into Obama what they want.

All I can say is the progressive/left's joy with Obama is growing by the day. So what ever Obama's type... he was not BSing his base on the campaign trail.

Obama is no shifty 3w4 at level 5 who does not keep his word out of political back-lash fears.








The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8

Edited by - lilalove on 23 Jan 2009 8:33:16 PM
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Dee
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  9:13:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit Dee's Homepage  Reply with Quote
lila, just forget about it. The Enneagram Type 1 is always right and that's what has been said by them time and again on this thread back[blocked due to guideline #4 violation]forward, anyway you slice it, they are right and that is all there can be said of it. So much for the thread. pff


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dee says: Priorities are only effective when in the right order! (Type 1)
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pork
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Posted - 23 Jan 2009 :  9:31:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit pork's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Enneagram Institute: Here is the passage in Personality Types

Our differences in opinion do not seem to be primarily a matter of what the book says. I am familiar enough with the quoted material that I would probably notice if a phrase were changed, but I do not differ over the presence of those phrases, nor have I forgotten them.

Our major point of contention involves the character and motives of the president himself more than the details of the typologies. According to me, you have read motives into his self-presentation and general life history that may be the product of myopic speculation, baseless projection, or, at best, misleading, campaign-spawn mythologizing.

The matter of the nature and extent of his ambition, or the motive behind his achievement, is a key point; some of us seem to have good reasons for not sharing your interpretation of his personality.

In other words, the problem is not so much that we interpret the personality type model differently as that we interpret Obama the person differently.

Reading the book is the easy part. Reading the man is the real challenge, and we should be examining our differences of opinion in that vein. That may be more challenging than redundantly posting excerpts from Personality Types, but it also may be a more rewarding approach.

^(oo)^

4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ

Edited by - pork on 23 Jan 2009 10:01:01 PM
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Dee
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Enneagram Institute, if I may. You can not start off with self-validation that Barack is Type 3 and then precede and tell us all that we might be wise to reflect on our own way of perceiving the Enneagram in it's entirety thus ending off the conversation that Barack is in your view Type 3. And for those who disagree or not, here is some food for thought. It doesn't fly! Nice try though.
I'm still not convienced he's a three and I've been around for a few years now and though that may or may not mean I have embrassed the true essense of the Enneagram, had I been under the understanding from the beginning of this thread your intentions was to have me embrace, perhaps I would have. It comes to conclusion that this entire thread was not of use to you and so be it.



4w3 sx/sp/so

dee says: Priorities are only effective when in the right order! (Type 1)

Edited by - Dee on 23 Jan 2009 9:41:10 PM
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lilalove
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  01:25:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit lilalove's Homepage  Reply with Quote
3 DAYS OF UNDOING BUSH

Obama Signs Order To Close Guantanamo... Shutters CIA 'Black Site' Prisons... Forbids Torture Of Detainees... Lifts Abortion 'Gag Rule'... Freezes Proposals On Easing Emissions... Revives Freedom Of Information Act...

you know... after reading an 11 page bio about Obama "The Conciliator. Where is Barack Obama coming from?" I would have been sure Obama was a detached overly smooth creepy 3w4 at level 5. I would have been sure he would not have had the nerve to pass so many lefty campaign promises in the first 3 days because the story pretty much promises disappointment in Obama in that fashion. Saying Obama did not fight for principles. The story was written in the New Yorker during the primaries when Obama was running against Hillary. I could not help but get the uncanny feeling that the 11 pages were written to paint a picture of Obama that left us unsure and a little worried about who he really was. He seemed smooth to the point of slimy and devoid of honest feelings. I have found that The New Yorker wrote many stories about Obama that shaded Obama in rather creepy lights.. back when he was running against Hillary... the sen. from New York.
Hmmmm

The thing I have learned about bio stories about Obama is that they often get the nature of Obama very, very wrong... on purpose.


The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8

Edited by - lilalove on 24 Jan 2009 01:39:39 AM
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Stormy
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  06:16:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lilalove

The thing I have learned about bio stories about Obama is that they often get the nature of Obama very, very wrong... on purpose.


What makes you think that?

[Stormy]
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lilalove
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  09:48:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit lilalove's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The same way I know that FOX NEWS journalism is full of bias as is MSNBC.

The New Yorker was full of extraordinarily favorable bios of Hillary Clinton and far less so for Obama. They have him as a cut throat heartless social climber in one. They come to this conclusion because a Hillary Clinton backer says he really screwed her over because he brought it to attention she was not following the law when she broke her word to him and tried to stab him in the back. Oh, that cut throat Obama. It was pure projection on her part.

I know the stories. I also know when people twist them to make them look like something other than what they were.

Obama can get 1ish. We will see it over and over again these next 4 years.

Some will try to paint it as him being low health 3w4 at 5. They are free to buy into the spin. Ron and pata_pata have done a good job on this thread already proving what I mean.

And as Pork pointed out... it's not so much the behavior as it is the motivation behind it.

People are free to read what ever motivation they wish into Obama. As they do with everyone.



The super real sx/so
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Edited by - lilalove on 24 Jan 2009 10:39:56 AM
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lilalove
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  10:15:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit lilalove's Homepage  Reply with Quote
the contrast between the Obama of the book and Obama today is striking “He was grounded, comfortable in his own skin, knew who he was, where he came from, why he believed things,” Kenneth Mack, a friend of Obama’s from Harvard and now a professor there, says. “When I read the book, I was surprised—the confusion and the anger that he described, maybe they were there below the surface, but they were not manifest at all.” Asked about this, Obama says, “You know, what puzzles me is why people are puzzled by that. That angry character lasts from the time I was fifteen to the time I was twenty-one or so. I guess my explanation is I was an adolescent male with a lot of hormones and an admittedly complicated upbringing. But that wasn’t my natural temperament. And the book doesn’t describe my entire life. I could have written an entirely different book, about the joys of basketball and what it’s like to bodysurf as the sun’s going down on a sandy beach.”


Now.. some people have painted that as Obama being a slick con man. Because you know... he grew from being a teenager into a man.

And he must of wrote the book to gain votes someday... even though it did nothing of the kind. The book was way to honest. It proved, if nothing else, politically inconvenient.






The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8

Edited by - lilalove on 24 Jan 2009 10:38:21 AM
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dfgray44
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  11:22:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit dfgray44's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Again, I submit the question: Why would a Three pick E9 as something to emulate? E9, as a concept, is wholly unimpressive - nice guy, laidback, calm, stable - where's the 'golden boy' in that? The reply that 'E9' was ultimately a winning strategy for him doesn't cover the consistency of his E9-ness, apparent over years. And why pick only that one personality style to emulate - why not some others? Don't Threes allow themselves a larger palette of 'winning styles'?

Also, again, Threes aren't going to describe their identity crises in a vulnerable fashion (as he does in his books). The E3 'image factory' is a backstage project - not for public consumption. If he's an E3, the books themselves should have been part of the image-creation machine; instead, they're a revelation about his struggles with 'who he is' (group-wise). Typical of any soc-first of any E-type.

My interpretation of the major part of the EI's mistake, here, is that they haven't fleshed-out the significance and meaning of each of the IV stackings, and how these can distort the E-typing process.

But, perchance, that they would read the following:

soc/sp
This type is often the most comfortable in group settings, but tends to be a bit formal and awkward in one to one relations. This is the natural political type, affiliating themselves with groups or theories which best defend their social and material interests. They may lack warmth and individual identity and this could lead to problems in forming meaningful relationships outside of a shared social interest. The motivation for this type is to attain status within their chosen sphere - the "social climber."


The above alludes to the 'distance' that can be seen as 3-ish - and would be an unusual note in a 9 (at least as E9 usually reads, on paper). Another example of the 'distortion' possible from this stacking: With Hilary Clinton (so/sp), we see social-climber behavior, which essentially would never be part of the description of 1w2.










********* / *


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Stormy
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  11:52:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lilalove

And he must of wrote the book to gain votes someday...


Why did he write the book(s)?



[Stormy]
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Estranged Protractor
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  12:07:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Estranged Protractor's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy

quote:
Originally posted by lilalove

And he must of wrote the book to gain votes someday...


Why did he write the book(s)?



[Stormy]


He was asked to after becoming the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.

Other than that, I think we'd have to ask him why he took the publishing offer up.

quote:
The coverage prompted a call to him from Jane Dystel, a gravelly-voiced literary agent. . . . Ms. Dystel suggested Mr. Obama write a book proposal. Then she got him a contract with Poseidon Press, a now-defunct imprint of Simon & Schuster. When he missed his deadline, she got him another contract and a $40,000 advance from Times Books.
Mr. Obama’s original plan was to write a book about race relations. But, sitting down to write, he found his mind "pulled toward rockier shores." So the book became more personal — the record of an interior journey, as he put it in the introduction, "a boy's search for his father, and through that a search for a workable meaning for his life as a black American."
via a google search and this site: rsmccain.blogspot.com/2008/05/authors-against-obama.html

______________________________________
Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity!

Edited by - Estranged Protractor on 24 Jan 2009 12:08:55 PM
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Stormy
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  12:30:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor

quote:
Originally posted by Stormy

quote:
Originally posted by lilalove

And he must of wrote the book to gain votes someday...


Why did he write the book(s)?


He was asked to after becoming the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.

Other than that, I think we'd have to ask him why he took the publishing offer up.

quote:
The coverage prompted a call to him from Jane Dystel, a gravelly-voiced literary agent. . . . Ms. Dystel suggested Mr. Obama write a book proposal. Then she got him a contract with Poseidon Press, a now-defunct imprint of Simon & Schuster. When he missed his deadline, she got him another contract and a $40,000 advance from Times Books.
Mr. Obama’s original plan was to write a book about race relations. But, sitting down to write, he found his mind "pulled toward rockier shores." So the book became more personal — the record of an interior journey, as he put it in the introduction, "a boy's search for his father, and through that a search for a workable meaning for his life as a black American."
via a google search and this site: rsmccain.blogspot.com/2008/05/authors-against-obama.html


Thanks for the info!

quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor

Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity!




[Stormy]
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Estranged Protractor
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  12:47:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Estranged Protractor's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44

Why would a Three pick E9 as something to emulate? E9, as a concept, is wholly unimpressive - nice guy, laidback, calm, stable - where's the 'golden boy' in that?
Yes, but an effective harmonizer and conciliator between divided groups is impressive, even if the best conciliation possible is only to disagree politely (and, given what little I've read, Obama seemed to have done somewhat better than this).

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, so won't reply to it.

______________________________________
Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity!
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lilalove
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  1:17:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit lilalove's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy

quote:
Originally posted by lilalove

And he must of wrote the book to gain votes someday...


Why did he write the book(s)?



[Stormy]




Because he wanted to be a writer and community organizer when he was younger. Obama wrote a large number of short stories when he was a community organizer. It was a passion of his. They were about crumbling churches, the pain of the people, the sorrows and joys absorbed in a community. To date, none of those have been published, but I'm sure in time they will be. Obama was given a book deal at the age of 28 and chose his inner demons to expel for all the world to see and then spoke of how he found the path to an inner union of two halves that tried to tear him apart.
If he thought that book would help him as a politician 20 years from when he starting writing it.. then he was stupid. That book haunted him non-stop on the campaign trail. It was used against him, time and time again. In the end he over came it.. but it was by no means a help to him as a politician. The Hillary camp did everything they could to paint Obama as an ambitious and arrogant empty suit that could not be trusted to keep his word because he was not willing to fight. They turned Obama's natural compulsions as a peace keeper into type 3 at level 5 detached slick image lightweight who had no personal principles or values of his own other than his own image and adore. Not shockingly it was bill Clinton that had the bright idea to paint Obama in lower health 3 colors.
After Obama won the primaries McCain's team went about playing on that same distorted image of Obama the Clinton machine defined him as.

But then Mccain chose Sarah Palin as his running mate and 100% lost his ability to paint Obama as a lightweight risky choice.

So then the McCain people dug into Obama's past a little deeper.. and what they found became there next attempt at defining Obama. They found what we are seeing in fact. Remember McCain said it was Obama that was really like Bush? Everyone laughed.. but I knew what he was talking about. lol Obama is steadfast in a belief system. Obama was telling the left the truth on the campaign trail.
And that lead to screams of socialism. lol
Which is a gross exaggeration... but closer to the truth than the Clinton machine definition of Obama. Which was just really bill talking about himself.



Obama's other 2 books were clearly to define his platform for the election because he knew he was an unknown. No one cared about those two book.. they were just like every other politicians platform books before an election.


The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8

Edited by - lilalove on 24 Jan 2009 2:00:21 PM
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The Enneagram Institute
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  1:23:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit The Enneagram Institute's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Everyone,

Obama is continuing to reveal himself to be a Three, to those who have eyes to see. Yesterday, there was a meeting at the White House at which he announced to a bi-partisan group, "I won." Here's a report on the meeting from the New York Times:
quote:
'I Won:' President Obama Works to Be Bipartisan But Shows There Are Clear Limits
January 23, 2009 4:19 PM

In an hour-long private meeting with Republican and Democratic Congressional leaders this morning on the economic stimulus package, President Barack Obama stressed the urgency of getting the $825 billion stimulus plan passed quickly for the good of the country, and mentioned the political stakes for both parties.

According to a source present at the meeting, President Obama said, "Look, we are all political animals here, If we don't do this, we may lose seats. I may not be re-elected. But none of that's going to matter if we don't pass this because the economy will be in a crisis and the American people will be hurting."

The meeting was attended by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, Senate Majority Whip dick Durbin, D-Ill., Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn D-SC, and House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Va.

Vice President Joe Biden, National Economic Council director Larry Summers, Office of Management and Budget director Peter Orszag and White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel were also in attendance.

* * * [non-essential details cut here] For full article see: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/01/i-won-president.html

Mr. Obama did voice opinion on some differences on the issue of whether the lowest individual tax rates should be cut from 15 percent to 10 percent and from 10 percent to 5 percent.

As the president, he had told Kyl after the Arizonan raised objections to the notion of a tax credit for people who don't pay income taxes, Obama told Cantor this morning that "on some of these issues we're just going to have ideological differences."

The president added, "I won. So I think on that one, I trump you." (BF added)

After the meeting, Boehner said Republicans relayed their concerns to Obama about the size and spending of the economic stimulus package during the meeting. He specifically mentioned a provision in the bill that would allow 50 states to offer Medicaid family planning service, like contraceptives, with the federal government's 9-to-1 match. Republicans say that whether this is good public policy, it has nothing to do with an economic stimulus.

What is not mentioned in this report is that (as reported by Brian Williams on NBC Nightly News yesterday), the "I won" statement came when the cameras were turned off and the reporters out of the room. When they returned, Obama returned to talking about bi-partisan cooperation, working together, etc.

Of course, Obama did win and has the right to take clear and forceful leadership in the pursuit of policies that he thinks are correct and necessary. What is noteworthy, however, is that he did not say "We won" or "The Democratic Party has won"---but "I won," a very Threeish reminder of who is the winner and who is the loser. Not to mention the fact that he said this when the cameras were off and the reporters out of the room so that he could better control and maintain his image of being a bi-partisan conciliator.

Please do not get us wrong: we are very hopeful about Obama, we supported him and voted for him. But we have very clear insights into his real character structure, and it isn't that of a Nine (as George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan were).

It is worth passing on to everyone the following set of inspiring and interesting pictures of the Inauguration published by the Boston Globe; please also feel free to pass them on to your friends.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/the_inauguration_of_president.html

--
The Enneagram Institute
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dfgray44
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  1:52:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit dfgray44's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute

Everyone,

Obama is continuing to reveal himself to be a Three, to those who have eyes to see. Yesterday, there was a meeting at the White House at which he announced to a bi-partisan group, "I won." Here's a report on the meeting from the New York Times:
quote:
'I Won:' President Obama Works to Be Bipartisan But Shows There Are Clear Limits
January 23, 2009 4:19 PM

In an hour-long private meeting with Republican and Democratic Congressional leaders this morning on the economic stimulus package, President Barack Obama stressed the urgency of getting the $825 billion stimulus plan passed quickly for the good of the country, and mentioned the political stakes for both parties.

According to a source present at the meeting, President Obama said, "Look, we are all political animals here, If we don't do this, we may lose seats. I may not be re-elected. But none of that's going to matter if we don't pass this because the economy will be in a crisis and the American people will be hurting."

The meeting was attended by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, Senate Majority Whip dick Durbin, D-Ill., Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn D-SC, and House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Va.

Vice President Joe Biden, National Economic Council director Larry Summers, Office of Management and Budget director Peter Orszag and White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel were also in attendance.

* * * [non-essential details cut here] For full article see: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/01/i-won-president.html

Mr. Obama did voice opinion on some differences on the issue of whether the lowest individual tax rates should be cut from 15 percent to 10 percent and from 10 percent to 5 percent.

As the president, he had told Kyl after the Arizonan raised objections to the notion of a tax credit for people who don't pay income taxes, Obama told Cantor this morning that "on some of these issues we're just going to have ideological differences."

The president added, "I won. So I think on that one, I trump you." (BF added)

After the meeting, Boehner said Republicans relayed their concerns to Obama about the size and spending of the economic stimulus package during the meeting. He specifically mentioned a provision in the bill that would allow 50 states to offer Medicaid family planning service, like contraceptives, with the federal government's 9-to-1 match. Republicans say that whether this is good public policy, it has nothing to do with an economic stimulus.

What is not mentioned in this report is that (as reported by Brian Williams on NBC Nightly News yesterday), the "I won" statement came when the cameras were turned off and the reporters out of the room. When they returned, Obama returned to talking about bi-partisan cooperation, working together, etc.

Of course, Obama did win and has the right to take clear and forceful leadership in the pursuit of policies that he thinks are correct and necessary. What is noteworthy, however, is that he did not say "We won" or "The Democratic Party has won"---but "I won," a very Threeish reminder of who is the winner and who is the loser. Not to mention the fact that he said this when the cameras were off and the reporters out of the room so that he could better control and maintain his image of being a bi-partisan conciliator.

Please do not get us wrong: we are very hopeful about Obama, we supported him and voted for him. But we have very clear insights into his real character structure, and it isn't that of a Nine (as George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan were).

It is worth passing on to everyone the following set of inspiring and interesting pictures of the Inauguration published by the Boston Globe; please also feel free to pass them on to your friends.
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/the_inauguration_of_president.html

--
The Enneagram Institute



It's clear that EI isn't even listening to reasonable arguments for Obama's typing as a 9. I'd go so far as to say that whoever is writing these passages on R&H's behalf is in a neurotically 'closed' mindset. As alluded to by pork, the intent of this thread seems to have had nothing to with having an equal exchange.

Fact: Their use of the phrase "to those who have eyes to see" proves the mindset I'm describing.





********* / *


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lilalove
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Posted - 24 Jan 2009 :  1:53:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit lilalove's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What you don't mention is that Obama' team had no problem confirming that is exactly what he said. Obama was challenged when the cameras were off.
Obama had no power over that.

And it has been pointed out that Obama said "I won" when he was directly challenged over having authority over his own stimulus package.
It was a simple honest no frills answer. Kind of Bushy in fact.
Despite the fact that he won and has an 84% approval rating Obama is will to give the GOP a lot of concessions on more tax cuts for the middle class and small business because they fit with his own ideology.

Obama is steadfast. At some point you will figure that out.


That's what we have all been saying.


The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8

Edited by - lilalove on 24 Jan 2009 1:57:57 PM
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