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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:16:04 PM
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EI et al.: Check it... bold this, bold that.
Enneagram personality theory is about the big picture.
This business of decontextualizing phrases by boldfacing them in order to argue for a person's overall status as a certain type promotes misleading ideas about the system, namely, that such an approach is likely to lead to valuable results. It's more likely to establish a myopic view of the system and of the person to whom we are applying it.
We all have bits and pieces of all types in us and, further, behavior patterns or instances that remind us of certain types even though these patterns may actually be motivated by other types or by non-type-specific variables.
For instance, I have only the scantest residue, at best, of type Six influence in my personality; observing Sixes of all kinds, I am like the proverbial anthropologist on Mars.
Yet, you could, if you wanted to, generate descriptions of me and boldface everything that seems Six-like, and you would find enough, even though much of it would be either incidental to another type (e.g., Four, Three, or One, perhaps in certain moods or situations) or near-universal, to some extent, to our culture or to people in general. But you could still do it and thus make me seem like a Six to those who don't know the truth about this illusive approach.
This method would work particularly well if you focused your description on situations that tend to bring out quasi-Six patterns - patterns that can be decontextualized and (mis)interpreted as Six-specific, or spun to sound that way - in many people of many types: family affairs, friendships, problem solving.
Likewise, politics tends to bring out quasi-Three patterns. The politician wants something and must do something to get it, but that does not mean that the process is coming from neuroses in the Three space.
Those who really understand the dependence of the theory on the big picture know that the approach in question is a red herring. This post is a reminder to those who know that or have the ability to learn it.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
Edited by - pork on 25 Jan 2009 4:31:44 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:27:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
I guess it's best to agree to disagree on this one. It's been discussed to death at this point. I am not really trying to convince you, just trying to explain why many people think G.W. is a Nine.
But as for your point about profound disintegration - it's not the same thing as psychosis and according to Enneagram theory, as I understand it, disintegration begins to occur at average levels of health. A Nine at level Six for instance, would pick up the energies of a Six at that same level. Some people just seem more prone to it than others. But, as a defense mechanism, it is almost designed to prevent a slip into states which are completely dysfunctional.
As to whether Bush and company have been carrying out the functions of state...well, again, I guess we just have to disagree on that one as well.
By "functions of state", I'm referring to speaking engagements, socializing with heads of state, doing interviews/press conferences, etc. Even a person at Level 6 will get people asking "what's going on with him?" And I'm not talking about policies; I'm talking about the personality emanating from the physicality of the person. Does Bush seem immobilized, catatonic, depressed? In the levels, starting at 6 and going down, the Nine flips back and forth (per level) between catatonia and hysterics.
********* / *
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:27:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dboon
I think the image of Obama hanging out with his SS just around the side exit, cranking out a Newport should be considered in 'levels of health'.. If 6 = dependency.. um.. nevermind. lol.
My point being.. he's 'checking out'.
It's that dang 4 wing, it's heavy, but he's my brother.
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:34:09 PM
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Solasd: Have I got that right?
If you know how much the theory depends on the big picture and how misleading decontextualized snippets can be, you have a good start.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:39:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
But as for your point about profound disintegration - it's not the same thing as psychosis and according to Enneagram theory, as I understand it, disintegration begins to occur at average levels of health.
Then, at what level of health is one "profoundly disintegrated"? |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:40:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:
Originally posted by marie
I guess it's best to agree to disagree on this one. It's been discussed to death at this point. I am not really trying to convince you, just trying to explain why many people think G.W. is a Nine.
But as for your point about profound disintegration - it's not the same thing as psychosis and according to Enneagram theory, as I understand it, disintegration begins to occur at average levels of health. A Nine at level Six for instance, would pick up the energies of a Six at that same level. Some people just seem more prone to it than others. But, as a defense mechanism, it is almost designed to prevent a slip into states which are completely dysfunctional.
As to whether Bush and company have been carrying out the functions of state...well, again, I guess we just have to disagree on that one as well.
By "functions of state", I'm referring to speaking engagements, socializing with heads of state, doing interviews/press conferences, etc. Even a person at Level 6 will get people asking "what's going on with him?" And I'm not talking about policies; I'm talking about the personality emanating from the physicality of the person. Does Bush seem immobilized, catatonic, depressed? In the levels, starting at 6 and going down, the Nine flips back and forth (per level) between catatonia and hysterics.
********* / *
I guess we just have to disagree as to the facts. Or maybe we are working with a different theory. Not sure. But I don't think that people at level Six are catatonic or hysterical. Most of the people I know are at levels Four to Six ("the average levels of health"). Maybe I hang with the wrong crowd. Bush is striking to me insofar as he calls on so much Six energy, but I don't think that a Nine at levels Six even when disintegrated flips back and forth between being catatonic (catatonic!) or hysterical. Not in my experience and not according to the theory as I understand it.
But Bush has often looked strikingly unhealthy to me. I think he has walked a line. I do understand that others haven't seen it that way. I do think lots of people have wondered "what's going on with him" though. I think it has been a pervasive concern in this country for some time now.
Anyway, I don't want to talk about Bush. It's been done to death. We'll just disagree and move on. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:46:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by marie
But as for your point about profound disintegration - it's not the same thing as psychosis and according to Enneagram theory, as I understand it, disintegration begins to occur at average levels of health.
Then, at what level of health is one "profoundly disintegrated"?
Good question.
To me, someone is "profoundly disintegrated" if they draw on a lot of energy from their point of disintegration for an extended period of time. It would be more obvious the more unhealthy someone was though. I see G.W. as having mostly been at level six of type Nine, but barely holding on...so he picks up a lot of energy from type Six at that same level.
And Cheney withdraws and strategizes as Eights do at Five. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:48:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
But Bush has often looked strikingly unhealthy to me. I think he has walked a line. I do understand that others haven't seen it that way. I do think lots of people have wondered "what's going on with him" though. I think it has been a pervasive concern in this country for some time now.
I've never wondered "what's going on with Bush" or ever been concerned about his mental health. This is a concern of people that are left of center politically or politically opposed to Bush.
I believe that you're in a passion about Bush and that your passion prevents you for seeing him objectively. To me that accounts for your mistyping of him. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:53:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
To me, someone is "profoundly disintegrated" if they draw on a lot of energy from their point of disintegration for an extended period of time. It would be more obvious the more unhealthy someone was though. I see G.W. as having mostly been at level six of type Nine, but barely holding on...so he picks up a lot of energy from type Six at that same level.
This is hard to believe. Someone can be profoundly disintegrated at any level? |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:53:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by marie
But Bush has often looked strikingly unhealthy to me. I think he has walked a line. I do understand that others haven't seen it that way. I do think lots of people have wondered "what's going on with him" though. I think it has been a pervasive concern in this country for some time now.
I've never wondered "what's going on with Bush" or ever been concerned about his mental health. This is a concern of people that are left of center politically or politically opposed to Bush.
I believe that you're in a passion about Bush and that your passion prevents you for seeing him objectively. To me that accounts for your mistyping of him.
I dunno....lots of Republicans that I know really started to wonder about him around the time of Katrina...complaining that he was checked out and such. They weren't as vocal about it, but there definitely was some real concern. So, I don't think it's just that I am a Leftie. (No doubt that adds to it though!) |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:58:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Solasd
I'd be interested to know the reason behind your passive-aggressive insult. We disagree, it happens. So what's your beef with that?
I'm familiar with this method - you now distance yourself from the tone you conveyed and play the sober analyst who just happened to have made some very casual observations about Obama. You feign not being able to fathom how I could've possibly perceived your comments the way I did. This makes you the realist, and me the passive-aggressivist who's lashed out at an innocent person who had only the noblest intentions.
I understand though. As someone who would appear to be against war of any kind, it's easier to distance yourself from your own "us versus them" black/white mentality - the very thing that starts wars.
********* / *
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 4:59:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by marie
To me, someone is "profoundly disintegrated" if they draw on a lot of energy from their point of disintegration for an extended period of time. It would be more obvious the more unhealthy someone was though. I see G.W. as having mostly been at level six of type Nine, but barely holding on...so he picks up a lot of energy from type Six at that same level.
This is hard to believe. Someone can be profoundly disintegrated at any level?
Not exactly what I said though.
Disintegration supposedly only happens at levels four and lower, right? So, the more unhealthy one was, the more difficult it would be to reestablish equilibrium. So, "profound disintegration" might well only happen at levels five and lower and be much more pronounced especially at level six because there really is a kind of shock point between six and seven (like between three and four.) The personality would pull out all the stops to prevent a further decline.
So, that's mostly where you would see it.
How do you like that? |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:02:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:
Originally posted by Solasd
I'd be interested to know the reason behind your passive-aggressive insult. We disagree, it happens. So what's your beef with that?
I'm familiar with this method - you now distance yourself from the tone you conveyed and play the sober analyst who just happened to have made some very casual observations about Obama. You feign not being able to fathom how I could've possibly perceived your comments the way I did. This makes you the realist, and me the passive-aggressivist who's lashed out at an innocent person who had only the noblest intentions.
I understand though. As someone who would appear to be against war of any kind, it's easier to distance yourself from your own "us versus them" black/white mentality - the very thing that starts wars.
********* / *
dfgray, With all due respect, how are you a 9? I'm serious. How does one go from "peacemaker" to the 5ish hook? I really want to know.
You make me squirm.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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Edited by - JoL on 25 Jan 2009 5:03:38 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:02:45 PM
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Obama, our president, says, it's time to put away childish things.
It'll be hard for some of us I know.
Ron
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:09:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
dfgray, With all due respect, how are you a 9? I'm serious. How does one go from "peacemaker" to the 5ish hook? I really want to know.
You make me squirm.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
Adventures in modern psychology.
********* / *
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:14:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Disintegration supposedly only happens at levels four and lower, right? So, the more unhealthy one was, the more difficult it would be to reestablish equilibrium. So, "profound disintegration" might well only happen at levels five and lower and be much more pronounced especially at level six because there really is a kind of shock point between six and seven (like between three and four.) The personality would pull out all the stops to prevent a further decline.
So, that's mostly where you would see it.
How do you like that?
I think I'm fated for a more conventional psychology. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:22:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Adventures in modern psychology.
I knew it! The Adventurous type, 7w8, istp
Just like Jung. |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:24:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:
Originally posted by JoL
dfgray, With all due respect, how are you a 9? I'm serious. How does one go from "peacemaker" to the 5ish hook? I really want to know.
You make me squirm.
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
Adventures in modern psychology.
********* / *
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 5:51:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I think I'm fated for a more conventional psychology.
I'm thinking it would be good for you to step outside your comfort zone. :)
Btw, I think Caroline Kennedy is a member of your tribe. I think she would have been a good Senator also. She just couldn't handle the invasion of her privacy and the disrespect. |
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Crooner
Member
USA
3667 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 6:41:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Obama, our president, says, it's time to put away childish things.
Ones, Threes, and Eights are "age-progressed."
Ones under stress will take the stance that they're
"the only adult in the room."
Crooner |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 7:04:20 PM
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Crooner, what about if I'm stressed , being a 4 at 1,
would I be concerned with people acting like children?
Ron
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 7:33:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by marie
But Bush has often looked strikingly unhealthy to me. I think he has walked a line. I do understand that others haven't seen it that way. I do think lots of people have wondered "what's going on with him" though. I think it has been a pervasive concern in this country for some time now.
I've never wondered "what's going on with Bush" or ever been concerned about his mental health. This is a concern of people that are left of center politically or politically opposed to Bush.
I believe that you're in a passion about Bush and that your passion prevents you for seeing him objectively. To me that accounts for your mistyping of him.
For the last 2 years 70% of America have had concern over Bush. So much so that he has left office with record low approval ratings and has tanked the GOP as low as they have been in decades.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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Crooner
Member
USA
3667 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 7:55:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Crooner, what about if I'm stressed , being a 4 at 1,
would I be concerned with people acting like children?
Dunno, Ron...
But I have a Four friend whom I regard as a confidante.
Maybe it's because she feels safe with me that she goes
to her integration point and sometimes comes across like
a schoolmarm.
Crooner
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 7:58:29 PM
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Crooner, you're a lucky man .
Ron
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2009 : 8:23:42 PM
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quote:
Although I despise war and wish there were never a need for them, I do understand that due to human nature, the inevitability of some wars. My point in bringing up the bombing of Pakistan, has precisely to do with what Obama said during his campaign. That he would take unilateral action against Pakistan IF they refused to go after Bin Laden or Al Qaeda operatives. His promise was the use of diplomacy, first. To sit down with those in countries that harbor terrorists to discuss the best strategies on how to bring this "War on Terror" to a close. This is what he said, promised.
Those are all good points.
Obama said:
"If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said.
President Pervez Musharraf Pakistani announced his resignation to avoid impeachment charges. The chairman of Pakistan's Senate, Mohammedmian Soomro, took over as acting president. Mohammedmian Soomro was sworn in as acting president not long ago.
What is Mohammedmian Soomro saying about the strike on al Qaeda and Taliban leaders?
The most said about the matter I could find was this:
"most observers speculate it has an unwritten agreement allowing them to take place, noting it would be highly damaging to be seen as colluding with Washington in attacks on its people."
And when asked about it all:
Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, a spokesman for the Pakistani army, declined to comment on the strike, referring calls to the Pakistani Foreign Ministry. A spokesman for the Foreign Ministry also declined to comment.
and then on our end:
“As you know, I am not going to comment on those matters,” Gibbs said.
So, it would seem that Obama was not doing something that Pakistani leaders and army are in conflict with.
Hope that helps.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012301220_pf.html
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
