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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 12:18:49 PM
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"Early observations of President-Elect Obama, admittedly still
unproven by action, appear to display the basics of those skill
sets. If they are highlighted and given prominence, there is reason
to believe their value will seep down into the culture of daily life and support a more constructive way of managing conflict. Specifically, much as an effective mediator does, intuitively or intentionally, Obama appears to think in a systemic frame, as opposed to a linear frame, and he operates from a more flexible protean
perspective, un-tethered to any particular ideology or orthodoxy.
The systemic perspective allows him to present issues
realistically and to establish the necessary awareness of the interconnection between such concerns as the management of energy resources with global warming, without losing sight of economic
ramifications, or the corresponding need for education and health
care reform. Likewise, the design of his campaign incorporated a
sophisticated understanding of the principles of complexity and in
particular, the concept of ‘self-organizing’ systems, all of which
was super charged by the ‘state of art’ use internet technology and
innovation to create a synergy that spread virally nationwide.
Obama’s personal history, being from a multi-racial and cultural
background, offers him up as the embodiment of the ‘protean self’
suggested by Robert J. Lifton in his book of that name. (The
Protean Self: Human Resilience in an Age of
Fragmentation,1993). He reflects the diverse background and
experience of the soon to be majority of the U.S. population. He
appears to have applied his innate sensibilities toward becoming
a protean leader, as Peter Adler terms it. (“Protean Negotiation:
Rejecting Orthodoxy and Shifting Shapes,” 2006.) Obama is
seemingly at once a sharp strategist and competitive warrior, a
pragmatic and technically proficient problem solver, a headman
able to hear and coalesce a ‘team of rivals’, and, finally, a shaman,
eloquently setting a moral vision that calls upon our best instincts
instead of our worst fears.
Obama’s leadership style offers a model for the highest quality of
negotiation and mediation practice and invites emulation and
application in other areas. Obama demonstrates a clear
recognition that ultimately, his substantive ideas are only as good
as the process used to bring them about and that requires
negotiation skills, consensus building and inclusive problem
solving strategies. His example of pursuing thoughtful agreement
is the best advertisement available for mediation and conflict
management services in any and every context.
[snip]
"Too often, mediation is about us, the mediator - our values, our understandings. We present as experts who know better than the person in front of us. We are committed to people making their
own decisions once we agree with those decisions. For mediation
to be about the parties, as mediator you must become egoless,
you must know yourself, how you negotiate, how you yourself
engage in conflict."
http://www.themii.ie/documents/Robert_Benjamin_Keynote_Address.pdf |
Edited by - ptypes on 30 Jan 2009 12:31:39 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 12:44:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
"Early observations of President-Elect Obama, admittedly still
unproven by action, appear to display the basics of those skill
sets. If they are highlighted and given prominence, there is reason
to believe their value will seep down into the culture of daily life and support a more constructive way of managing conflict. Specifically, much as an effective mediator does, intuitively or intentionally, Obama appears to think in a systemic frame, as opposed to a linear frame, and he operates from a more flexible protean
perspective, un-tethered to any particular ideology or orthodoxy.
The systemic perspective allows him to present issues
realistically and to establish the necessary awareness of the interconnection between such concerns as the management of energy resources with global warming, without losing sight of economic
ramifications, or the corresponding need for education and health
care reform. Likewise, the design of his campaign incorporated a
sophisticated understanding of the principles of complexity and in
particular, the concept of ‘self-organizing’ systems, all of which
was super charged by the ‘state of art’ use internet technology and
innovation to create a synergy that spread virally nationwide.
Obama’s personal history, being from a multi-racial and cultural
background, offers him up as the embodiment of the ‘protean self’
suggested by Robert J. Lifton in his book of that name. (The
Protean Self: Human Resilience in an Age of
Fragmentation,1993). He reflects the diverse background and
experience of the soon to be majority of the U.S. population. He
appears to have applied his innate sensibilities toward becoming
a protean leader, as Peter Adler terms it. (“Protean Negotiation:
Rejecting Orthodoxy and Shifting Shapes,” 2006.) Obama is
seemingly at once a sharp strategist and competitive warrior, a
pragmatic and technically proficient problem solver, a headman
able to hear and coalesce a ‘team of rivals’, and, finally, a shaman,
eloquently setting a moral vision that calls upon our best instincts
instead of our worst fears.
Obama’s leadership style offers a model for the highest quality of
negotiation and mediation practice and invites emulation and
application in other areas. Obama demonstrates a clear
recognition that ultimately, his substantive ideas are only as good
as the process used to bring them about and that requires
negotiation skills, consensus building and inclusive problem
solving strategies. His example of pursuing thoughtful agreement
is the best advertisement available for mediation and conflict
management services in any and every context.
[snip]
"Too often, mediation is about us, the mediator - our values, our understandings. We present as experts who know better than the person in front of us. We are committed to people making their
own decisions once we agree with those decisions. For mediation
to be about the parties, as mediator you must become egoless,
you must know yourself, how you negotiate, how you yourself
engage in conflict."
http://www.themii.ie/documents/Robert_Benjamin_Keynote_Address.pdf
Bingo.
********* / *
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Odyssey
Member
2297 Posts |
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Habanero
Member
1197 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 4:05:48 PM
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| I'm reading Dreams from My Father. I'm seeing some Nine-ish stuff...also seeing the 3w4 a bit clearer now. |
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The Enneagram Institute
Administrator
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 2:52:22 PM
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Everyone,
The interesting quote posted by ptypes (presumably in support of Obama as a Nine) seems to us to instead offer clear language to express one of the main reasons why he is a Three:
quote:
Obama’s personal history, being from a multi-racial and cultural background, offers him up as the embodiment of the ‘protean self’ suggested by Robert J. Lifton in his book of that name. (The Protean Self: Human Resilience in an Age of Fragmentation,1993). He reflects the diverse background and experience of the soon to be majority of the U.S. population. He appears to have applied his innate sensibilities toward becoming a protean leader, as Peter Adler terms it. (“Protean Negotiation: Rejecting Orthodoxy and Shifting Shapes,” 2006.) Obama is seemingly at once a sharp strategist and competitive warrior, a pragmatic and technically proficient problem solver, a headman able to hear and coalesce a ‘team of rivals’, and, finally, a shaman, eloquently setting a moral vision that calls upon our best instincts instead of our worst fears.
Absolutely no Nine could be considered a "protean self" who leads by "shifting shapes." Nor are even healthy Nines "sharp strategists and competitive warriors," or "pragmatic and technically proficient problem solvers," as well as a being a "headman" and a "shaman...."
The picture of such a multi-faceted personality simply does not fit that of the Nine archetype. It does, however, fit that of a healthy to average Three, and is one of the central qualities of the Three's adaptable identity--a flexibility and ability to change himself and his positions based on reality instead of ideology, to bring others on board with tasks by both being persuasive but also by giving value and relevance to the things he is interested in achieving. These kinds of qualities happen when the Three is healthy; a "shape shifting," chameleonic Three who is simply changing images to get something from others from moment to moment is a Three at Level 5. However, we still think that Obama is a pretty healthy Three, and could well be characterized as a "protean self." We therefore see the above quotation as adding another reason to think that Obama is, indeed, a type Three.
This raises the question that we would like to pose the participants of this thread: we seem to have come to a basic agreement that Obama is either a 9w1 or a 3w4, SO. Positions and reasons have been offered all around for both readings of him. So the question is: what will be the necessary and sufficient markers which will produce a decisive typing? What will either Obama or someone else have to say or do to snap his type clearly into focus with a high degree of confidence for more people? Or, to put this another way, what kind of trait, statement, or action of Obama's would be enough for us to have more clarity and wide-spread agreement about his type?
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The Enneagram Institute |
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EIDB Moderators
Moderator
576 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 3:00:03 PM
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Oneness, we'd like to keep this thread focused on 2008 Presidential Candidates.
We've created a topic to explore your question about GW Bush's typing.
EIDB Moderators |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 4:44:51 PM
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http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2008/06/the-democrats-p.html
"Yesterday, the morning after Obama nailed down the Democratic nomination, I almost choked on Michael Powell's formulation of a candidate profile on the front page of the NYT. I encourage you to read it, if only to see what Obama is up against.
"For The BAG's purposes, I want to concentrate on how the story was adapted to the stealthy-named "Who Is Barack Obama?" slide show. (How reasonable is it, I wonder, that this far into the election cycle Obama would still be framed as such an unknown?) As you'll see below, Powell's often denigrating, at times coded descriptions reinforce all manner of stereotypes, some character-based, some fear-raising, some racist, others classist and still others anti-intellectual.
"Here's the caption accompanying the lead off image above:
quote:
On the cusp of becoming the first African-American to capture a major party nomination, Senator Barack Obama remains a protean political figure, inspiring devotion in supporters who see him as a transformative leader even as he remains inscrutable to critics.
"Beware that protean inscrutability! Translation (with the guidance of Webster's): Beyond his devoted followers, Obama remains unknowable through his ability to intentionally alter his presentation and character."
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Edited by - ptypes on 01 Feb 2009 4:49:43 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 4:57:34 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/us/politics/04obama.html
Barack Obama: Calm in the Swirl of History by Michael Powell
"On the cusp of becoming the first African-American to capture a major party nomination, Mr. Obama remains a protean political figure, inspiring devotion in supporters who see him as a transformative leader even as he remains inscrutable to critics.
"He has the gift of making people see themselves in him and offers an enigmatic smile when asked about his multiracial appeal.
"“I am like a Rorschach test,” he said in an interview with The New York Times. “Even if people find me disappointing ultimately, they might gain something.”"
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Edited by - ptypes on 01 Feb 2009 5:00:35 PM |
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Odyssey
Member
2297 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 5:00:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Absolutely no Nine could be considered a "protean self" who leads by "shifting shapes." Nor are even healthy Nines "sharp strategists and competitive warriors," or "pragmatic and technically proficient problem solvers," as well as a being a "headman" and a "shaman...."
--
The Enneagram Institute
No 9 ?
Since pre-historic times millions of years ago ?
Not even one ?
Something about life being an adventure. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 5:32:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Delph
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Absolutely no Nine could be considered a "protean self" who leads by "shifting shapes." Nor are even healthy Nines "sharp strategists and competitive warriors," or "pragmatic and technically proficient problem solvers," as well as a being a "headman" and a "shaman...."
--
The Enneagram Institute
No 9 ?
Since pre-historic times millions of years ago ?
Not even one ?
"Great leaders, Abraham Lincoln, for example, have always been protean. It is not a new notion, even if relatively rare in occurrence. We have, however, tended to believe such leadership happens by chance and can not be obtained by design."
http://www.mediate.com/articles/benjaminleaders.cfm |
Edited by - ptypes on 01 Feb 2009 5:33:50 PM |
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
2670 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 5:58:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
what will be the necessary and sufficient markers which will produce a decisive typing? What will either Obama or someone else have to say or do to snap his type clearly into focus with a high degree of confidence for more people? Or, to put this another way, what kind of trait, statement, or action of Obama's would be enough for us to have more clarity and wide-spread agreement about his type?
I would have to see him and possibly interact with him in person. Nothing you can do about that, sorry.
______________________________________
Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity! |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
2670 Posts |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 6:57:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Absolutely no Nine could be considered a "protean self" who leads by "shifting shapes."
How about R&H's title for E9 at Level 4 - "the Accommodating Role Player"?
Nor are even healthy Nines "sharp strategists and competitive warriors,"
So, was Eisenhower not a "sharp strategist and competitive warrior"? The Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe? Hmmm....I can't remember if the U.S. won that war or not....*scratching head*...
or "pragmatic and technically proficient problem solvers,"
Aren't these things that have been said of Lincoln?
as well as a being a "headman"
If Nines have been presidents of the US, then they've certainly been 'headmen'.
and a "shaman...."
'Shaman' is more 9-ish than 3-ish. There's nothing in the E3 descriptions (by any author) akin to the E9's association with mysticism/spiritualism.
--
The Enneagram Institute
********* / *
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 8:50:00 PM
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dfgray44: So, was Eisenhower not a "sharp strategist and competitive warrior"?
I don't know, but he was one of only nine five-star generals in the history of the U.S. military. Knowing regrettably little about both him and military ranks, I won't presume to declare whether that honor implies any strategic aptitude or competitiveness on his part. 
dfgray44: Aren't these things that have been said of Lincoln?
He is generally considered to have handled the domestic problems of the time skillfully. And if you know what those problems were, you know that's no minor compliment.
dfgray44: If Nines have been presidents of the US, then they've certainly been 'headmen'.
Does that mean Reagan was a headman? Can one be considered one of the three or four greatest U.S. presidents of the century and still not qualify as a headman? Let's not get sidetracked into the question of whether he was that great; I'm not sure it's relevant to the status of headmanship. Perhaps we should wait for a definition of "headman" first.
The Enneagram Institute: what will be the necessary and sufficient markers which will produce a decisive typing?
You're not likely to get that far with a textual description, but the most convincing one will unambiguously indicate the neurotic motivations of a type. That's not easy to do, especially when your audience includes those who have been debating against the cardinal sins of typing for years. For instance:
(i) The tailgater-must-be-a-Two fallacy.
Broadly defined behavioral patterns are almost never exclusive to or preclusive of any one type or triadic group. Many Threes are ambitious, for reasons that we associate with Three, but so are many non-Threes, including Nines (cf. Lincoln, Eisenhower, and Reagan, as discussed above), for other reasons, whether type related or not. The same goes for other broadly defined behavioral patterns.
(ii) The Einstein-overqualified-for-Nine-camp fallacy.
Ability in itself is barely relevant to what Enneagram type someone is. That's my impression. But even if you would insist that a healthy Three must be socially graceful and able to work a crowd (does this include Threes with neurological disorders that make such knacks virtually impossible?), there is no reason to insist that a healhy Nine cannot also be so.
(iii) The confabulatory-journalist-as-false-authority fallacy.
Blather from the lionizing media is even less relevant.
Work on the last one first. It's especially irksome. 
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
Edited by - pork on 02 Feb 2009 01:30:46 AM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 12:35:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
what will be the necessary and sufficient markers which will produce a decisive typing? What will either Obama or someone else have to say or do to snap his type clearly into focus with a high degree of confidence for more people? Or, to put this another way, what kind of trait, statement, or action of Obama's would be enough for us to have more clarity and wide-spread agreement about his type?
I would have to see him and possibly interact with him in person. Nothing you can do about that, sorry.
______________________________________
Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity!
When Obama came to the austin town hall meeting I did. I was able to get back stage and talk to him for 10 mins or so. My kids were with me. My little 9w8 got red snow cone juice on him. Obama was very relaxed about it. Told me not to worry. Said he had kids and he has never been uptight about his clothes. He was very natural with children. Looked them in the eye when they spoke to him. Treated the children with the same respect as he would an adult. He was exactly the same as he was from the video of 15 years ago. He is steadfast in his energy and personality. He gave some answers people did not want to hear but they were the truth. I thought he might be intp when I met him in person because he is a deep thinker by nature.. but I have changed to maybe infj... much like his mother.
He was not slick and smooth. He was calm, relaxed and steady. On the inside he seems to have a deep nuanced thought process that is not ego bound but has an anchor based on just principals and an easy flowing grace that is also self aware.
Both are part of his nature and remain in a natural balance. They are not a mask.. but an entwined dance of the soul.
Make of that what you will.
Obama is steady and very unchanging, his nature is the soul dance we see today. Two strengths merged that make up his essence. Who he was 25 years ago is who he is today. On stage his lights turn on. So it is for all good oratorers. That does not underline type what so ever.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 02 Feb 2009 4:51:34 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 2:37:08 PM
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I'm starting to think that there is a psychological connection between strong ambition and being abandoned by one's father, either literally or figuratively. It has a lot to do, I think, with establishing one's identity.
Here's something about Ken Wilbur on this:
From Bald Ambition: A Critique of Ken Wilber's Theory of Everything
http://www.integralworld.net/meyerhoff-ba-10.html
"The loss of his wife in 1988 was probably the most horrible of his life, but the pattern of loss was established much earlier. In Tony Schwartz's What Really Matters?,[7] there are only a few pages about Wilber's background, but what is striking about them is the central theme of loss in his life. The family's losses began even before Wilber was born. His father suffered the horrible tragedy of losing both his father and mother when he was young. Wilber states that "My father was abandoned by his own father when he was four, his mother died of tuberculosis soon after." Yet even with these staggering losses his father "never blamed any of life's difficulties on his father's leaving him or his mother's death." A noble stoicism, but a means of coping that suggests these tremendous losses were not worked through and so acted out. This is partially confirmed when we learn from Wilber that "My father wasn't around a lot when I was growing up."[9] A repetition of the father's loss of his father passed down to the son.
"Wilber's mother had her own issues with loss which she transmitted to her son. With her husband absent a lot, Wilber "became not only my mother's darling kid but almost a substitute husband."[10] "When it came time to really let me go, that became a real problem."[11] He "felt overwhelmed. I needed to establish my own space - without feeling that I'd be abandoned [i.e. suffer loss]."[12]" |
Edited by - ptypes on 02 Feb 2009 2:41:32 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 2:43:59 PM
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quote:
I'm starting to think that there is a psychological connection between strong ambition and being abandoned by one's father, either literally or figuratively.
R & H point to type 1 for that connection.
"Ones develop as they do because as children they were disconnected with their "protective figure," that adult in their early childhood."
"These children may have become disconnected from the protective figure for any number of reasons. The protective figure may have been absent from the family, or been abusive, or have treated the child unfairly."
"This creates in Ones a relentless superego mechanism whose constant message is "You are not acceptable as you are; you must be better, always better."
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 2:53:27 PM
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Addendum to the tailgater-must-be-a-Two entry: "you're too tall to be Chinese."
Population averages should not be ridigly attributed to individuals. For instance, you would know better than to declare that any random woman must have better verbal skills and poorer number skills than I do or to deem this fact of population averages sufficient to trump any evidence to the contrary with respect to us as individuals.
But you show a mentality akin to that when the traits to be excluded per your "absolutely no Nine" statements are so broadly and vaguely defined that they cannot be exclusive to or preclusive of any one type or triadic group.
For a given trait, each type's range of expression levels follows a distribution curve. Even if the "vocational ambition" average for Nine is significantly lower than that for Three, the two curves may still show generous overlap and range. The curve for Nine may even be wide enough to extend to the levels represented by the achievements of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Reagan, and Big Bird O. himself.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
Edited by - pork on 02 Feb 2009 3:03:27 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 2:59:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
quote:
I'm starting to think that there is a psychological connection between strong ambition and being abandoned by one's father, either literally or figuratively.
R & H point to type 1 for that connection.
"Ones develop as they do because as children they were disconnected with their "protective figure," that adult in their early childhood."
"These children may have become disconnected from the protective figure for any number of reasons. The protective figure may have been absent from the family, or been abusive, or have treated the child unfairly."
"This creates in Ones a relentless superego mechanism whose constant message is "You are not acceptable as you are; you must be better, always better."
Unfortunately, that doesn't make for a clear distinction, because the 3w4 is also perfectionistic and subject to analogous superego demands. That's the basis of "compensatory narcissism." |
Edited by - ptypes on 02 Feb 2009 3:02:13 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 3:00:44 PM
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Pork, all the "never" black and white thinking comes from a 1 at level 5. It's very limited. But she is trying. My heart goes out to her. We are not an easy group because of our elements go so far beyond "right and wrong" "always and never".
Abraham Lincoln's rivals spoke of his self-serving ambition coupled with his unadulterated egotism. eye of the beholder.. so often.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 02 Feb 2009 3:13:10 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 3:04:38 PM
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quote:
Unfortunately, that doesn't make for a clear distinction, because the 3w4 is also perfectionistic and subject to those same superego demands. That's the basis of "compensatory narcissism."
Indeed. which is one of the reason's Obama is so hard to peg.
He could be a 3w4. The problem is that he has so much 9 in his mix.
If Obama is a 3w4, R & H might want to retool their high health description and add in some missing piece reflections in the mix.
Also toss in that high health 3w4's can have some core humanitarian values and principals that can help them reach the top levels of health.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 02 Feb 2009 3:08:50 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 3:05:39 PM
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| I think that Obama's strong ambition was psychologically induced after birth, and is not typologically significant. For everyone knows that "we are born with our type." |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 3:09:33 PM
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You might be right.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 4:41:56 PM
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quote:
Absolutely no Nine could be considered a "protean self" who leads by "shifting shapes."
Ah, but R & H teach that we have all types within us. And when healthy we can have moments where we transcend fixation and have access to all.
I believe R & H have made note that there are times when Obama seems to transcend self. Everything and All yet with out ego grounding.
The problem with your arguments is that they instantly undermine your intellect with their absolutes and in return fail to impress ours.
Obama could be a 3w4 but "never and always" thinking only proves your own limitations and says far more about you than him.
We are all working through Obama's type. I'm not out to prove myself right or wrong. I'm searching for truth and exploring streams and connections. We may all find ourselves in the same place at some point.. but I'm not going to reach the destination through your own limitations. It is not a failure to see. It's the ability to be able to see the grey beyond the black and white. To you it might be clear as day.. and that is where I find myself doubting your vision.
Myself and others will keep peeling layers and in doing so may discover connections inside the enneagram yet unexplored. What we are doing is adding to the understanding of the system instead of boxing it into over simplified rubbish based on "always and never" thinking.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 02 Feb 2009 6:08:32 PM |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
