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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 12:57:55 AM
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The Enneagram Institute: It would, indeed, be the most rare of Nines who would be characterized as having a "supremely self-assured nature...."
That depends on who's doing the characterizing. If the beholder is a journalist, we can safely guess that the likelihood jumps from "most rare" to "somewhat less rare." And if his eye is on the current president....
It also depends on what the beholder means by self-assurance and whether he has read the behavior accurately. What he calls self-assurance may be something more like a thick skin, a tendency toward simplistic or magical thinking in an optimistic vein, or, on a more positive note, self-possession. And he may be referring exclusively to an attitude toward an isolated problem rather than to a personality on the whole.
The Enneagram Institue: what kind of evidence or actions will it take for people to see that Obama is a Three and not a Nine?
I will see it through my own eyes.
So far, we see two different people. Your version, I think, is tainted by journalistic hyperbole and even mythologizing.
It's also becoming more evident that we see the types differently. Your versions of Three and (especially) Nine, I think, are unrealistically restricted and fail to appreciate the complex varieties of ways in which motivation may manifest as behavior.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
Edited by - pork on 04 Feb 2009 10:33:19 AM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 01:09:38 AM
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Edited by - .ron4 on 04 Feb 2009 01:17:51 AM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 01:42:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
“If Obama has a flaw, and this is something that’s tripped him up a couple of times in life, he really thinks he can win everybody over,” she said. “He has a lot of confidence that he can meet somebody from a totally different culture, who he agrees on nothing about, and still form a connection to that person.”
That paragraph is just as easily interpreted as 9-esque naivete. You're getting stuck on the word 'confidence'.
Downplaying the potential for conflict and avoiding certain realities are two things that can easily be interpreted as confidence.
And if you think GW Bush is a 9, you might consider his apparent confidence....
********* / *
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 10:02:15 AM
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Barack Obama’s confidence and cool-headedness are partly why he was elected president of the United States. But if that confidence curdles into arrogance, it will be his downfall.
Yesterday Obama owned up to his mistakes. No attempt to cover up. He understood his vetting was not good enough and he made some poor choices. He took it all. Simple, honest, straight-up.
I have yet to know a 3 that has done that.
3's try to cover-up by nature. It is a massive soul fight to get them to own-up to failures. It scares them to death.
Not Obama. Not even a little bit. The only person I have ever personally known who could own up to his mistakes with that kind of calm steady honesty was a 9w1.
You say it is a rare 9 who is seen as self confident? I say it is a rarer 3 who is willing to take full blame when others were willing to take the blame for them. It goes against 3's nature. Taking blame is their nightmare.
Full ownership of the mistake has not helped Obama's image.
People are scorning him for it, even.
But you know what, I bet he knows what he did was bigger than a fear of giving the republicans with napoleon complexes a weapon to flog him with.
Obama is big.. in a very humble way.
"Humble people are low on arrogance, but high on true confidence. When you are comfortable in your own shoes, it's easier to compromise, stay strong when you need to, and there's absolutely no reason to disrespect or degrade others."
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 04 Feb 2009 11:07:20 AM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 11:06:31 AM
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Just the opposite, 9s wont admit they are wrong.
Ron
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 11:10:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Just the opposite, 9s wont admit they are wrong.
Ron
That is so not true, ron.
higher average heath 9's and healthy 9's admit they they are wrong with more grace than any other type.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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Habanero
Member
1197 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 11:58:44 AM
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| Nines are not overly invested in presenting themselves as perfect. Nines want to be loved and accepted unconditionally, warts and all. This is why Nines have a vibe of acceptance around them. They tend to accept others in the way they want to be accepted. (At least the healthier ones do). They may have problems admitting mistakes to themselves (and who doesn’t really?) but once they’ve made a mistake, they don’t have a big ego investment in covering them up. It’s almost to say, “I don’t want you to accept me for something that I am not.” Nine are guileless in that respect. And quite opposite of Threes....who operate out of “if you knew the real (imperfect) me, you’d find me lacking.” |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 12:42:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
“He has a lot of confidence that he can meet somebody from a totally different culture, who he agrees on nothing about, and still form a connection to that person.”[/b]
Ronald Reagan was like that. One of the best friends he made in Washington was Tip O'Neil, the leader of the opposition. They were great friends. Chris Matthews tells the story of when Reagan was in the hospital after the assassination attempt, and was in a bad way, and Tip O'Neil was seen kneeling at his bedside holding Reagan's hand and reciting with him the 23rd Psalm.
Then there was Gorbachev. Reagan completely won him over. Who would have thought. |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Feb 2009 1:39:53 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 12:58:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
It's also becoming more evident that we see the types differently. Your versions of Three and (especially) Nine, I think, are unrealistically restricted and fail to appreciate the complex varieties of ways in which motivation may manifest as behavior.
I'm starting to think that the Institute doesn't think well enough of Nines.  |
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 1:21:53 PM
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dfgray44: if you think GW Bush is a 9, you might consider his apparent confidence....
You can't get much cockier than that, can you?
Wasn't that among the most irksome aspects of Dubya's manner - his spoiled-brat-like brashness?
(And for the record, no, I don't think Dubya is a Nine, but I'd like to keep as many peripheral cans of worms closed for this discussion as I can. I have very little free time, and this thread is taking more than its share. I mention Dubya only to comment on the noted inconsistency in the EI's interpretations.)
ptypes: I'm starting to think that the Institute doesn't think well enough of Nines.
It's too easy to underestimate what they can do when they get going - the flip side of inertia.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 1:28:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
dfgray44: if you think GW Bush is a 9, you might consider his apparent confidence....
You can't get much cockier than that, can you?
Wasn't that among the most irksome aspects of Dubya's manner - his spoiled-brat-like brashness?
(And for the record, no, I don't think Dubya is a Nine, but I'd like to keep as many peripheral cans of worms closed for this discussion as I can. I have very little free time, and this thread is taking more than its share. I mention Dubya only to comment on the noted inconsistency in the EI's interpretations.)
I've always thought that that was an example of six going to three.
Seems to me a manifestation of narcissism compensating for feelings of inferiority and low self-worth. |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Feb 2009 1:29:05 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 1:36:54 PM
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I noticed that the Forum cited met on January 15.
I haven't seen evidence of a "supremely self-confident" attitude in Obama since he's taken office, or reports of the same.
Actually, I didn't see a "supremely self-confident" attitude during the transition period, either. Seemed mostly down-to-earth and serious.
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 1:43:24 PM
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I'm one who thinks that George Washington's type is 9w8.
The following is Thomas Jefferson's famous portrait of Washington:
Monticello, January 2, 1814
...I think I knew General Washington intimately and thoroughly; and were I called on to delineate his character, it should be in terms like these.
His mind was great and powerful, without being of the very first order; his penetration strong, though not so acute as that of a Newton, Bacon, or Locke; and as far as he saw, no judgment was ever sounder. It was slow in operation, being little aided by invention or imagination, but sure in conclusion. Hence the common remark of his officers, of the advantage he derived from councils of war, where hearing all suggestions, he selected whatever was best; and certainly no general ever planned his battle more judiciously. But if deranged during the course of the action, if any member of his plan was dislocated by sudden circumstances, he was slow in readjustment. The consequence was that he often failed in the field, and rarely against an enemy in station, as at Boston and York. He was incapable of fear, meeting personal dangers with the calmest unconcern. Perhaps the strongest feature in his character was prudence, never acting until every circumstance, every consideration, was maturely weighed; refraining if he saw a doubt, but, when once decided, going through with his purpose, whatever obstacles opposed. His integrity was most pure, his justice the most inflexible I have ever known, no motives of interest or consanguinity, of friendship or hatred being able to bias his decision. He was, indeed, in every sense of the words, a wise, a good, and a great man. His temper was naturally high toned; but reflection and resolution had obtained a firm and habitual ascendency over it. If ever, however, it broke its bonds, he was most tremendous in his wrath. In his expenses he was honorable, but exact; liberal in contributions to whatever promised utility; but frowning and unyielding on all visionary projects and all unworthy calls on his charity. His heart was not warm in its affections; but he exactly calculated every man's value, and gave him a solid esteem proportioned to it. His person, you know, was fine, his stature exactly what one would wish, his deportment easy, erect and noble; the best horseman of his age, and the most graceful figure that could be seen on horseback. Although in the circle of his friends, where he might be unreserved with safety, he took a free share in conversation, his colloquial talents were not above mediocrity, possessing neither copiousness of ideas, nor fluency of words. In public, when called on for a sudden opinion, he was unready, short and embarrassed. Yet he wrote readily, rather diffusely, in an easy and correct style. This he had acquired by conversation with the world, for his education was merely reading, writing, and common arithmetic, to which he added surveying at a later day. His time was employed in action chiefly, reading little, and that only in agriculture and English history. His correspondence became necessarily extensive, and, with journalizing his agricultural proceedings, occupied most of his leisure hours within doors. On the whole, his character was, in its mass, perfect, in nothing bad, in few points indifferent; and it may truly be said, that never did nature and fortune combine more perfectly to make a man great, and to place him in the same constellation with whatever worthies have merited from man an everlasting remembrance. For his was the singular destiny and merit, of leading the armies of his country successfully through an arduous war, for the establishment of its independence; of conducting its councils through the birth of a government, new in its forms and principles, until it had settled down into a quiet and orderly train; and of scrupulously obeying the laws through the whole of his career, civil and military, of which the history of the world furnishes no other example. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:12:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
In the past few pages or so I have noticed a change
in the tone of the posts on this thread. It's as though
something is influencing or affecting posters attitudes
in themselves, a kind of awakening of hope and ambition
to make and see things that are possible if we put our
body and mind to work to achieve mutual goals.
I thought of this when I read this paragraph.
R&H, type 3, level 3,
"Because they possess outstanding qualities, healthy 3s are
also able to motivate other people to develop themselves.
Others see in 3s what they could be like if they made the
effort to develop their potential as 3s have. Moreover,
healthy 3s are willing to help others attain the qualities
that they embody. If they are terrific dancers, they will
teach you how to dance; if they are bodybuilders, they will
work out with you at they gem; if they have made a killing
on the stock market, they will help you get into the market
too."
I think President Obama is having his healthy type 3 effectiveness.
Ron
Stop trying to annoy us, Ron. |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:23:29 PM
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their thinking is 9s live through the other
so they can never really be wrong and can't
admit to being wrong if that's what you wanted.
also 9s are past oriented not future oriented
and are nostalgic about the past, unlike 5s.
9s find comfort in the past so says 9s that
think they are 5s.
9s are upset about the future because it is unknown.
Respectability is more important to 9s than 3s.
9s are conservatives unlike 3s who are into evolving .
Ron
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:23:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Habanero
Nines are not overly invested in presenting themselves as perfect. Nines want to be loved and accepted unconditionally, warts and all. This is why Nines have a vibe of acceptance around them. They tend to accept others in the way they want to be accepted. (At least the healthier ones do). They may have problems admitting mistakes to themselves (and who doesn’t really?) but once they’ve made a mistake, they don’t have a big ego investment in covering them up. It’s almost to say, “I don’t want you to accept me for something that I am not.” Nine are guileless in that respect. And quite opposite of Threes....who operate out of “if you knew the real (imperfect) me, you’d find me lacking.”
Contrition for wrong-doing is one of the signature traits of Oldham's Serious Style, the ptypes analog for the 9w1.
"7. Contrition. Serious people suffer greatly when they realize they've been thoughtless or impolite to others. "
I think Obama has it in his nature to own up to his mistakes. |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Feb 2009 2:25:33 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:32:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
9s are conservatives unlike 3s who are into evolving .
But Obama is personally conservative and not into evolving. He's the opposite of that, he thinks he's fine the way he is, or realistic enough to know that he's not going to evolve into something better.
The talk about a shape-shifting Obama, that he is someone who is continuously trying to change and re-invent himself, is bs.
Obama is oriented to the past. He is conservative and traditional personally and wants the country to return to its traditional values. He wants to lead a return to Keynesian economic policies and a bipartisan foreign policy. He has stated that he prefers the foreign policy approach of the Bush Sr. administration. |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Feb 2009 2:43:51 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:35:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
their thinking is 9s live through the other
so they can never really be wrong and can't
admit to being wrong if that's what you wanted.
also 9s are past oriented not future oriented
and are nostalgic about the past, unlike 5s.
9s find comfort in the past so says 9s that
think they are 5s.
9s are upset about the future because it is unknown.
Respectability is more important to 9s than 3s.
9s are conservatives unlike 3s who are into evolving .
Ron
Ron, your boxers are way too brief.
********* / *
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:43:15 PM
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Yes I think that would be his 4 wing.
This is what I like most about Obama
is his healthy 4 wing .
If we'd have voted for a 9 it would be because
we wanted things to remain the same and the same
would have been insanity at this point and that
is not reality.
We know what we the little people wanted all a
long but until Obama came along there was no hope.
Now we have hope and we hope Obama can bring um down.
The little people didn't vote for a 9 because we now
know better. 9s have their place and time but it's over
and we have to clean up the 9s mess in this case because
the mess is too big for any type 9.
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:45:25 PM
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gray, if you'd stop looking at my underwear
and wipe that silly grin off your face , you
might learn something about yourself.
Ron
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:47:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Yes I think that would be his 4 wing.
This is what I like most about Obama
is his healthy 4 wing .
If we'd have voted for a 9 it would be because
we wanted things to remain the same and the same
would have been insanity at this point and that
is not reality.
We know what we the little people wanted all a
long but until Obama came along there was no hope.
Now we have hope and we hope Obama can bring um down.
The little people didn't vote for a 9 because we now
know better. 9s have their place and time but it's over
and we have to clean up the 9s mess in this case because
the mess is too big for any type 9.
This sounds childish to me. |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:50:18 PM
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The flaw of Mr. Obama is he is self deceptive
and we the "E" students know and see this but
some convert it into 9ness. You are confusing
yourselves with the "E" facts and politics .
Ron
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 2:52:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
The flaw of Mr. Obama is he is self deceptive
and we the "E" students know and see this but
some convert it into 9ness. You are confusing
yourselves with the "E" facts and politics .
Ron
Oh, I see. |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 3:01:36 PM
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Why are a 9 selfdeceptive?
Why are a 3 selfdeceptive?
There is a difference.
Ron
ps. leave my shorts out of this conversation please |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
