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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 5:22:34 PM
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Is it possible to be fixated between 9 and 3..."living on the line" so to speak?
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 6:33:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
Is it possible to be fixated between 9 and 3..."living on the line" so to speak?
9-7-4sx/sp/so XNFP
According to the theory, as per R and H, the connection between Three and Nine is one between integration and disintegration. Nines integrate to Three and Threes disintegrate to Nine.
Maybe things are different or more complicated than that, but as far as I know, no one involved in Enneagram theory thinks that we can have more than one chief fixation. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 6:48:32 PM
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Obama admission of mistake rare for presidents
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Presidents do not like to admit mistakes. They see it as a sign of weakness. That is why it was noteworthy that Barack Obama publicly admitted making a mistake only two weeks after taking power."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/burningIssues/idUKTRE51371Q20090204 |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Feb 2009 6:49:07 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 6:54:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
OK...which type has a natural relationship with the kiddies. (Hint: imo, it ain't type Three. Kids have no power.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/04/chris-wallace-my-grandson_n_164054.html
""The thing that struck me the most was how easily and how comfortably he wears the mantle of the Presidency," he said. "He seems completely at ease with the job and the trappings and the responsibilities and seemed completely serene - and it was a tough day yesterday.""
He thrives on responsibility. I have that as a chief feature of the Serious type and 9w1. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 8:08:04 PM
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Jol, anything is possible, not.
We are our type, plain and simple unless it's complicated.
486 subtypes and that's just the beginning but we are our type
and that is based on our fundamental way of thinking and you
can do with that and add to it but still you are your type.
If you want to be between two types you still are your type
based on the beginning. You may transcend the self but your
memory is still in tact, therefore you are still your type.
We are essence.
Ron
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Edited by - .ron4 on 04 Feb 2009 8:11:35 PM |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 8:33:44 PM
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ptypes: I'm starting to think that the Institute doesn't think well enough of Nines. 
Think Stealth Bombers
"Stealth Bomber
The stealth bomber is known for its speed and covertness. It is a heavy duty bomber which can easily breach the enemy’s defenses from pretty much any altitude. It is not uncommon for this aircraft to fly as high as 55,000ft to locate and destroy targets. The Stealth Bomber is so fast the military can deploy the bomber and it literally can fly anywhere in the world within a few hours.
The aircraft carries all of its weapons internally and has two departments or bays located in the center of the aircraft. When looking at the aircraft from the outside, you cannot tell if it is carrying conventional weapons or more powerful weapons like a nuclear weapon. The stealth bomber can carry up to 40,000lb of weapons."
http://www.stealthbomber.net/
"Stealth aircraft are aircraft that use stealth technology to make it harder to be detected by radar and other means than conventional aircraft by employing a combination of features to reduce visibility in the visual, audio, infrared and radio frequency (RF) spectrum. They were first developed by the Germans at the end of World War II[citation needed] , with the Horten Ho 229. Well known examples include the United States' F-117 Nighthawk (1980s-2008), the B-2 Spirit "Stealth Bomber," and the F-22 Raptor.[1]
While no aircraft is totally invisible to radar, stealth aircraft limit current conventional radar's abilities to detect or track them effectively enough to prevent an attack. Stealth is accomplished by using a complex design philosophy to reduce the ability of an opponent's sensors to detect, track and attack an aircraft.[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_bomber
"Engine
The aircraft is powered by four General Electric F118-GE-100 turbofan engines internally mounted in the body of the wings.
The engines have an exhaust temperature control system to minimise thermal signature.
The engines, rated at 77kN, provide a high subsonic speed and a maximum gross take-off weight of 336,500lb. In-flight refuelling gear is installed in the top centre line of the aircraft behind the cockpit."
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/
quote:
Originally posted by pork
It's too easy to underestimate what they can do when they get going -
the flip side of inertia.
Stealth |
Edited by - Anastacia Lacrosse on 04 Feb 2009 8:54:21 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 8:42:18 PM
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| Stealth, your allusion is a bit technological. |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 8:59:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
Stealth, your allusion is a bit technological.
Just focus on the style, the make up and the principles upon which the aircraft operates. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 9:07:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
If the E9 has the needs of the group ( The American people ) ahead of his own needs ( E3: TO Be the Best President they can Be ) they can be masters of "stealth" as opposed to "self-deceptive", and will stealthily plod along if motivated, ie "DRIVEN" (E3), by a higher purpose in order to both protect those intersts and achieve their "goal" (E3) with the ultimate deliverance. At their best E9s are unbeatable ( Indomitable E9 )= The Best (E3)
I'm not willing to replace self-deception in the Nine with stealth. |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 10:47:30 PM
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I don't know if it
s been mentioned before
but there's no comparison
of Obama to Gray44, oceanlife, "W", Pie, or Walt Disney.
I think people are blind to Obama's 4 wing just as much
as they are to the invisible wing that goes with the type 9
they see him to be.
From R&H
The 3 with 4 wing
The traits of the 3 and those of the 4 produce a complex
subtype whose traits often conflict with each other.
The 3 is essentially an "interpersonal" type, whereas the
4 withdraws from contact with others. To the degree that the
4 wing is operative, some persons of this subtype seem "more
like 4s" than 3s.
When we look at the list of 3/4s like Stallone,Andy Warhol,
dick Cavett, Truman Capote, Mick Jagger, Barack Obama they're
all over the place, so it's no wonder he's hard to see.
Ron
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Edited by - .ron4 on 04 Feb 2009 10:49:59 PM |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 03:58:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I'm not willing to replace self-deception in the Nine with stealth.
Them maybe ,like the Institute, you don't think well enough of Nines
Forgive me for I have failed to introduce myself. I have been observing this forum for the most of 7 years and feel as if I have known you all. I did not feel moved to comment until yours and Pork's comment about the underestimation and devaluation of Nines moved me "to show up" as if I had always been around and clearly visible. Is that stealth or self-deceptive of me?
Only I can determine that "truth".
My point is, it isn't up for me, the observer, to replace behaviour when I don't know the full nature of the "thing" observed. A person is not just a type and human behaviour is subjective to diferent perspectives and therefore allows for diferent angles of interpretation. It is about assigning and allowing different posibilities. A person being stealth or self deceptive is not necesseraly either/or. It could be either or both. Moments of either is more likely.
The Enneagram is, as far I have seen, a system that is opened to subjective human interpretation. The possibilities are dynamic and fluid, such as is the nature of being human. That is the only constant.
I perceive a lot of compartmentalization; "Nines would never say this", "Only threes would do that", when maybe, maybe we could just step out of our boxes and perceive the dynamic nature of reality.
E9s being self-deceptive and E9s being stealth are just two different possibilities or interpretations.
I believe there are principles of understanding complex systems (human nature). There are no hard and fast rules.
And that is just my own interpretation in this moment.
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bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 07:42:56 AM
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quote:
It would, indeed, be the most rare of Nines who would be characterized as having a "supremely self-assured nature...." and so forth. (This kind of thing cannot be put down to his being a Nine who goes to Three, either.)
It would also be the most rare of Threes who would be characterized as laid back, apologetic and boring. I really don't get why you're contradicting your own integration theory. IME people who are very developed often do look a lot like their DOI point, sometimes to the point where it's difficult to detect anything of their primary enneatype.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/index.jhtml
check out "Obama: Day 15" (links in central column under video monitor) |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 10:11:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
[quote]
http://www.thedailyshow.com/index.jhtml
check out "Obama: Day 15" (links in central column under video monitor)
Jon Stewart's comment (midway into that video) about Obama needing a 'middle gear' says a hell of a lot....
********* / *
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 1:37:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Jon Stewart's comment (midway into that video) about Obama needing a 'middle gear' says a hell of a lot....
He mentioned 9w1 Abraham Lincoln as representing one pole of Obama's personality or style. He also mentioned John Kerry, who I, for one, have typed 9w1. [actually, Abe Wigoda was associated with the Kerry pole, and Lincoln and JFK represented the other pole]
He didn't mention a three as representing the other pole.
I liked "Where did this guy go?" |
Edited by - ptypes on 05 Feb 2009 1:47:42 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 2:10:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I'm not willing to replace self-deception in the Nine with stealth.
Them maybe ,like the Institute, you don't think well enough of Nines
I'm was thinking as a typologist concerned for usefulness of the Enneagram type constructs. We were looking at the two types in question from the perspective of their typical self-deception. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 2:28:17 PM
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Obama's Typeing.
Let's consider the 4 wing.
From Personality Types, R&H
The Self-Revealing Individual/level 3 type 4
Healthy 4s need to express what they feel so they can know
what their intuitions are telling them about themselves.
They are the most personal of the personality types, revealing
themselves to others with directness and authenticity. They do
not put on masks, hiding their doubts and weaknesses, nor do
they deceive themselves about their feelings and impulses no
matter how unseemly of unflattering these are. Healthy 4s will-
ingly reveal their flaws and irrationalities to others, since
they feel that these things are not merely incidental to who
they are, but reflect their essence. It would be dishonest to
communicate themselves to others if they did not communicate
the whole of themselves, the bad along with the good, doubts
along with certainty. There is something very human about this;
theirs is a genuineness and depth of feeling, a willingness to
be touched, even at the expense of pain, if that is the authen-
tic thing to do.
More to follow....
Ron
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 3:25:20 PM
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Obama Losing Stimulus Fight to Defeated GOP
" For most of the debate, Obama has cast himself as a benevolent referee overseeing a sprawling and untidy legislative process to which he would eventually bring order. He urged Democrats to knock out small spending measures that had caused public relations problems while doing little to defend the overall package or to reply to its Republican critics.
"In the meantime, those critics were relentless, often casting logic aside to reframe the debate from a practical concern over how to rescue the economy to an ideological dispute about government spending."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/02/obama_losing_stimulus_fight_to.html |
Edited by - ptypes on 05 Feb 2009 3:26:44 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 4:01:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Jon Stewart's comment (midway into that video) about Obama needing a 'middle gear' says a hell of a lot....
He mentioned 9w1 Abraham Lincoln as representing one pole of Obama's personality or style. He also mentioned John Kerry, who I, for one, have typed 9w1. [actually, Abe Wigoda was associated with the Kerry pole, and Lincoln and JFK represented the other pole]
He didn't mention a three as representing the other pole.
I liked "Where did this guy go?"
I agree with Kerry being a 9w1.
Rather than the pole between 3 and 9, I was alluding to the 9's relationship to the two poles of inertia (i.e.- active and inactive - though these can, obviously, be assigned to 3 and 9, respectively). Again, one author describes the 9's counter-passion as 'hyper-activity' - the opposite pole of sloth.
Inertia is particularly apropos for 9s when looked at from R&H's description of E9 as being disconnected from their instinctual center, i.e.- disconnected from their own 'propulsion engine'. The active side of inertia is launched via an outer force - an idea, an emotional compulsion toward a larger 'social participation' - galvanization via something that is perceived as larger than the self.
So, "no middle gear" is a very tight fit for E9.
********* / *
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 4:32:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
I agree with Kerry being a 9w1.
Rather than the pole between 3 and 9, I was alluding to the 9's relationship to the two poles of inertia (i.e.- active and inactive - though these can, obviously, be assigned to 3 and 9, respectively). Again, one author describes the 9's counter-passion as 'hyper-activity' - the opposite pole of sloth.
Inertia is particularly apropos for 9s when looked at from R&H's description of E9 as being disconnected from their instinctual center, i.e.- disconnected from their own 'propulsion engine'. The active side of inertia is launched via an outer force - an idea, an emotional compulsion toward a larger 'social participation' - galvanization via something that is perceived as larger than the self.
So, "no middle gear" is a very tight fit for E9.
Yes, I was thinking more of the poles of temperament. I associate the 9w1 with the depressive temperament. Lincoln has been diagnosed (not necessarily in the clinical sense) as a unipolar depressive. But one writer that I know of, Fieve (Mood Swings) diagnosed him as bipolar, and referenced some of his manic behavior. It didn't sound to me like what we usually think of as manic-depressive. But you could see movement out of the baseline depressive or melancholic state to a more livelier state.
I don't think it will be difficult to see Obama occasionaly going from his baseline "melancholic" state to Stewarts "Where did that guy go" state. |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 5:01:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Obama's Typeing.
Let's consider the 4 wing.
From Personality Types, R&H
The Self-Revealing Individual/level 3 type 4
Healthy 4s need to express what they feel so they can know
what their intuitions are telling them about themselves.
They are the most personal of the personality types, revealing
themselves to others with directness and authenticity. They do
not put on masks, hiding their doubts and weaknesses, nor do
they deceive themselves about their feelings and impulses no
matter how unseemly of unflattering these are. Healthy 4s will-
ingly reveal their flaws and irrationalities to others, since
they feel that these things are not merely incidental to who
they are, but reflect their essence. It would be dishonest to
communicate themselves to others if they did not communicate
the whole of themselves, the bad along with the good, doubts
along with certainty. There is something very human about this;
theirs is a genuineness and depth of feeling, a willingness to
be touched, even at the expense of pain, if that is the authen-
tic thing to do.
More to follow....
Ron
Healthy 4s are concerned with being true to themselves as
individuals, even at the risk of being censured by those who
value tradition or convention over self-actualization. The
emotional honesty we find in healthy 4s may well antagonize,
or at least embarrass, others, who may wish that 4s were not
so candid about themselves. But what healthy 4s bring to society
is the example of their humanity, the message that everyone is
valuable because they are individuals.
more to come...
Thus, just as healthy 4s want to be true to themselves, they
also want others to be true to themselves.(This above all:to
thine own self be true,/And it must follow, as the night the
day,/Thou canst not then be false t any man."--Hamlet I iii,
78-80) They are respectful of the individuality of others,
sensitive about their feelings, considerate of their privacy
and their needs. 4s willingly allow others to find their own
way in life without trying to control them, one reason why
they make good parents, friends, listeners, and therapists.
They see other people as "other," not as functions of them-
selves or as objects to be used for their own gratification.
Because Healthy Fours are aware of themselves as individuals, they have a sharp sense of their unique otherness, as well as the otherness of everything. Although, they are not lonely, they understand that they are alone in life, an individual consciousness. From this point of view, healthy Fours are not merely individualists but existentialists, aware of their existence as individuals.
While there is a certain seriousness about all of this, healthy Fours are not serious about everything. They have a rich sense of humor because they see the poignant absurdity of much of human behavior in the light of the larger questions of life. Healthy Fours have a kind of double vision on human nature: at the same time, they can see the devil and the angel, the sordid and the noble in human beings, especially in themselves. The ironic juxtaposition of such opposites is a funny as it is deeply touching. The incongruities of the human condition make healthy Fours shale their heads in amusement, and nowhere are they more aware of human incongruities than in themselves.
R&H
I think this will help fill in for those look-alike 9 traits.
Ron
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Edited by - .ron4 on 05 Feb 2009 5:23:10 PM |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
