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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 5:34:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Inertia is particularly apropos for 9s when looked at from R&H's description of E9 as being disconnected from their instinctual center, i.e.- disconnected from their own 'propulsion engine'. The active side of inertia is launched via an outer force - an idea, an emotional compulsion toward a larger 'social participation' - galvanization via something that is perceived as larger than the self.
So, "no middle gear" is a very tight fit for E9.
********* / *
This is what I alluded to here:
quote:
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Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
If the E9 has the needs of the group ( The American people ) ahead of his own needs ( E3: TO Be the Best President they can Be ) they can be masters of "stealth" as opposed to "self-deceptive", and will stealthily plod along if motivated, ie "DRIVEN" (E3), by a higher purpose in order to both protect those intersts and achieve their "goal" (E3) with the ultimate deliverance. At their best E9s are unbeatable ( Indomitable E9 )= The Best (E3)
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E9s at avarage levels are self-decptive in that they show us the image of "Nobody Special".
Once a Nine has crossed over into health, even if they can't sustain it, that momentary connection with their powerful instictual drives gives them the knowledge that they can be not "The Best" but "at their best" (and they have a sense how great that can be), that they can make a difference if only they could sustain that connection. They are likely to experience moments of self-possession and appear to switch from being either "fully on" or "fully off". Maintaining self possession is a challenge that awakened Nines usually meet by finding a cause "greater than themselves" for two possible reasons:
1. Their efficiency: Something greater than themselves presents a challange that matches and arouses their powerful drives. ( A little bit like the Top Model who said: "I won't get out of bed for less than a millon dollars" )
2. Their defficiency : I am not important enough, why bother, why wake up. I alone am not worthy. ( E3 beleives they alone are not worthy but unlike E3, E9 does not belive they need to earn acceptance since they themselves are unconditionally accepting of others and expect the same will be shown them and when it doesn't happen they go to sleep )
In that sense E3s are driven but E9s drive
That is what I was alluding to with the metaphor of the Stealth Bomber.
An E9 who has become aware of what they are capable of can become "low visibility" ( as opposed to "invisible" when they are self-deceptive ) and can suddenly appear ( fuelled by the volcanic power of the 8 wing engine ) and deliver the right action ( fuelled by the purposefullness and principle of the 1 wing engine ).
For a type that is supposed to include the whole enneagram into their selves( Wisdom of the Enn; R&H pg316) waking up and staying up is no small task.
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Habanero
Member
1197 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 11:50:47 AM
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Your metaphor, as you’ve described it, works for me. I know that I am very effective, productive, and efficient, if I see myself as a conduit/facilitator/catalyst for something greater than myself. At these times I move from being invisible, to being very present and very visible. The interesting thing is, I don’t feel the focus is on ME, but my ideals, goals, hopes, dreams.
I attended a Jack Johnson concert over the Summer. Wasn’t at all familiar with him, with very little familiarity with his music. We were on vacation and my kids wanted to go. It was held at my alma mater so I went mainly with the excuse of chilling at my old school. I vibed him out as a Nine pretty easily. He’s an ambivalent performer, not really commanding of the stage. He seemed to gain the most energy though when talking about environmentalism which he is obviously genuinely passionate about. That’s the only time his presence stood out. Then he sort of receded into the “shared experience” thing which Nines are pretty good at doing.
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Edited by - Habanero on 06 Feb 2009 11:53:22 AM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 1:47:48 PM
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Another right winger likens Obama to the 3w4 Jimmy Carter.
"And yet, this President Obama we have just doesn't seem like the Barack Obama that won the election. The American electorate, it has been said, always goes with the perceived 'sunnier' candidate when voting for president, and you can make a very good case for that. There certainly was little contest on that basis between Barack Obama and John McCain. Obama spoke constantly of hope, avoided controversial wedge issues, and projected one of the most unflappably pleasant dispositions of any presidential candidate since the dawn of the TV age. His motto was, famously, 'Yes we can.' Yet, the day after the election, Barack Obama turned on a dime. Suddenly, he started telling us, things were not only very bad, but were going to be getting a lot worse. Inevitably. It was easy enough to see the point of this move, tactically speaking. He needed to lower people's expectations of the coming New Jerusalem that would arrive with his inauguration, just a tad. He needed to set the bar lower with regard to how success would be defined for him in his first few months. And -- more controversially, but, I am convinced, truly -- he wanted to foster to some extent a sense of crisis, as it would assist him and the Democratic congress in quickly passing sweeping measures to advance their political agenda.
"It was understandable the day after the election. But then it continued. And continued. Things were going to get worse, no matter what, President-elect Obama kept saying. There's a reason you don't usually hear presidents predict that the economy is going to get worse: it's because their statements to that effect have a serious self-fulfilling power. If the president says the economy is going to be worse a few months from now, then why should I make a big purchase or any kind of investment? Of-course, American consumers were already cutting back on spending in a big way way. But the constant gloomy predictions from the main man in Washington have without a doubt dampened any potential of optimism, and have helped send the economy into a true death-spiral. With consumer spending falling off a cliff, lay-offs are mushrooming, pushing consumer spending even lower, and so on. You don't have to be an economist to see that it's a lethal cycle. And President Obama, elected for his sunny optimism, has been unwilling to invest one iota of that winsome hopefulness in any attempt to buck up the spirits of the American consumer."
http://www.rightwingbob.com/weblog/archives/3747 |
Edited by - ptypes on 06 Feb 2009 1:51:10 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 2:03:19 PM
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Obama is being truthful.
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 8:18:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Obama is being truthful.
It is true that 3's virtue is truthfulness.
That's a good point, ron.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 9:10:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Habanero
Your metaphor, as you’ve described it, works for me. I know that I am very effective, productive, and efficient, if I see myself as a conduit/facilitator/catalyst for something greater than myself. At these times I move from being invisible, to being very present and very visible. The interesting thing is, I don’t feel the focus is on ME, but my ideals, goals, hopes, dreams.
Thanks for sharing that, Habanero.
The description of type Nines I've read are very hazy, and quite rightly so since that is part of their self-image: "There's not much to see here".
I have read Nines being described as "a receptive force" on the EI books, however no insight on when and how they become an "an active force" and even an "unstopable force" which brings to mind their Holy Idea of Holy Love:
When Nines are/have a moment of wakefulness they can become Love in Action: Fully feeling and fully responding.
Because of their positive identification with a cause/person/group "greater than themselves" they can become greater ( special consideration given to the fact they have such much internal space hence the "receptive force" observation ) though it is no longer "I"/or the individual self that becomes Great/The Best but the cause, ideal, hope or mission their have identified with is the best/great in the sense that ir arouses the passion in each particular Nine.That might explain why you/Nines do not feel the focus is on "ME"/them. Depending on the high profile or importance of the cause ( something/someone being important enough is a key factor in waking Nines up ) a Nine may not only become more visible but also experience themselves as being "invincible" on the inner idealist belief that justice and goodness will prevail - not that "I" will prevail since at this stage they are mere instruments, chanels of that indomitable power/force.
To achieve their mission/express their passion they can become, access and express whatever qualities, use whatever srategies or tactics to meet the needs that the moment present.
That is the style and nature of "stealth" I had invisioned Nines at the depth of their selves. There is a lot more than meets the eye when it comes to Nines which is difficult to access due to their orientation of being so receptive. The can be come a highly private charachter, even to themselves. Also, as the R&H have put in The Wisdom of the E, pg316 "Nine is at the center of the Instinctive Triad and is the type that is potentially the most grounded in the physical world and their own bodies"
With roots that potentially run so deep getting the true picture of Nines can require laser sharp vision.
If Obama is a Nine, his self-assuredness could be seen from another perspective as arising from that feeling of invincibility, due to the nature and importance of the cause he has identified with. Using pragmatism to achieve idealism could be explained as part of using tactics as part of a strategic unfolding to arrive at a "check-mate" situation.
The British press said of Obama when they showed footage of him admiting his mistake:
"And here is the boss taking all the bullets"
If he is an E3 he is indeed outstanding.
If he is a Stealth E9 than not only is he being humble and guiless but also, maybe on a deeper level a Nine on a mission who will not be stopped even by his own mistakes and/or who will even take all the blame to protect the interests of the greater cause he is an ambassador for.
( Also, on a side note, his message may be one of Hope but what is it he is hoping for? The hope of peace and union between black and whites, rich and poor, East and West? Would an Ambassador for Peace preach Hope(E3), which inspires Faith(E6), which makes Love(E9) arise and Act thus creating Union? Hope+Faith=Love in Action, isn't that the direction of integration of E9?)
"When Nines are in balance with their Instinctive Center and its energy , however, they are like a great river, carrying everything along with it effortlessly"
The Wisdom of the E, pg316 R&H
Maybe we need to ask ourselves:
In practical terms, how does this instinctual energy and effortlessnes expresses itself and could this be interpreted as a Threeish carachter?
Could this be related to the gut and head E3 effectiveness? |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 9:25:59 PM
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On a shorter note:
I just think that the true nature of Nines is very elusive.
And I ask myself:
Isn't the true nature of peace an effortless, assured activity? |
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oceanlife
Member
5000 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 9:31:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
If Obama is a Nine, his self-assuredness could be seen from another perspective as arising from that feeling of invincibility, due to the nature and importance of the cause he has identified with.
this is a good point, as the un-selfconsciousness of 9 (in theory) would make him feel/believe he is impervious to any potential self harm in taking over a failing country. As if he has no real personal involvement or risk. Especially being sx-last. It's like a shell. Almost 2-like ('I'm fine. It's you people who I'm here to help.')
Me, I'd crumble at the first chance to take things too personally. |
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Laelth
Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 01:55:19 AM
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Astounding! Obama is a 3 or a 9? Are those our only choices?
I continue to see Obama as a 1. His recent speech to the House Democrats just oozes righteous indignation and tightly-controlled anger. He's even got 1 humor (angry humor). I agree that he's in the competence triad. Take a look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGgzOOXvZQI
I don't think you'll find a lot of chain-smoking 3s, but feel free to manufacture them, if you must. :)
-Laelth
Type 1 (wing uncertain), SX/SO/SP, INTJ
"The only way to always be right is to always be open to the possibility that you are wrong." -Laelth |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 02:38:54 AM
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Are there a lot of chain smoking 1s out there ?
Chain smoking 4s, oh yeah.
When you see Obama frustrated and giving the voice to
others that say, we are in trouble and the people want
change, that is 4 wing ime.
He's not afraid to be wrong, he's afraid to do nothing.
He's not about keeping secrets from the people like so
many politicians. He's about being honest and that may
be a fault and a killer for a politician but he's not
the type that can lie, so 'you' wont be afraid. Right or
wrong in what he is doing about the bailout, it wont be
said, that Obama is a liar if he can help it.
Ron |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 3:52:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
When you see Obama frustrated and giving the voice to
others that say, we are in trouble and the people want
change, that is 4 wing ime.
He's not afraid to be wrong, he's afraid to do nothing.
He's not about keeping secrets from the people like so
many politicians. He's about being honest and that may
be a fault and a killer for a politician but he's not
the type that can lie, so 'you' wont be afraid. Right or
wrong in what he is doing about the bailout, it wont be
said, that Obama is a liar if he can help it.
Honest Abe |
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Ten
Member
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 9:27:48 PM
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I thought of threes as one of the most likely to smoke, though maybe not chain smoke, especially if you have to be a role model. It looks stylish but it's hard on the heart. I still struggle to abstain from it myself, after over a decade of smoking. I smoked for more sevenish reasons.
I'm all the numbers at sometime or another. Sometimes they even let me switch planets. |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 02:04:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
When you see Obama frustrated and giving the voice to
others that say, we are in trouble and the people want
change, that is 4 wing ime.
He's not afraid to be wrong, he's afraid to do nothing.
He's not about keeping secrets from the people like so
many politicians. He's about being honest and that may
be a fault and a killer for a politician but he's not
the type that can lie, so 'you' wont be afraid. Right or
wrong in what he is doing about the bailout, it wont be
said, that Obama is a liar if he can help it.
Honest Abe
Bona fide Barack |
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bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:45:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
Out of the gate things are really looking niney.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/opinion/09krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
Same old Barack. This is how he was with his first big leadership position on the Harvard Law Review 20 yrs ago. This is undoubtedly the way he has been his entire life.
"What do you call someone who eliminates hundreds of thousands of American jobs, deprives millions of adequate health care and nutrition, undermines schools, but offers a $15,000 bonus to affluent people who flip their houses?
"A proud centrist. For that is what the senators who ended up calling the tune on the stimulus bill just accomplished.
"Even if the original Obama plan — around $800 billion in stimulus, with a substantial fraction of that total given over to ineffective tax cuts — had been enacted, it wouldn’t have been enough to fill the looming hole in the U.S. economy, which the Congressional Budget Office estimates will amount to $2.9 trillion over the next three years.
"Yet the centrists did their best to make the plan weaker and worse.
"One of the best features of the original plan was aid to cash-strapped state governments, which would have provided a quick boost to the economy while preserving essential services. But the centrists insisted on a $40 billion cut in that spending.
"The original plan also included badly needed spending on school construction; $16 billion of that spending was cut. It included aid to the unemployed, especially help in maintaining health care — cut. Food stamps — cut. All in all, more than $80 billion was cut from the plan, with the great bulk of those cuts falling on precisely the measures that would do the most to reduce the depth and pain of this slump.
"On the other hand, the centrists were apparently just fine with one of the worst provisions in the Senate bill, a tax credit for home buyers. Dean Baker of the Center for Economic Policy Research calls this the “flip your house to your brother” provision: it will cost a lot of money while doing nothing to help the economy.
"All in all, the centrists’ insistence on comforting the comfortable while afflicting the afflicted will, if reflected in the final bill, lead to substantially lower employment and substantially more suffering.
"But how did this happen? I blame President Obama’s belief that he can transcend the partisan divide — a belief that warped his economic strategy.
"After all, many people expected Mr. Obama to come out with a really strong stimulus plan, reflecting both the economy’s dire straits and his own electoral mandate.
"Instead, however, he offered a plan that was clearly both too small and too heavily reliant on tax cuts. Why? Because he wanted the plan to have broad bipartisan support, and believed that it would. Not long ago administration strategists were talking about getting 80 or more votes in the Senate.
"Mr. Obama’s postpartisan yearnings may also explain why he didn’t do something crucially important: speak forcefully about how government spending can help support the economy. Instead, he let conservatives define the debate, waiting until late last week before finally saying what needed to be said — that increasing spending is the whole point of the plan.
"And Mr. Obama got nothing in return for his bipartisan outreach. Not one Republican voted for the House version of the stimulus plan, which was, by the way, better focused than the original administration proposal.
"In the Senate, Republicans inveighed against “pork” — although the wasteful spending they claimed to have identified (much of it was fully justified) was a trivial share of the bill’s total. And they decried the bill’s cost — even as 36 out of 41 Republican senators voted to replace the Obama plan with $3 trillion, that’s right, $3 trillion in tax cuts over 10 years.
"So Mr. Obama was reduced to bargaining for the votes of those centrists. And the centrists, predictably, extracted a pound of flesh — not, as far as anyone can tell, based on any coherent economic argument, but simply to demonstrate their centrist mojo. They probably would have demanded that $100 billion or so be cut from anything Mr. Obama proposed; by coming in with such a low initial bid, the president guaranteed that the final deal would be much too small.
"Such are the perils of negotiating with yourself."
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:57:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
Out of the gate things are really looking niney.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/opinion/08dowd.html
I think my friend Marie is wrong on Henry David Thoreau's type (1w9). In my book he is a prototypical 9w1.
"Obama aides call the morass a good wake-up call, and the president seems more aware of how the White House weather can cloud your thinking. Maybe that’s why he keeps trying to pop out to get a breath of fresh air — at an elementary school, at the Kennedy Center, at Camp David.
"On Friday, a reporter asked Robert Gibbs if the president was already feeling cooped up.
“He’s a bit of a restless soul,” Gibbs said, laughing. “His idea of a crazy day is to take a long walk.”
"A long walk where? somebody asked.
“In solitude and isolation,” Gibbs replied.
"President Obama doesn’t need to leave his new home to be isolated. That’s the specialty of the White House."
BTW, you can follow me on Twitter. http://twitter.com/ptypes |
Edited by - ptypes on 09 Feb 2009 12:34:22 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 2:13:06 PM
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If my 3/4 brother were to take a long walk
I would be very worried for his mental health.
Ron
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 9:54:18 PM
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Indeed, my 3w4 brother killed himself after taking a long walk.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 3:02:41 PM
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"Feb. 10, 2009 | Barack Obama is constitutionally inclined to be a conciliator and a difference-splitter. As a legislator in Illinois, he was noted for his ability to get different parties to come together. In both his books, he appeals for America to go beyond old labels and ideological pigeonholes. And in his 2004 keynote address at the Democratic National Convention, the speech that launched his national political career, he famously said, "There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America.""
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/02/10/obama_reagan/ |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 4:26:12 PM
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"Obama Sternly Takes on His Critics"
"Gone were the soothing notes of the last three weeks. Authoritative and unsmiling, gloomy rather than inspirational, Mr. Obama cast the nation’s economy in dire light and offered a barbed point-by-point critique of the Republican argument that his plan would just create more government jobs and authorize a raft of new wasteful spending."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/politics/10assess.html?_r=1&em |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2009 : 5:24:52 PM
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"Obama's Lincolnesque Faith Embraces Uncertainty"
"Perilous times plagued our nation in the days before Lincoln and Obama took presidential oaths. Both realized one dynamic was certain: Uncertainty.
"We know believers who assume strong faith cancels uncertainty. They’re unaware how sometimes, when a lamp of truth burns brightly to light the way ahead, its glare blinds the beholder’s eyesight. Cocksure convictions, wrapped in certainty only God holds, show that such a believer is foolish.
"Lincoln and ardent admirer Obama reveal Christian faith that realistically accepts uncertainty. Prior to their inaugurals, they rejected rigid faith because instant solutions to knotty problems don’t magically appear. Nor did Lincoln and Obama pretend to pick up a messy world where heroes win every political victory and villains engineer each campaign defeat. Neither of these presidents-elect spoke of a tidy world crammed with ethical certainties. Using Christian faith, they brooded over how to handle life stuffed with uncertainty."
http://www.pres-outlook.com/reports-a-resources/presbyterian-heritage-articles/8354-obamas-lincolnesque-faith-embraces-uncertainty.html |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 3:05:35 PM
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I guess then we're in for a 'civil war'.
I've been telling people for years now to, save your
Dixie cups cause the South will rise again.
Look away, Look away.
Ron |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 4:32:18 PM
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"The Voice of American Pragmatism"
"What is American pragmatism? It is a political philosophy rooted in the twin principles of action and usefulness. "If we take this action, will it be more useful than that action?" That is the basic question of American pragmatism.
"The great American pragmatists, of course, are names that we once held up in this country with great pride, Ralph Waldo Emerson, William James, Abraham Lincoln.
"Listening to Obama's press conference, it was strikingly clear that he was speaking in the voice of American pragmatism."
"http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/the-voice-of-american-pra_b_165631.html |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
