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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 2:28:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anne
I know more than one 3 whose personality(persona) would simply not allow the victory lap that you refer to over and over as the 3 signature...turning the 3 into a literal rather than metaphorical olympic athelete. Perhaps you would type those 3's as not 3's or even 9's.
Obama's public strategy works, there's no need to alter it, and further it is an embodiment of him. It is about feeling comfortable in his clothes..his role...his approach to the outer world. (It is the development of the pearl if you wish to speak of it using another language...a type of personalization...of one's participation in the world...that allows one to be paradoxically contactful). Regarding his capacity to bring a unity consciousness to the table...I'd say that has to do with his personal calling...his upbringing...the challenge he has faced since birth...and whatever spiritual vibrations he has been born into and also is able to hold. To reduce him to his E type, and at that a caricature of an E type, is what leaves me speechless.
I know Threes that would never do a victory lap either. I'm intentionally pushing forward overt caricatures to place Obama next to....to then observe the subsequent discord or accord.
The photos of him upon watching his own victory for the presidency are like looking at a flat tire - it's just too far into 'energy flacidity' at the moment of the 'big win' - again, the biggest outer win possible on Planet Earth. My point is that, if we're straddling the line between 9 and 3 (trying to decide between the two), that particular event (alone) shows a reaction that was at very least "just over the line" into 9-ness. [And I'm not saying that the one event should be the deciding factor.]
********* / *
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 2:39:39 PM
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Rahm Emmanuel supports Marie: Obama is fixated on bipartisanship. 
"Emanuel Says Obama Team Lost Message on Stimulus"
"White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel conceded President Barack Obama and his team lost control of the message for selling their massive stimulus bill last week, fixating on bipartisanship while Republicans were savaging the legislation.
"But in a wide ranging interview with reporters, Mr. Emanuel said the president's travels across the country this week have shored up support for the $789 billion measure. He strongly defended the young Obama administration against charges that its opening weeks have been amateurish and mistake-prone."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123449249590080699.html
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Edited by - ptypes on 15 Feb 2009 2:42:27 PM |
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shakti
Member
USA
7844 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 4:00:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
This is precisely the sort of thing that sounds quite suspicious from my perspective. Being a Five myself, I know theorizing at the expense of lived experience quite well.
So, according to this analysis, it's Threes who attempt to embody true individuality.
It is a wise caution...theorizing and lived expense...yet there is a place for conceptualizing lived experience...even knowing it is not exact but in the hope of communicating something about the experience.
The three personality uses and overuses an aspect that all of us have access to...it is the part that in Jungian parlance would be the persona...the social mask...again something all of us use. In DH work...they refer to something called the pearl (I've put a link to the glossary entry in my previous post...so it can be viewed from several angles should you or anyone so choose...and not just what ptypes quoted.)
quote:
OK....from there we take it that as Obama resides in Being (!?) and seems like an individualizing individual,rather than someone who resides in "living daylight" and has access to "holy will," he's more likely a Three. I mean, I seem to be missing a step or two here. Maybe I'm just kind of dim. (Alas, I have no access to holy omniscience, being an unrealized Five and all.)
I can see that. It would be no different than if I were to use Jungian anima, self, animus etc. While I am not in the DH School, I do use Almaas's teachings in my own work. bear and I have been having a conversation of several years that involve references to DH terms. So, to me I can see that she is making some connections for herself.
quote:
As I understand it,anyone who has access to "the missing piece" would be individuated,and would have access to whatever energy was needed for the situation at hand. (Also from my pov, it is precisely the nature of individuality to avoid being subsumed by the system. Unless I am missing something.)
I am not sure I follow you here. In my experience, individuation is a process, not a single event...though it is possible to have breakthroughs that can seem as if one has arrived at the end point somehow...and it is true that through repeated experiences of certain states, something can fundamentally alter. For example, one might become free of a certain object relations pattern or having access to an essential presence such as compassion just occurs natually.
quote:
From, my pov, Obama doesn't reside in Being...so, if we are to work within the system of Enneagram fixations, we have to look for where he is fixated, where his compulsions are. Does he compulsively choose image even at the expense of substance? Or does he compulsively seek to mediate disputes in order to feel at peace? Personally, I see more of the latter if we are talking in terms of compulsions. (I do see the Enneagram of personality as describing compulsions/fixations, not personality in its entirety.) I understand that there are some people who see more of the former in Obama. We shall have to agree to disagree on that. But, at least we are playing the same game.
To me, he has married image and substance...and has a fluidity there. He has made his image a part of his substance...and his substance a part of his image. A bit like someone in the armed forces might...the uniform...and the person can in some instances go through a fusion. In his case...I tend to view it as a conscious choice...rather than the unconscious one which many of us may make where we confuse our family role for self or job role for self.
He does have an emptiness...that people allude to...that I have experienced with certain type 3w4s...it is as if they are fully non-resistant yet there.
quote:
Almaas can talk about Being itself. I think that he is simply talking about his own experiences; he made it all up and decreed it to be the way things are. All philosophers do this...but at this point I think we should be onto their game.
Definitely...there is Almaas's own experience...though to be fair to him...he is teaching how to access (open to) such experience for yourself...not how to have his experiences. The nature of this work is such that you simply have to open to what presents. Now, you can say that the techniques that allow such opening...are somehow imitative...and I do agree...techniques such as grounding...breathing...chanting...these are all ways to allow a level of personal attunement...to open to such experiences. Beyond this...to greater or lesser degree based on how people do their own work they may adopt his thinking...temporarily or as a placeholder...until they have experiences themselves that would allow them to speak of certain terrains. Why I use Almaas's work is because I believe he is faithfully offering his experiences and his learning in his writing...and I can do with that what I will...sometimes it is something to contrast...sometimes it something that allows me to know that something else that I am finding painful to experience even with the opening...is part of how this unfolds. I've used the writing of Rumi in a similar manner...I feel spoken to directly through the writing...when I am digesting some experiences where I don't really have a point of reference otherwise....
quote:
Oh...and I do understand that Almaas's students, under his tutelage, will experience much the same things in much the same way that he does. And at Lourdes, the Virgin Mary cures the ills of the afflicted. She really does.
I've addressed one part of this in the paragraph above regarding technique, another part is faith. You are correct that sometimes doing the work with others or being in particular geographic location is what allows one's customary thinking to be set aside for a moment and for enough of an opening for something fresh to occur. So, there is that factor...and the opening may still be an opening that only allows certain types of experiences...such as a miracle cure. Yet, faith...is a vibration...that you can have anywhere. It may be something you learn to experience or allow yourself to experience through some particular school or pilgrimage or catastropic life experience....
quote:
Life is so much easier if we let someone else do our thinking for us, if we let them pre-structure our experience.
It isn't for some of us...easier to allow someone else to do our thinking for us. You are right that this can pre-structure...and yet the learning...even if pre-structured to learn how to shed structuring whether it comes from culture, family, personal experience...eventually will lead to something that is more than the teacher or the teaching...a bit like a clear conversation over the phone allowing the telephone to recede in importance...even if at first it seems miraculous that such a conversation is even possible.
quote:
It's one thing to play with a system. It's quite another thing to confuse it with reality itself.
The game is figuring out Obama's type...with clear indications of type 3 and 9 traits...in reality he is more than his type...and personally...it's more important to me that he is in the position that he is...and that he's doing what he is.
If I never know his type definitively, it's not something I'll be losing sleep over. But, for me, the reason for seeing someone with hugely withdrawn tendencies in Obama who I would still view as not core 9w1 is due to a personal crispness...that I tie to 3w4...it is someone who is seasoned at giving attention to this aspect of himself...he can do a role change in public...staying in just the same persona...whether he is addressing a child or a journalist. It is a gift. It is what Rich who posts on this board alludes to...this committment to being a certain type of person...offering the 3w4 a type of freedom. That's what I see...it is my opinion...and it may very well not match up to reality. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 4:25:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anne
quote:
Originally posted by marie
This is precisely the sort of thing that sounds quite suspicious from my perspective. Being a Five myself, I know theorizing at the expense of lived experience quite well.
So, according to this analysis, it's Threes who attempt to embody true individuality.
It is a wise caution...theorizing and lived expense...yet there is a place for conceptualizing lived experience...even knowing it is not exact but in the hope of communicating something about the experience.
The three personality uses and overuses an aspect that all of us have access to...it is the part that in Jungian parlance would be the persona...the social mask...again something all of us use. In DH work...they refer to something called the pearl (I've put a link to the glossary entry in my previous post...so it can be viewed from several angles should you or anyone so choose...and not just what ptypes quoted.)
Thanks...I have read Almaas.
quote:
OK....from there we take it that as Obama resides in Being (!?) and seems like an individualizing individual,rather than someone who resides in "living daylight" and has access to "holy will," he's more likely a Three. I mean, I seem to be missing a step or two here. Maybe I'm just kind of dim. (Alas, I have no access to holy omniscience, being an unrealized Five and all.)
I can see that. It would be no different than if I were to use Jungian anima, self, animus etc. While I am not in the DH School, I do use Almaas's teachings in my own work. bear and I have been having a conversation of several years that involve references to DH terms. So, to me I can see that she is making some connections for herself.
My complaint was more with the opacity of the terms and the existence of the missing steps than with the (provisional) use of a system. Most of the time when people utilize Almaas's terms, they sound untethered to lived experience to me. Btw, the terms do not become less opaque to me when a reference is provided. Perhaps my problems in this regard can be traced to my lack of spirituality.
quote:
As I understand it,anyone who has access to "the missing piece" would be individuated,and would have access to whatever energy was needed for the situation at hand. (Also from my pov, it is precisely the nature of individuality to avoid being subsumed by the system. Unless I am missing something.)
I am not sure I follow you here. In my experience, individuation is a process, not a single event...though it is possible to have breakthroughs that can seem as if one has arrived at the end point somehow...and it is true that through repeated experiences of certain states, something can fundamentally alter. For example, one might become free of a certain object relations pattern or having access to an essential presence such as compassion just occurs natually.
I wouldn't deny that individuation is a process, but attaining the missing piece has always been presented as a goal and as such I don't think it unreasonable to talk in terms of a certain sustained and sustainable level of development which for a lack of a better word could be termed "individuation." If attaining the missing piece is a difficult to achieve goal, it would be attained only after more preliminary work had been achieved. So, if the Three's missing piece is Nine, a Three would achieve that only at a very high level of development, after having learned how to utilize other types of energy more readily. But, if that is not the theory, I am OK with it. R and H are the theorizers her. It's their sand box. I don't myself see Obama as having attained that level.
quote:
From, my pov, Obama doesn't reside in Being...so, if we are to work within the system of Enneagram fixations, we have to look for where he is fixated, where his compulsions are. Does he compulsively choose image even at the expense of substance? Or does he compulsively seek to mediate disputes in order to feel at peace? Personally, I see more of the latter if we are talking in terms of compulsions. (I do see the Enneagram of personality as describing compulsions/fixations, not personality in its entirety.) I understand that there are some people who see more of the former in Obama. We shall have to agree to disagree on that. But, at least we are playing the same game.
To me, he has married image and substance...and has a fluidity there. He has made his image a part of his substance...and his substance a part of his image. A bit like someone in the armed forces might...the uniform...and the person can in some instances go through a fusion. In his case...I tend to view it as a conscious choice...rather than the unconscious one which many of us may make where we confuse our family role for self or job role for self.
He does have an emptiness...that people allude to...that I have experienced with certain type 3w4s...it is as if they are fully non-resistant yet there.
In the end it comes down to how we see these things. It's not a science with measurable tests and principles of falsifiability. But at least you aren't talking about holiness or Being itself.
quote:
Almaas can talk about Being itself. I think that he is simply talking about his own experiences; he made it all up and decreed it to be the way things are. All philosophers do this...but at this point I think we should be onto their game.
Definitely...there is Almaas's own experience...though to be fair to him...he is teaching how to access (open to) such experience for yourself...not how to have his experiences. The nature of this work is such that you simply have to open to what presents. Now, you can say that the techniques that allow such opening...are somehow imitative...and I do agree...techniques such as grounding...breathing...chanting...these are all ways to allow a level of personal attunement...to open to such experiences. Beyond this...to greater or lesser degree based on how people do their own work they may adopt his thinking...temporarily or as a placeholder...until they have experiences themselves that would allow them to speak of certain terrains. Why I use Almaas's work is because I believe he is faithfully offering his experiences and his learning in his writing...and I can do with that what I will...sometimes it is something to contrast...sometimes it something that allows me to know that something else that I am finding painful to experience even with the opening...is part of how this unfolds. I've used the writing of Rumi in a similar manner...I feel spoken to directly through the writing...when I am digesting some experiences where I don't really have a point of reference otherwise....
Good enough. Whatever gets you through the night.
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 5:22:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
In the end it comes down to how we see these things. It's not a science with measurable tests and principles of falsifiability.
I'll say. But even these rather unscientific types can be used effectively if one is simple and parsimonious in theorizing.
quote:
Originally posted by marie
From, my pov, Obama doesn't reside in Being...so, if we are to work within the system of Enneagram fixations, we have to look for where he is fixated, where his compulsions are. Does he compulsively choose image even at the expense of substance? Or does he compulsively seek to mediate disputes in order to feel at peace? Personally, I see more of the latter if we are talking in terms of compulsions. (I do see the Enneagram of personality as describing compulsions/fixations, not personality in its entirety.) I understand that there are some people who see more of the former in Obama. We shall have to agree to disagree on that. But, at least we are playing the same game.
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Edited by - ptypes on 15 Feb 2009 5:26:27 PM |
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The Enneagram Institute
Administrator
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 5:52:56 PM
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Everyone,
Since there seems to be some confusion by what we mean by "the Missing Piece" which is part of Riso-Hudson Enneagram theory (and still is probably not known more widely), here it is:
quote:
Each Type’s “Missing Piece”
There is a paradoxical and exciting element to the structure of the Enneagram that is best considered after the types are well understood—but which is a key to rapid growth with this system.
We have discovered that the healthy Levels, especially Level 1, of the type in the Direction of Disintegration indicate what our type most needs for our personal development. Under normal circumstances, we tend to act out in the Direction of Disintegration because we unconsciously know that what we need for our healing and wholeness is symbolized by that type—even though we cannot yet fully integrate that quality into our personality structure. When we become more healthy, however, we also begin to be in the position to access and claim our most needed qualities—to seize the capstone of our psyche, as it were.
However, for a person in his or her average Levels, the qualities of the Missing Piece are too “ego alien” and thus cannot be owned without disrupting the person’s self-image in fundamental ways. None of the types can therefore claim its Missing Piece immediately or in a balanced way because they have not sufficiently laid the psychological groundwork for such a development. For example, a Seven most needs to learn the lessons of acceptance and self-discipline, but "cannot get there from here” if they move directly to One. A direct move to One results not in learning these higher lessons, but acting out in average to unhealthy behavior, which is why we consider this a move in the Seven’s “Direction of Disintegration.” Only after doing a considerable amount of transformational work, will the Seven be in a position to assimilate the healthy lessons of type One consistently.
For all the types it is highly instructive to take note of the Level 1 qualities of the type in the Direction of Disintegration for our type since it will reveal what we most need for our completion. We can then see our personality try to imitate and compensate for this quality—as well as observe ourselves in those authentic moments when we actually attain it. The following chart will make some of these qualities clearer.
The Characteristics of Each Type’s “Missing Piece”
Type One needs most to learn from Four to listen to and trust their Unconscious impulses & inspirations.
Type Two needs most to learn from Eight to recognize their own strength and to fully claim their presence in the world.
Type Three needs most to learn from Nine how to be instead of constantly doing, achieving, or performing.
Type Four needs most to learn from Two to love themselves and others unconditionally.
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
Type Six needs most to learn from Three to be inner directed and to have real self-esteem.
Type Seven needs most to learn from One to accept life as it is, and to live for a higher purpose.
Type Eight needs most to learn from Five humility and their true place in the larger scheme of things.
Type Nine needs most to learn from Six to rely on themselves and to grow in adversity.
Don discovered this new psychological and structural pattern in the Enneagram while writing Personality Types, but did not publish it (although he and Russ taught it to their students) until the revised edition of Understanding the Enneagram came out in 2000. You can find the above passage on pages 320-321.
Neiher Don nor Russ had any conscious notion that the Missing Piece correlated in some way to Almaas's work. We also have developed more insights into the nature of the Missing Piece for each type, so our current teaching is somewhat longer and more subtle than the above brief chart from UTE.
--
The Enneagram Institute |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 7:00:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
But life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent. |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 7:09:55 PM
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WORDS
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 7:13:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
But life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent.
I would agree with that.
On the other hand:
Type Eight needs most to learn from Five humility and their true place in the larger scheme of things.
It sure would be nice to teach those Eights some humility and to put them in their place. |
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 8:12:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
But life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent.
It could be, you are missing something ?
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 8:54:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
But life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent.
I would agree with that.
On the other hand:
Type Eight needs most to learn from Five humility and their true place in the larger scheme of things.
It sure would be nice to teach those Eights some humility and to put them in their place.
LOL! @ both.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 9:51:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
But life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent.
I would agree with that.
On the other hand:
Type Eight needs most to learn from Five humility and their true place in the larger scheme of things.
It sure would be nice to teach those Eights some humility and to put them in their place.
No doubt, Marie, no doubt.
Do you see, however, a deeper pattern how Eights are the living proof, the ac-tors of the Fives' perception that life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent?
Indeed life has moments of joy and the universe presents evidence of benevolence. However we are all, more often than not,subject to a life full of strife and objects of violation, universal and individual.
If Eights did not have a direct experience of life's sadness and the universal violation of our innocence, our essence, what is pure and sacred in us, they would not be made to feel small and humiliated and would naturally know their place and significance, which is in fact, true humility.
Perhaps what you refer to opaque in your post above is not due to a lack of spirituality on your part.
It may well be opaque because it may not be an acurate description our spiritual reality in this present moment .
Of course if you take away the disfunctional world system we have to live in and you dig deep enough, this palnet and our bodies were designed for life to be nothing short of joy and ecstasy, and under ideal circumstances the universe is running in order and should unfold itself benevolently.
Unfortunately there has been a fall, and with that fall:
There has been an impermanence: E9
There has been a deficiency: E1
There has been a violation: E8
There has been a humiliation: E2
There has been a devaluation: E3
There has been a disfiguration: E4
There has been a dissintegration:E6
There has been an incapacity: E5
There has been a deprivation: E7
At least from the channels of my television, the fears of all the types are real and represent the present human condition of our spiritual reality. Knowing, accessing and sustaining "moments" of freedom does not change the fact that our loss and separation from our spiritual ideal is, at present, still our spiritual reality.
Otherwise why would we need daily spiritual practices, and extensive "work" to repeatedly remove our shackles?
We may be able to transcend ego and taste our freedom but show me the man who has cut off his shackles and has walked on this earth a free man whose joyfull life was respected and protected by the benevolent forces that affect the universe.
Given Obama's scriptural/spiritual interests he may well be aware of this reality of slavery, not only of the black race but of the fact that there is only one race : The human race. And according to scriptural knowledge, as a race, we are all sold into slavery to "sin", we are not only in want of a "missing piece" but where are just totaly "missing the point".
If Obama is coming from a scriptural awakening and that force is also driving him then he may well be an awakened Nine ( or a Nine who thinks he is answering a divine call ) who has found the courage to merge his will with the Divine Will to bring some benevolence as a balancing act with the malevolent acts of the previous administration.
I am not saying Bush was evil and Obama is good but that it has been basically a balancing act between the two forces and that is why I said the Universe is not benevolent. The Universe is a free arena at the moment. And there are those who believe it is their calling to act as a benevolent force to counteract the forces of evil.
Obama may well be a Nine on a scriptural mission.
He may or may not know the enneagram but he does seem to know scripture.
*If he is a Three, he may well be on a mission to have his own book writen on the Bible Second Edition.
*I'm joking* - HA! |
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
2670 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 10:51:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
Focusing in on this quote: 7s are realistic when healthy (and the healthy part of 7 would be the missing piece of 5, wouldn't it?). Would something along these lines work better as a generality?:
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life has positives, and that the universe isn't malevolent.
I don't like my phrasing. It seems a little odd, but something along those lines maybe?
______________________________________
Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity! |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 10:53:24 PM
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There has been an impermanence: E9
There has been a deficiency: E1
There has been a violation: E8
There has been a humiliation: E2
There has been a devaluation: E3
There has been a disfiguration: E4
There has been a disintegration:E6
There has been an incapacity: E5
There has been a deprivation: E7
I love the sacred, tonal quality of this.
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 10:59:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
Do you see, however, a deeper pattern how Eights are the living proof, the ac-tors of the Fives' perception that life is not a joy and the universe is not benevolent?
Indeed life has moments of joy and the universe presents evidence of benevolence. However we are all, more often than not,subject to a life full of strife and objects of violation, universal and individual.
If Eights did not have a direct experience of life's sadness and the universal violation of our innocence, our essence, what is pure and sacred in us, they would not be made to feel small and humiliated and would naturally know their place and significance, which is in fact, true humility.
I do often see a sort of innocence in Eights. You can see it in their eyes. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 11:26:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
There has been an impermanence: E9
There has been a deficiency: E1
There has been a violation: E8
There has been a humiliation: E2
There has been a devaluation: E3
There has been a disfiguration: E4
There has been a disintegration:E6
There has been an incapacity: E5
There has been a deprivation: E7
I love the sacred, tonal quality of this.
Yes.
********* / *
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~lee~
Member
USA
7144 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 12:12:53 AM
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| The way I'd put it is that type 5 can learn from 7 that life has moments of spontaneous joy and it's okay to let oneself truly enjoy and appreciate them when they occur. |
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shakti
Member
USA
7844 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 02:12:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Neiher Don nor Russ had any conscious notion that the Missing Piece correlated in some way to Almaas's work. We also have developed more insights into the nature of the Missing Piece for each type, so our current teaching is somewhat longer and more subtle than the above brief chart from UTE.
Thanks for posting the material. I'm not sure there is directly.
Missing piece in the RH work seems to be that capacity for access to high (level 1_ quality in the direction of disintegration. This seems to me an original contribution that I have not seen mentioned anywhere else.
Soul child as I understand it (and I first learned of this through bear's posts) is a type of blindspot we have around our true capacity to embody the type in our direction of integration. So, for 5 it can be the sense that I am incapable and not strong...even if others perceive this to not be the case in at least some instances...the 5 self-image would stay faithful to the version that has this lack. bear had posted this in the context of Sandra Maitri's work. Though I am not sure if Maitri is the originator or the one who has expanded and made the teaching accessible.
In Facets of Unity, my perception was that Almaas shows how personality is a type of systematic reactivity to non-contact with the Holy Ideas of each point. This idea I think is not unique to Almaas, though the book is a truly a unique contribution and treatment...through which it is possible to have an experience of the Holy Ideas.
From various discussions with bear (I am not a Ridhwan School student) my understanding is that certain essential qualities are associated with certain points on the Ennegram. This is idea that made sense to me that each type overuses some natural aspect or capacity independent of any teaching...but what I took away from conversations with bear is that that similar to how holy ideas and passions are different takes, that there is another one that involves personality/ego attempting to act as if it is an essential quality. In the Holy Idea version it is a compensation for absence...in this way of viewing things...it is as if personality is a stand in for presence. Point being associated with point 4, pearl with point 3, brilliancy with point 1, Living Daylight with point 9 and so on.
I don't know if there's more of a correlation...except for whatever crossover we might each choose to make in a personal way (not attributing this to particular teachers or teachings)...for example...point 7 - level 1 experience in RH is joy which could correspond to the presence of the yellow latifa for example. If one knows the presence of the latter, it can make a difference, otherwise it probably does not add much. Similar to knowing something about or having the experience of the point making a difference in understanding type 4. To me, it is another way of saying what the personality tries to be, and through this trying, information that is unique to this incarnation in time and space are gathered even if the original effort at some point may become moot...eventually the incarnation-specific information may be in service to the essential presence. I don't know if there is any truth to this way of seeing things and it might be a personally idiosyncratic approach on my part...but to me I am seeing more of a correlation of Obama's life being in relationship to the pearl than about being a stand in or in relationship to Living Daylight...though of course, living daylight to some extent is essential to all types to engage in the spiritual journey. From my vantage point, his life has an attention given to the layered accretion of who he is in the world...it is this zone of attention...that makes me correlate it to the pearl...and to type 3 more than 9. Though again, the pearl is not unique to type 3, even if type 3 tends to give attention on this zone of consciousness. |
Edited by - shakti on 16 Feb 2009 05:42:29 AM |
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shakti
Member
USA
7844 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 02:24:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
I know Threes that would never do a victory lap either. I'm intentionally pushing forward overt caricatures to place Obama next to....to then observe the subsequent discord or accord.
You've snagged at least one fish with your hook. Bravo!
quote:
The photos of him upon watching his own victory for the presidency are like looking at a flat tire - it's just too far into 'energy flacidity' at the moment of the 'big win' - again, the biggest outer win possible on Planet Earth. My point is that, if we're straddling the line between 9 and 3 (trying to decide between the two), that particular event (alone) shows a reaction that was at very least "just over the line" into 9-ness. [And I'm not saying that the one event should be the deciding factor.]
Sure. You may have a point here. I perceived it as someone campaigning for a chance at being able to make a difference. The win was the means. Not the end. It seems that he has not taken what was given to him lightly...though he does have a sense for the epic nature of the role he has found himself cast in...and this is why I again see 3w4. |
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Cory
Member
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 03:54:14 AM
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Habenero:
I think people voted for him because he ran against someone who represented the failed policies of the previous administration. Just changing the course of this country in a slightly positive direction is “change” and “hope” enough compared to what we had. He’s already manifested many of the things he’s promised after he got elected. So the “just to get elected” thing isn’t holding up. He ran on a positive message because it was more effective than just downing the opposition (and he had plenty of reason to). It was smart in the sense that people are more motivated towards something positive than motivated to act against something negative. This is particularly true for those who have opted out of the political system. (i.e. non voters). These are the people he targeted and who got him elected. If this is opportunistic then way to go Obama!!!! That people are projecting blind optimism, unicorns, and rainbows just because he refused to get down in the mud is really an interesting commentary on how screwed up our campaigning process has become.
Habenero, you have an excellent point on how he was the antithesis to the Bush Doctrine that got him elected. People saw him as "the farthest thing from Bush". In fact, I would go as far as to say the only reason Obama is president right now is BECAUSE of Bush. If we would've elected Kerry in 04, he wouldn't have had the clout to have gotten elected. So definitely, him being the "Anti-Bush" got him elected.
Okay, as for "manifesting the many things", the guy's been in office about a month. He hasn't been manifesting much, but to his credit, so far he is holding up his promises, so maybe you're right on that.
I still think he is opportunistic, however. He saw what needed to be done. He saw the apathy and depression of America after 8 years of Bush. So he offered a VISION. A world of change and hope. Really, he didn't HAVE to be negative towards the Old Bush world since everyone was already knew what it was, and there was no need to point it out. What he did was promise people something NEW. He played upon people's hopes to get elected. And you know what, he might just try his best to fulfill his promises. He really will do his best to get problems solved, as best as he can. But, does that make him a 9? No, rather he is a 3. The ultimate archetype of the Three in media...THE HERO. I wasn't trying to say that just because Obama was elected he would change his ways and become narcissitic and selfish, but rather that simply he used his personality style to get elected.
I don’t think any single person can change this country around or solve our problems. I’m not sure if President Obama made that promise either. In fact, I think he has challenged the people of the United States of America to take some active ownership of the problems we face. If I have skepticism about President Obama, it’s not due to his abilities, but rather the limitations of our political system which is a systemic problem larger than any one single subcomponent.
I agree with you, it IS our political system. However, I'm saying most of America doesn't understand that. They think he can just come in and clean things up like that Jimmy Stewart movie Mr. Smith Goes To Washington.
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lilalove:
I reading R & H... they seem to think 3w4's get moody.
The best someone can find for that is when Obama wings out at 1.
Obama gets a little 1ish... you can feel his indignation... that's the best he can do to sound "tough". Obama is never cold steely edged.. or emotionally moody.. even a little bit. lol
I feel stupid for not saying this earlier, but I really got a One-ish vibe about him. Actually either One or Three would fit him better than Nine. And you're right, he is NEVER even close to emotionally moody. On the MB types he is a real ENTJ in my eyes.
Yes, yes... they try to claim level 5 for Obama to paint his natural - PT p345 "9w1's- conspicuous calmness and cool rational self-control" as type 3 level 5 detachment... but I'm married to a 3.. and I'm very well aware of type 3 detachment found when they start to compartmentalize things they don't want to think to deeply about.. and it is not like Obama's thoughtful, mellow, rational calm. Not even a little bit.
Well Obama doesn't strike me as an "unhealthy" or "average" person one bit. I have no idea why anybody would say Obama is Level 5! The guy just got elected President, you have to be pretty damn well healthy and functioning for that! Still, with what you say, makes me really consider 1 as his type even more!
dfgray44
'Unicorns and rainbows' (as an emanation/vibe from the zeitgeist ether) is pure 9. You wouldn't even catch a faint whiff of that accent in the air hovering around a 3w4.
Well, THAT was my particular exaggeration of Obama....he never said anything about Unicorns and Rainbows in his speeches. Please excuse my natural Sixish tendency to blow things out of proportion, thanks. You are confusing the real Obama for my caricature of Obama.
But, okay, realistically, let's look at what Obama promised: new jobs, a better America, health care for all, withdrawing from Iraq (but into Afghanistan instead...but a smart move I agree with), a complete change from the 8 years of Bush, etc. Some of it's impractical and idealistic, the other realistic and practical. Nothing Ninish about it at all...more like the thought patterns of a highly developed Three.
Again, the people that are claiming 3 would do better to look at a 2-wing. Obama's got too much sunlight around him to hold the darker colors of 3w4.
You have a great point here. I considered 3w4 because of the slightly introverted, cool and controlled vibe he gets but I suspect you might be right with this. In fact, I don't see anything 4ish about him at all. 3w2 would be a good type.
Thank you all for your input. I don't think 3w4 is the right type for him. I would consider 3w2 or 1, but I don't think 3w4 best describes him. Still, I DO NOT think he is a Nine. :)
 
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 07:12:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anne
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
I know Threes that would never do a victory lap either. I'm intentionally pushing forward overt caricatures to place Obama next to....to then observe the subsequent discord or accord.
You've snagged at least one fish with your hook. Bravo!
I didn't flesh out my statement well enough there - what I meant was that we might observe Obama's accord or discord, as a vibe, when placed next to the vibe of a 3-esque caricature.
quote:
The photos of him upon watching his own victory for the presidency are like looking at a flat tire - it's just too far into 'energy flacidity' at the moment of the 'big win' - again, the biggest outer win possible on Planet Earth. My point is that, if we're straddling the line between 9 and 3 (trying to decide between the two), that particular event (alone) shows a reaction that was at very least "just over the line" into 9-ness. [And I'm not saying that the one event should be the deciding factor.]
Sure. You may have a point here. I perceived it as someone campaigning for a chance at being able to make a difference. The win was the means. Not the end. It seems that he has not taken what was given to him lightly...though he does have a sense for the epic nature of the role he has found himself cast in...and this is why I again see 3w4.
I see the opposite - a 9 is more likely to have a sense of reward for being a pawn of the broad brush of history. [Lincoln and Reagan showed many signs of this.] 'Participation', in the large idealistic abstract of the word, is a strong pull for 9s - the drop that merges with the forward-rushing river. Whereas, a 3, especially a 4-winger, is more likely to think of personal achievement - unless strongly going toward 6 (in integration), in which case, 'participation' is also spurred. I understand that these arguments depend on health levels - I see Obama consistently at Levels 3 and 4, healthwise.
One prediction that'll help with the distinction between 3 and 9 in Obama: We're going to continue to see him come under attack for trying to get everyone to 'get along' at times when getting along is not the more important thing to get done.
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 1:16:39 PM
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9w1 - The Tortoise; slow, deliberative: Lincoln, Obama
3w4 - The Hare; quick, decisive: Truman, Carter
"Obama slows down troop boost decision"
"President Barack Obama is refusing to be rushed into his first decision to send troops into combat, an early sign he may be more independent-minded than U.S. military leaders expected.
"The new president's methodical decision-making offers an early insight into how the new commander in chief will approach the war in Afghanistan and has surprised some Pentagon officials, who had predicted repeatedly in the past two weeks that Obama would decide within days on additional forces, only to find the White House taking more time."
"Rather than sign off quickly on all or part of a long-standing Pentagon request for three Army combat brigades and Marine units, totaling over 10,000 troops, Obama and his aides are questioning the timetable, the mission and even the composition of the new forces, officials familiar with the deliberations said."
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18888.html |
Edited by - ptypes on 16 Feb 2009 1:19:56 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 1:51:07 PM
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"The Tortoise"
"The Hare"
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Edited by - ptypes on 17 Feb 2009 4:43:24 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2009 : 2:18:21 PM
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| This may be somewhat controversial because it casts some doubt on the consistency of the Type 3 construct and differs from conventional correlations of Type 9 with the MBTI, but I think the reason Obama seems more like a 3w2 than a 3w4 is that the 9w1 and 3w2 share the temperament dimension represented by the MBTI "S". The 3w4 is an "N" temperament. I follow Keirsey in thinking that "S" and "N" represent the greatest temperament divide. |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
