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Feral Feline
Member
United Kingdom
2617 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 12:59:20 PM
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I amended my last post to make the meaning clearer:
"He may well do brilliantly (and I hope so for all our sakes), but I don't think people should lose their critical faculties over the man. That's my point."
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 1:19:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
Wasn't the Buddha's first noble truth that life is permeated by suffering? He was reputedly a Five. (I believe he was a Five at any rate.) Guess he was missing a piece. Didn't get to enough weekend seminars, I guess.
He could have been a Nine; they don't like to feel uncomfortable, especially the 9w8s. |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 1:31:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/sometimes-a-president-is-just-a-president/?scp=5&sq=warner&st=cse
The continuing hysteria is worrying. And sad.
(There are many different ways to suffer from an exaggerated perception.)
A problem for the EI's typing? Obama is being precieved as identifying with the social role of "Nobody Special" rather than "The Best" (which Jimmy Carter identified himself with).
From the Warner article:
"""This is the first president I've known who looks, talks and acts like a peer,"¯ is how one Washington man explained it to me. "Notwithstanding his somewhat exotic life story, I feel like I understand what he's like and where he's coming from. And despite his incredible achievements, he still seems like a lot of people I know. If you stopped the clock in 2004, in fact, or maybe a couple of years earlier, he'd feel roughly like a peer in terms of accomplishments, too. Of course I know nobody with his political gifts, speaking skills and confidence, and he's also a gifted writer and thinker. But I feel like one or two different turns for Obama or me and he could have been someone my friends and I wouldn't think it extraordinary to have in our circle."¯"
From the EI of Ohio:
"EXERCISE: Find your type in the list below that identifies the Social Role of each Enneagram type. The Social Role is identified at Level 4, the level of imbalance , at which the ego's drives begin to block connection with Being and we identify ourselves only as personality. Identification with the Social Role is a tip-off that we are losing awareness and moving into unconscious patterns of behavior and attitude, even though level 4 is the healthiest level of average functioning. Average means that most people are in these levels most of the time, so we are likely to find ourselves identified with the Social Role frequently. For many people, it is an awakening to discover there is something more to life than the Social Role.
Type One - “ The Educator
Type Two - “ The Special Friend
Type Three - “ The Best
Type Four - “ The Mysterious One, The Special Case
Type Five - “ The Expert
Type Six - “ The Stalwart
Type Seven - “The Energizer
Type Eight - “ The Rock
Type Nine - “ Nobody Special"
http://enneagram-ohio.com/lifestories-issue9.htm
So, one has to decide for themselves: is Obama a Nine and identifying himself as nobody special; or is he a Three, and just acting like he's nobody special; or is he a Three and has really become nobody special through reaching Being and perfection so that he has become the best of type Nine.
But if he's in Being why would he be identifying with the social role of Nine.
I'm confused. |
Edited by - ptypes on 18 Feb 2009 2:41:31 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 1:34:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by marie
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
Wasn't the Buddha's first noble truth that life is permeated by suffering? He was reputedly a Five. (I believe he was a Five at any rate.) Guess he was missing a piece. Didn't get to enough weekend seminars, I guess.
He could have been a Nine; they don't like to feel uncomfortable, especially the 9w8s.
His philosophy is a bit cold to be from type Nine imo...I really think he was a Five; if not that, then a One of some sort.
All we are is a result of all we have thought. |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 2:45:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Type Five needs most to learn from Seven that life is a joy and that the universe is benevolent.
Wasn't the Buddha's first noble truth that life is permeated by suffering?
Exactly. |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 2:52:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
But if he's in Being why would he be identifying with the social role of Nine.
I'm confused.
Because when you are touched by being that should give you the clarity to see your true place in the larger scheme of things.
But that is the humility of the Five, the missing piece of the Eight.
So go figure.  |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 3:25:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
I felt entirely neutral about Obama when I first saw him. But then, apart from objecting to Tony Blair and the abomination that was the Iraq War, I'm not a political animal. Yet the more I watched Obama and read "Dreams from my Father", the more an alarm bell went off in my head.
I think he's a consummate politician; but I also think he's profoundly narcissistic.
He may well do brilliantly (and I hope so for all our sakes), but I don't think people should lose their critical faculties over the man. That's my point.
Okay, i'm off.
That's your discernment... which I have always found rather lacking in regards to Obama, no offence. The cases you make are always so surface and fear based.
I have faced 3w4 straight on for Obama on this thread and made a far better case for it than most, imo... and it still fell short.
3w4 does not fit because Obama's lack of narcissistic traits as a leader. Do you think Bill, Carter or Blair would have put the person who ripped them apart and clearly intimidated them, many times, in the top position of SOS. No. I think not. Obama was not forced to pick Hillary to win. He won. He picked Hillary because she has something he knows he lacks. She has sharp teeth behind the smile. Narcissistic's tend to be clueless in regards to what they lack. They block it out. They devalue others to make themselves seem bigger. They deny their short falls by nature. They choose people who support their ego defences. They are not "big" enough to admit they lack. they are too afraid of failure to openly admit flaws. Something Obama does by nature.
Obama also does not hold a grudge against people that hurt his ego. Even when people go after his ego and score mass points against it in the public eye again and again. Name me a single narcissistic 3 that would not go to low average health under that kind of non-stop onslaught but instead rise above it and embrace the truth of some of it. The case for profoundly narcissistic falls apart by Obama repeated actions.
His humility is what is most remarkable for a man in his place.
Obama's book... writing a book about himself between 15-21 the most narcissistic and lost time in a person's identity development, which is why R & H have stressed not typing people in that age group, was remarkable. The ugly picture's painted of Obama in his 'tell all' book is in-its-self unheard of if we look at narcissistic type 3 politicians. They cover that [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] up and compartmentalize it and detach from it so they don't have to think about it. Never happend! The perfect hero son has never been anything but perfect! The kind of truth Obama owned up to in his book is like kryptonite to narcissistic 3's. There is so much damn ego vulnerability in it. Obama dove right in.. and took himself to task like a one. Obama has an Honest Abe compulsion that goes against the grain of any 3 I've known. I have thought about a large 4 wing that forced authenticity.. but it would take one hell of a 4 wing.. and that would mean lots of moodiness. Something Obama lacks.
Obama has the natural temperament of a 9w1.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 18 Feb 2009 7:15:54 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 3:47:30 PM
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Seems to me that President Obama's management style has a lot in common with Ronald Reagan's style, and is very much what one would expect of a Nine, and not at all what one would expect from a Three.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/02/obamas_governing_style.html
"Obama's Governing Style"
"Whatever the reason, this level of presidential detachment from high policy decision making is dangerous in a White House that has so many czars and other senior players (the West Wing staff is reputed to be more than 130 -- about double the usual number) combined with emissaries and strong-willed Cabinet secretaries. It may well lead to what has been called (regarding another country's government) "the immanent structurelessness to the running of the state." |
Edited by - ptypes on 18 Feb 2009 3:51:02 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 4:06:31 PM
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"Mr. Reagan showed little appetite for power, even less for the messy detail of politics. He joked about his work habits. ''It's true hard work never killed anybody,'' he said in 1987. ''But I figure, why take the chance?'' His detachment from the day-to-day business of government was seductive for a nation that had tired of watching Mr. Carter micromanage the White House."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D01E4DE1E31F934A35755C0A9629C8B63 |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 4:13:34 PM
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Hello Bear,
quote:
Originally posted by bear
I was not attempting to explain R/H's missing piece theory. That said, I do think that reading the EI's description of each of the things the types most need to access, it's very easy to make the correlations to those aspects (you could do it with the Holy Ideas as well).
In theory.
quote:
For example, in the arrows article on this site:
[i]Fives may have glimpses of Level 1 or 2 of the Seven, but can seldom maintain this perspective of joyful gratitude for existence. It is too ego-alien to the Five's basic worldview.
But in practice, I respectfully disagree.
In order to be able to even glimpse at level 1, a Five would have to have attained some degree of humility and some recognition of their true place in the greater arena of life, would you not agree?
Being that intellectual ability has an assigned value of superiority in the world we live in, for a Five that has found humility, why is that not considered an expression of joyful gratitude?
I can speak from experience that I can't display humility when I don't feel grateful, and I certainly wouldn't know my true place in universe if I hadn't experienced it's benevolence and hadn't been touched by life's moments of joy.
We must be living in a parallel universe where humility and joyful gratitute for existence are not intermutual expressions. Two sides of the same coin. Same value, different faces. How are they separate pieces that if I have the one then I must be missing the other?
Missing Piece Theory, in vitro, I understand, but in practice don't you think there is more to it?
Or less?
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 4:52:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
Seems to me that President Obama's management style has a lot in common with Ronald Reagan's style, and is very much what one would expect of a Nine, and not at all what one would expect from a Three.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/02/obamas_governing_style.html
"Obama's Governing Style"
"Whatever the reason, this level of presidential detachment from high policy decision making is dangerous in a White House that has so many czars and other senior players (the West Wing staff is reputed to be more than 130 -- about double the usual number) combined with emissaries and strong-willed Cabinet secretaries. It may well lead to what has been called (regarding another country's government) "the immanent structurelessness to the running of the state."
Yes, but is it not being said he is at higher health level than the other presidents?
And if he is a healthy Three that has access to his missing piece, then as the theory goes he has learned the lesson from Nine to "how to be instead of doing, accomplishing".
And if you link that with the Holly Ideas, isn't the Three "Holly Law ; Where we learn the universe is unfolding as it should and we don't have to do anything to achieve/earn value or make things happen"
..or somethink along those lines? ( I think I read this on the Understanding the Enneagram R&H book? Correct me if I am wrong )
Or is that a true sign of the "live and let live" attitude of the Nine?
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 5:22:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
Yes, but is it not being said he is at higher health level than the other presidents?
And if he is a healthy Three that has access to his missing piece, then as the theory goes he has learned the lesson from Nine to "how to be instead of doing, accomplishing".
And if you link that with the Holly Ideas, isn't the Three "Holly Law ; Where we learn the universe is unfolding as it should and we don't have to do anything to achieve/earn value or make things happen"
..or somethink along those lines? ( I think I read this on the Understanding the Enneagram R&H book? Correct me if I am wrong )
Or is that a true sign of the "live and let live" attitude of the Nine?
I belong to a Stoic email list and the question has come up which personality type is most attracted to Stoicism.
I think that the Serious istj 9w1 type is the most naturally stoic type, or type of temperament. I believe that Marcus Aurelius was this type.
The idea that the world is unfolding exactly as it should be is one of, if not the, fundamental Stoic principles. |
Edited by - ptypes on 18 Feb 2009 5:25:57 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 6:09:48 PM
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David Gergen the political consultant and presidential adviser during the administrations of Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton is always comparing Obama to Reagan. He does not think Obama is anything like Bill Clinton who he knows so well. It's always Reagan. He thinks Obama is like Reagan but has something Reagan lacked. He describes a 1 wing and healthy awake personality when he tries to define it.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 6:51:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
David Gergen the political consultant and presidential adviser during the administrations of Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton is always comparing Obama to Reagan. He does not think Obama is anything like Bill Clinton who he knows so well. It's always Reagan. He thinks Obama is like Reagan but has something Reagan lacked. He describes a 1 wing and healthy awake personality when he tries to define it.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8
I just love David Gergen...he gives me a good Daddy fix. Do you see him as a Nine with One? |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 6:53:25 PM
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| Yes, 9w1. I love him too. Such a good daddy. I think he has 5w6 in his trifix... maybe sp6w5. What do you think his heart type is? |
Edited by - lilalove on 18 Feb 2009 6:55:33 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:03:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
Yes, 9w1. I love him too. Such a good daddy. I think he has 5w6 in his trifix... maybe sp6w5. What do you think his heart type is?
I agree he has some of that borderline Five/Six thing going on for the head fixation. The heart fix is the hard one. Two with One maybe. |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:09:41 PM
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2w1 was all I could come up with also. lol
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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jase
Member
USA
3488 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:16:15 PM
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quote:
although, come to think of it, I have also heard him compared to the anti-Christ.
a gathering of type 3 politicians walk into a seminar to learn how to win elections, taught by the false prophet.
3s: hello master, we have read your books. it is an honor. so how do we win our campaigns, sir?
fp: you must emulate level 1 of health, as if you have obtained your missing piece. they will think you are 9s, and everybody loves 9s.
3s: okay, got it!
fp: now please deposit the modest fee (your souls) at reception, and good luck to each of you.
"false nines will appear and display great humility and wonders to deceive, if possible, even their liberal base."
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:22:55 PM
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False 9's will claim great humility but fail to display it in matters of substance, grasshopper.
Also, paranoia will destroy ya.
ect, ect.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 18 Feb 2009 7:33:34 PM |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:43:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
.. but it would take one hell of a 4 wing.. and that would mean lots of moodiness.
lol!
Alas, alas, my dearest lila!..
Not if that gigantic 4 wing grabbed his 3 little gluts and swooshed him around to point 2 where he would have landed to learn the lesson "to love himself and others unconditionally".
No moodiness there. Nothing missing. 
**..but then how does he get around to ground 3 to move to point 9 now that he is at point 2 and must by proxy go to point 8 which would explain the humility you mentioned but that's only after he goes down to point Five...**
..now you are fueling my imagination..my head keeps going around and around that missing piece wheel..
..this is shattering my clarity..I must abort this mission  |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:51:39 PM
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Take it from a 6... over thinking is not the answer. Fear installing based on pure conjecter is another loser. Both lead to the same place in the end. A hole full of monsters in mask.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 18 Feb 2009 9:34:29 PM |
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 7:56:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by Anastacia Lacrosse
Yes, but is it not being said he is at higher health level than the other presidents?
And if he is a healthy Three that has access to his missing piece, then as the theory goes he has learned the lesson from Nine to "how to be instead of doing, accomplishing".
And if you link that with the Holly Ideas, isn't the Three "Holly Law ; Where we learn the universe is unfolding as it should and we don't have to do anything to achieve/earn value or make things happen"
..or somethink along those lines? ( I think I read this on the Understanding the Enneagram R&H book? Correct me if I am wrong )
Or is that a true sign of the "live and let live" attitude of the Nine?
I belong to a Stoic email list and the question has come up which personality type is most attracted to Stoicism.
I think that the Serious istj 9w1 type is the most naturally stoic type, or type of temperament. I believe that Marcus Aurelius was this type.
The idea that the world is unfolding exactly as it should be is one of, if not the, fundamental Stoic principles.
It makes sense.
Aha! But is your Stoic Movement Holy or Unholy?
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Goodnight America! ( It's 1am in England...shame, I'm in a *delightful* mood tonight!) |
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Habanero
Member
1197 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 8:47:56 PM
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I haven’t quite finished “Dreams from My Father” so I probably shouldn’t speak so soon. But so far, I do not see evidence of narcissism in the book. I do see three-ish stuff. (I don’t equate narcissism with point 3 anyway). Obama does seem to divide his actions into the very binary categories of success versus failure. And he does have a big fear of failure.
During his community organizing days, a colleague confronts him with his “need to prove something” and it hints at his self worth hinging on how successful he is. “That’s okay Obama, we love you anyway. Jesus loves you.” (paraphrasing here because I don’t have the book with me). I actually found myself thinking this way before it was echoed by another character. Love is not based on condition of performance.
It’s true that narcissists think they are capable of doing much more than they really are, and one can argue that this fits for Obama. Threes (particularly 4 wing) get a big high out of getting in over their heads and then pulling it off. Threes can be “counter” (passioned?) about shame the way sixes are counterphobic about fear.
Another interesting thing I noticed about Obama in the book, is that his superego seems to really smack down his “inner poser.” Not sure if that is indicative of soul child 3 in a Nine, or a very self aware, healthy 3. Either way, it’s self-deprecating. Not what I’d expect from a narcissist.
I also see the family hero stuff. His mother’s well meaning attempt to instill pride in Obama’s heritage may have inadvertently left the young child thinking that he had to meet some awfully high expectations. I also see some point One themes in respect to his father. If I may indulge in archetypal comparisons, we see the influence of a unknown father’s role and the ambivalence of legacy, mission, and morality play out in characters such as Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and Alyosha Karamazov. Arguably, none of them are 3’s.
Obama doesn’t have the downside of narcissism. For one, narcissists tend to lack empathy. They can’t understand where other people are coming from, and that’s a big cause for the social maladjustment seen in these people. If there is one thing I got from that book, and it speaks so loudly to me, is that Obama has incredible empathy and insight into other people’s feelings and motivations. One trait of point 9 (even the average ones) is the ability to efface one’s ego and place oneself in another’s skin. Obama does this consistently and early on in his life.
Again, I do see the 3 stuff. And I see 9 stuff. And I see a lot of stuff that overlaps. I reserve the right to change my mind completely once I finish the book. (I'm hoping for a big narcissistic Type 3 ending...)
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Edited by - Habanero on 18 Feb 2009 8:59:43 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 9:17:19 PM
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The contrast between the Obama of the book and Obama today is striking “He was grounded, comfortable in his own skin, knew who he was, where he came from, why he believed things,” Kenneth Mack, a friend of Obama’s from Harvard and now a professor there, says. “When I read the book, I was surprised—the confusion and the anger that he described, maybe they were there below the surface, but they were not manifest at all.” Asked about this, Obama says, “You know, what puzzles me is why people are puzzled by that. That angry character lasts from the time I was fifteen to the time I was twenty-one or so. I guess my explanation is I was an adolescent male with a lot of hormones and an admittedly complicated upbringing. But that wasn’t my natural temperament. And the book doesn’t describe my entire life. I could have written an entirely different book, about the joys of basketball and what it’s like to bodysurf as the sun’s going down on a sandy beach.”
you know... Obama was full of teenage angst. Reminded me of Harry Potter book 5.
I did not see any real narcissism in the book either, Habanero. And to read profound narcissism.. that almost seems a joke.
Obama does have some 3ish issues. Enough for pause. And some of those issues look 1ish.
I have made the case for 3w4.. but it rings false once taken apart a bit.
And Obama's actions after becoming president point strongly to 9w1.
PT. page 115
Average Threes are usually not good leaders because they lack personal vision, have few strongly held values, and little empathy for others.
Obama has the same strong value system today as he held at the age of 22 onward. It is unmoving and steadfast. Obama is unchanging. It's rather remarkable in and of its self. All his actions as a leader to date back up his value system and long held personal vision.
PT page 100,
Narcissist care principally about themselves. They remain intensely self-centered, with little ability to empathize with anyone else's feelings or needs.
Of course their narcissism puts them in constant conflict with people. Because they believe so much in their superiority.
So, 3 Obama may be.. never say never... but it's not because he is a narcissist. People who read Narcissism into Obama might have a big ugly duckling chip on their shoulder and their envy may blind them a bit.
I tend to think our reactions to others tell us more about ourselves than anything else.
I had some negative reactions to Hillary. I almost always have a negative reaction to 1w2's. I'm sure their is a lesson in it for me.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 19 Feb 2009 12:47:08 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 9:36:14 PM
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Jase is a pimp. He never could've out-fought Santino. But I didn't know until this day that it was Barzini all along....
********* / *
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Topic |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
