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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 12:43:10 PM
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I do'nt agree, Marie, y're not miles away from VO.
Au contraire, if i may say so, i am miles away from Sixishwoman.
To give another example : Kali and Dfgray as 9w1's are more than miles away.
from a very cold station: greetings...
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bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 12:07:35 PM
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marie: He seems extremely focused, ambitious and awake to be Nine...and he's such a "winner."
Remember what I said about inertia? OK, maybe not. But you know what inertia means, I'm sure.
The presence of ambition in itself is no more indicative of Three than it is preclusive of Nine. In the EI's perspective upon typing Obama, the problem of motivation seems to be in a vague periphery at best, almost as though it were disposable. Theirs is one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on this forum.
My points regarding the problems of typing, especially those of typing high-profile celebrity politicians, seem to be flying over their heads. That's not supposed to happen. It's understandable for some people, but only when I've been familiar with the E longer than they have. If there are any young adolescents here, they were probably infants when I started studying it. But the Don has been studying it since I was an infant. He's an old-school E. Old-school E's have no business making newbie-league arguments.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 1:07:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
But the Don has been studying it since I was an infant. He's an old-school E. Old-school E's have no business making newbie-league arguments.
My guess is that the person writing on behalf of the EI is taking R&H's typings of the candidates as a starting point, and then putting things in his or her own words, instead of relaying detailed points from Don and Russ.
I'd be curious what R&H think about how this argument has been laid out on their behalf - both the content and the tone leave something to be desired. And the writer seems to have made a decision to be closed to some good points coming from the board, not to mention vids like this.
********* / *
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Anastacia Lacrosse
Member
United Kingdom
366 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 2:00:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
ptypes: I'm starting to think that the Institute doesn't think well enough of Nines. 
It's too easy to underestimate what they can do when they get going - the flip side of inertia.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ
I remember.
It was the your comment that prompted me to start posting.
Right or wrong, I thought you presented the best counter-arguments on this thread.
Are you Human?* |
Edited by - Anastacia Lacrosse on 27 Feb 2009 3:42:13 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 11:28:28 AM
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Many people here have said that they can type
others easier when they see them on a lower
level than on a higher level of health.
Ron |
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Feral Feline
Member
United Kingdom
2617 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 12:07:19 PM
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Posted by Marie:
"But he has that Ninish thing going on as well...very teflon."
For what it's worth, Tony Blair was known as "Teflon Tony"  .
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 12:42:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
Posted by Marie:
"But he has that Ninish thing going on as well...very teflon."
For what it's worth, Tony Blair was known as "Teflon Tony" .
They did countless skits over here where Bush got reelected because of the Iraq war and Tony lost reelection(stood down) because of the Iraq war. They made a point to point out how unteflon Tony was.
Names are easy. But will they turn out true. The term "Teflon Tony" turned out to be a joke. Not true. Even a little. He did the 3w4 kneejerk. Stands alone, even from his own party. They alienate.
Obama does the opposite. He shares and reaches out.
And that might mean he is a healthy 3.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about how 3's deal with all the envy others feel towards them. Not everyone loves a winner.
I think healthy 3's try to make others feel good about themselves so they will not hate the 3 for their success. They try to share in the success. It is no longer just about them. It's about success for everyone. The team. They find the line to high 6.
Obama seems to think of 'the team' as the American people. And not only American's. Obama is a big picture thinker.
Obama wants us to all stand up and do our best. Reach our full potential. Then give back because we will be able to. Like forming a chain.. hand to hand.. all pulling together.. to the next level in our evolution as a people.
Bush regressed under stress and our nation followed his lead down... down.
Obama is pulling up. And that is why people tag him with 'messiah'.
Not because Obama thinks he is God. But because he is pulling up.
Just seeing health in action is inspiring. We have been in a dark hole for a long time. Someone is taking the first steps out. It's dark and unknown. But we can see a spark of light at the end of the tunnel.. but we have to join hands and pull up together.
Obama could be a very rare and healthy 3. I could make it fit. Never say never.
He would just have to be almost freaky healthy because it is not only about him. It's about all the people. He is one of us.. a leader.. but he gives us his power. It is about our country and our world rising together.
I can make 9 fit also, with ease.
I personally think Obama is a very rare 9 and 3 mix. two fixations almost merged. He has kneejerk 9 reations in conflict.
I understand merged fixations are not accepted in enneagram literature.. but I think that "never" is a non-starter.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Feb 2009 2:34:11 PM |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 1:36:25 PM
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that's right. Blair stood down as prime minister not too long after because of his low approval ratings from the public and because the pressure from the Labour party for him to resign.
The skits were about Bush's over 50% approval rating in regards to the Iraq war when Blair was getting bashed by his people.
Bush went over sees to 'help' Tony and talk him up and it hurt Tony something awful. lol
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Feb 2009 2:23:36 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 2:37:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
I do'nt agree, Marie, y're not miles away from VO.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/3181612665_dbc195f907.jpg?v=0
But, I never said I was "miles away" from VO, especially her board persona (I haven't met her irl though and therefore reserve some judgment.) I said that I considered myself to be more dissimilar in terms of overall personality from many Fives, even those of the same type, wing etc., than from many people of other types. It's much more dramatic though if you include Fives with different wings and stackings. Leaving me out of it, carlos doesn't seem that much like cosmic dust, and yet I have no doubt that they are both Fives.
But I do agree that there seems to be vast differences between yourself and Sixishwoman. That only supports my point that there are vast differences within type. I am thinking that this may be even more pronounced in the 3, 6, 9 triad.
Greetings to you as well! |
Edited by - marie on 28 Feb 2009 2:54:54 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 2:39:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
marie: He seems extremely focused, ambitious and awake to be Nine...and he's such a "winner."
Remember what I said about inertia? OK, maybe not. But you know what inertia means, I'm sure.
The presence of ambition in itself is no more indicative of Three than it is preclusive of Nine.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ
I agree with this actually. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 2:41:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
Posted by Marie:
"But he has that Ninish thing going on as well...very teflon."
For what it's worth, Tony Blair was known as "Teflon Tony" .
That never made it to this side of the Atlantic. But the appellation "Bush's poodle" certainly did. My opinion is that anyone who is regularly called such a name is not teflon, even if some people mistakenly see him as such. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 2:51:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
I personally think Obama is a very rare 9 and 3 mix. two fixations almost merged. He has kneejerk 9 reations in conflict.
I understand merged fixations are not accepted in enneagram literature.. but I think that "never" is a non-starter.
Just in terms of preserving the system (assuming that we want to do that), it is more elegant to have Obama as a healthy Nine (one who seeks to establish peace and harmony actively), one who has successfully integrated to Three, than it is to see him as an average to healthy Three who has some peculiar relationship to type Nine.
Of course, this assumes that we all see some evidence of both types in him, which I do and I am assuming the EI does as well, or they wouldn't spend so much time discussing why he is not a Nine. |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 3:41:29 PM
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Marie's statement
"I don't think Obama fits all that comfortably at either Three or Nine. He seems extremely focused, ambitious and awake to be Nine...and he's such a "winner." But he has that Ninish thing going on as well...very teflon, uncomfortable with direct confrontation, very uncomfortable when it comes to making enemies and also...kind of "lucky." Openings just seem to appear for him. It's that Zen thing"
Again, couldn't it be that because his father-figure (grandfather) was a 9, he naturally took on those qualities? If he is a 3, I seriously doubt that he TRIES to act like a 9. Why is he attracted to Lincoln? Maybe it had something to do with Lincoln being like his grandfather or maybe Lincoln was his grandfather's idol.
(I think I see more of the healthier 6 qualities in myself because my mom is a 6. It's not always "disintegration")
9-7-4sx/? XNFP
“An optimist is someone who thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is someone who fears that this is true.”
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 3:52:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
Again, couldn't it be that because his father-figure (grandfather) was a 9, he naturally took on those qualities? If he is a 3, I seriously doubt that he TRIES to act like a 9. Why is he attracted to Lincoln? Maybe it had something to do with Lincoln being like his grandfather or maybe Lincoln was his grandfather's idol.
Obama's grandfather was a 9 and Obama takes after him physically.
When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's a duck. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 3:53:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
Marie's statement
"I don't think Obama fits all that comfortably at either Three or Nine. He seems extremely focused, ambitious and awake to be Nine...and he's such a "winner." But he has that Ninish thing going on as well...very teflon, uncomfortable with direct confrontation, very uncomfortable when it comes to making enemies and also...kind of "lucky." Openings just seem to appear for him. It's that Zen thing"
Again, couldn't it be that because his father-figure (grandfather) was a 9, he naturally took on those qualities? If he is a 3, I seriously doubt that he TRIES to act like a 9. Why is he attracted to Lincoln? Maybe it had something to do with Lincoln being like his grandfather or maybe Lincoln was his grandfather's idol.
(I think I see more of the healthier 6 qualities in myself because my mom is a 6. It's not always "disintegration")
9-7-4sx/? XNFP
“An optimist is someone who thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is someone who fears that this is true.”
I suppose if he's a Three, there might be any number of reasons why he has a connection to Nine. Disintegration is just a common route. I agree that the idea that he is trying to act like a Nine doesn't make much sense to me, and it would even look sort of forced. He would have to have some natural affinity for that energy in order to pull it off.
I'm not sure about his grandfather though...he had real itchy feet - they moved around a lot. He seems to have been open minded but kind of irresponsible, especially when it comes to money. I don't rule out Nine but I'm thinking he might actually have been a Seven. (But I don't know that much about him.) I am not sure about his mother's type either.
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.ron4
Member
9125 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 3:59:28 PM
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A rose is a rose is a rose.
Ron
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:00:57 PM
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quote:
Just in terms of preserving the system (assuming that we want to do that), it is more elegant to have Obama as a healthy Nine (one who seeks to establish peace and harmony actively), one who has successfully integrated to Three, than it is to see him as an average to healthy Three who has some peculiar relationship to type Nine.
Of course, this assumes that we all see some evidence of both types in him, which I do and I am assuming the EI does as well, or they wouldn't spend so much time discussing why he is not a Nine.
If we work with a system their needs to be some lines. I understand.
But I see two very clear fixations.
Obama has a desire to find union and peace in his relations. It's kneejerk, even.
Obama also has a fear of failure.
I see the type 9 desire and type 3 fear. Both equal.
Type 3 desire does fit if Obama wants to be admired for type 9 desire... which does not always win him favor.
Type 9 fear of rejection (loss and separation) could look a lot like type 3 fear of failure.
But I see almost merged fixations.
I understand what my concept does. I'm trying to work within the lines of the system. I really am. But I think sometimes.. their could be rare hybrids. Obama's childhood was not common and I could see a hybrid dynamic being born from it.
Desire - to find union and peace in his relations.
Fear - of failure.
hybrid. 9/3?
"All I am, or can be, I owe to my angel mother."
- Abraham Lincoln
About his mother, "I know that she was the kindest, most generous spirit I have ever known, and that what is best in me I owe to her."
- Barack Obama.
Or Maybe.. if a type 9 child has a rather 3ish relationship to his mother he is more likely to enntagrate to type 3.
And maybe if a type 9 child has a more 6ish relationship to his father (GW) he is more likely to disenntegrate to 6.
Just thoughts.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Feb 2009 4:33:01 PM |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:11:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by JoL
Marie's statement
"I don't think Obama fits all that comfortably at either Three or Nine. He seems extremely focused, ambitious and awake to be Nine...and he's such a "winner." But he has that Ninish thing going on as well...very teflon, uncomfortable with direct confrontation, very uncomfortable when it comes to making enemies and also...kind of "lucky." Openings just seem to appear for him. It's that Zen thing"
Again, couldn't it be that because his father-figure (grandfather) was a 9, he naturally took on those qualities? If he is a 3, I seriously doubt that he TRIES to act like a 9. Why is he attracted to Lincoln? Maybe it had something to do with Lincoln being like his grandfather or maybe Lincoln was his grandfather's idol.
(I think I see more of the healthier 6 qualities in myself because my mom is a 6. It's not always "disintegration")
9-7-4sx/? XNFP
“An optimist is someone who thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is someone who fears that this is true.”
I suppose if he's a Three, there might be any number of reasons why he has a connection to Nine. Disintegration is just a common route. I agree that the idea that he is trying to act like a Nine doesn't make much sense to me, and it would even look sort of forced. He would have to have some natural affinity for that energy in order to pull it off.
I'm not sure about his grandfather though...he had real itchy feet - they moved around a lot. He seems to have been open minded but kind of irresponsible, especially when it comes to money. I don't rule out Nine but I'm thinking he might actually have been a Seven. (But I don't know that much about him.) I am not sure about his mother's type either.
Marie, I'm a 9 and I've done all of the things you're saying his grandfather did. 9s (especially sx 1sts) can be very irresponsible, "itchy", and bad with money, imo. I'm very 7ish.
9-7-4sx/? XNFP
“An optimist is someone who thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is someone who fears that this is true.”
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Edited by - JoL on 28 Feb 2009 4:13:08 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:17:07 PM
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It's still very early. We don't have much in-depth biographical history of Barack Obama yet. From what I've seen so far, the further one gets away from Obama's political campaigning, the less he looks like a three. I really don't see anything of the 3 outside of the political campaigning.
But it's unlikely that those who already believe they know Obama's type will change their minds. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:35:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
Marie, I'm a 9 and I've done all of the things you're saying his grandfather did. 9s (especially sx 1sts) can be very irresponsible, "itchy", and bad with money, imo. I'm very 7ish.
9-7-4sx/? XNFP
Like I said, I am not ruling out Nine and I don't know that much about him. :) |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 4:46:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
It's still very early. We don't have much in-depth biographical history of Barack Obama yet. From what I've seen so far, the further one gets away from Obama's political campaigning, the less he looks like a three. I really don't see anything of the 3 outside of the political campaigning.
But it's unlikely that those who already believe they know Obama's type will change their minds.
I might change my mind. I'm not opposed to that.
One thing I notice though, it's hard (so far) to find much to ridicule about Obama. He's not any kind of "fool". He's not even a smarmy 3 that you could make jokes about.
9-7-4sx/? XNFP
“An optimist is someone who thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is someone who fears that this is true.”
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Feral Feline
Member
United Kingdom
2617 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:00:06 PM
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Posted by Lila:
"The term "Teflon Tony" turned out to be a joke. Not true. Even a little."
It was true, actually. Blair and his closest advisors - even his wife - were involved in several very dubious deals/scandals, but none of the dirt stuck to him. Hence the name.
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Edited by - Feral Feline on 28 Feb 2009 5:16:00 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:19:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
Posted by Lila:
"The term "Teflon Tony" turned out to be a joke. Not true. Even a little."
It was true, actually. Blair and his closest advisors - even his wife - were involved in several very dubious deals/scandals, but none of the dirt stuck to him. Hence the name.
But isn't Blair a bit of a disgrace now? Kind of a has been? Compare him to Reagan, the sleazeball who had ketchup declared a vegetable so that "we" could save tax dollars on the school lunch program. Reagan of the Iran/Contra scandal. He's an American hero. That's teflon. Blair is a joke. Or at least he's a joke over here. Maybe he is still lionized over there. |
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Topic |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
