| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Feral Feline
Member
United Kingdom
2617 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:23:30 PM
|
"About his mother, "I know that she was the kindest, most generous spirit I have ever known, and that what is best in me I owe to her." - Barack Obama.
"Dreams from my Father" left me thinking that he had very ambivalent feelings towards his mother. It is his absent father who seems to dominate the book and his search for "race and inheritance". With his mother's final illness and death, he perhaps felt a little guilt about this ... |
 |
|
|
lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:32:37 PM
|
the headlines in these parts read: For Blair, a Legacy Overshadowed and - I'm a Yankee Poodle Dandy, ect.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
|
|
|
lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:37:46 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
"About his mother, "I know that she was the kindest, most generous spirit I have ever known, and that what is best in me I owe to her." - Barack Obama.
"Dreams from my Father" left me thinking that he had very ambivalent feelings towards his mother. It is his absent father who seems to dominate the book and his search for "race and inheritance". With his mother's final illness and death, he perhaps felt a little guilt about this ...
I think Obama had a pretty complex relationship with his mother, father, and even grandparents.. who he has said he had an unspoken agreement with never to talk about 'problems'.
But.. I do see a 3ish relationship with his mother. But that might be type 9 mythologizing of his mother after her death like he mythologized his absent father as a child.
Hm. True enough.
Good call.
Pan's Labyrinth for mommy.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Feb 2009 5:43:44 PM |
|
|
|
Feral Feline
Member
United Kingdom
2617 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 5:44:30 PM
|
As far as one can tell, the only place Blair is lionized these days is America - what with his lucrative speaking engagements and lectureship at Yale (what did those poor kids do to deserve him?).
Britain's too small for him nowadays, lol.
But he seems set to become the first President of Europe. Something we all look forward to. 
|
Edited by - Feral Feline on 28 Feb 2009 5:53:53 PM |
|
|
|
marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 6:20:41 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Feral Feline
As far as one can tell, the only place Blair is lionized these days is America - what with his lucrative speaking engagements and lectureship at Yale (what did those poor kids do to deserve him?).
Mostly, they be rich kids...
And believe me, in America, he is not lionized. But, we do have a celebrity culture here and even those who have been voted off the island are in big demand if they made it to the final round.
|
|
|
|
baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2009 : 6:39:53 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by baba
I do'nt agree, Marie, y're not miles away from VO.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/3181612665_dbc195f907.jpg?v=0
But, I never said I was "miles away" from VO, especially her board persona (I haven't met her irl though and therefore reserve some judgment.) I said that I considered myself to be more dissimilar in terms of overall personality from many Fives, even those of the same type, wing etc., than from many people of other types. It's much more dramatic though if you include Fives with different wings and stackings. Leaving me out of it, carlos doesn't seem that much like cosmic dust, and yet I have no doubt that they are both Fives.
But I do agree that there seems to be vast differences between yourself and Sixishwoman. That only supports my point that there are vast differences within type. I am thinking that this may be even more pronounced in the 3, 6, 9 triad.
Greetings to you as well!
2008 Presidential Candidates... 3 or 9 and in different cases 6..
Interesting study for this institute.. So ,yes i agree.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3086/3181612665_dbc195f907.jpg?v=0 |
|
|
|
ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 2:49:16 PM
|
If Obama is a 3, isn't it unusual that he is uncomfortable in a status-conscious milieu where he holds such high status?
"Until then, Obama is left to find ways to make his world real. As a U.S. senator, he complained that Washington sometimes felt "status-conscious" and "artificial," and he promised voters during the presidential campaign that he planned to travel outside the capital for a regular dose of perspective. During the past three weeks, as Obama aggressively tried to sell his economic recovery package, he traveled to Indiana, Florida, Illinois, Colorado, Arizona and Canada as well as Camp David -- more trips outside Washington in his first month than any of the previous five presidents. Ronald Reagan only left twice during his first month, both times for Camp David. George H.W. Bush took one day trip to New Hampshire, and his son limited early travel to jaunts along the East Coast. Bill Clinton confined travel during his first month to an extensive three-day trip through the Midwest and California. But none of Obama's recent predecessors was grappling with two wars and the greatest economic collapse since the Great Depression."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/28/AR2009022801808_2.html?nav=rss_email/components&sid=ST2009022802387
http://books.google.com/books?id=BMi4jT-KC_QC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=enneagram+status&source=bl&ots=Kk_xxt1Wbz&sig=oDV0KXZxhgFCGx2DewtOJh0ndq8&hl=en&ei=KOWqSY7JD4iQngfy9uTrDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result |
Edited by - ptypes on 01 Mar 2009 2:56:04 PM |
|
|
|
bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 1:55:20 PM
|
| If Obama is a 3 (not saying he is), the reason he's 9ish is because of Indonesia, Hawaii, his need to straddle worlds, and the influence/values of his caregivers. It's not outlandish for a 3 to have 9-like values if the cultures he grew up in did. There's a lot of stuff here that makes 3s sound pretty one dimensional. |
|
|
|
pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 3:34:09 PM
|
bear: There's a lot of stuff here that makes 3s sound pretty one dimensional.
I can't decide what the biggest hurdle in this discussion is, the stuff making Threes sound one-dimensional or the stuff making Nines sound one-dimensional.
bear: It's not outlandish for a 3 to have 9-like values if the cultures he grew up in did.
It would be more outlandish for such a Three not to have at least a veneer of Nine-like values. Yet, you would have to be generous with the label "Nine-like" and be careful not to look below the surface.
Remember the problem of motivation. Everything else is just beating around the bush.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
|
|
|
bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 7:09:37 PM
|
| Agreed, and of course we can only guess at the motivation. |
|
|
|
ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 12:12:46 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by pork
Remember the problem of motivation. Everything else is just beating around the bush.
What are the 3 and 9 motivations? |
|
|
|
pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 11:41:53 PM
|
ptypes: What are the 3 and 9 motivations?
If you're asking me that question to get me to contextualize my opinion regarding the man's type, then you may find at least a dozen posts in the EIDB history under my name, amounting in the aggregate to a multifaceted description of each type's motivation.
But first, to get started, think head-heart-gut. Go from there. Each type in the outer triangle compulsively seeks "external" influences to compensate for problems associated with one of the three centers. In other posts, I have described examples of "average-to-healthy" Threes seeking admiration as a supplicant of self-image to compensate for shameful self-rejection and "average-to-healthy" Nines seeking purposeful energy in other people as a supplicant of self-presence to determine their velocital drive.
I don't know exactly "how" or "why" anyone "fell" into one basic type as opposed to another. I just have a fair sense of where we are now.
At higher or lower levels of "health," we see clearer signs of liberation or despair. Some of us think Obama is too "healthy" to show the ordinary pattern of his type. I just think he's a damned good orator and populist. 
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
|
|
|
ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 11:23:42 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by pork
ptypes: What are the 3 and 9 motivations?
But first, to get started, think head-heart-gut. Go from there. Each type in the outer triangle compulsively seeks "external" influences to compensate for problems associated with one of the three centers. In other posts, I have described examples of "average-to-healthy" Threes seeking admiration as a supplicant of self-image to compensate for shameful self-rejection and "average-to-healthy" Nines seeking purposeful energy in other people as a supplicant of self-presence to determine their velocital drive.
I agree with focusing on motivations. I was hoping that we could come to some kind of consensus on the 3 and 9 fixations and core motivations, or, at least, thoroughly discuss them.
Perhaps others will also respond. |
|
|
|
Bluelamp
Member
USA
637 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 12:04:18 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I agree with focusing on motivations. I was hoping that we could come to some kind of consensus on the 3 and 9 fixations and core motivations, or, at least, thoroughly discuss them.
Perhaps others will also respond.
Well there's always the EI's definition which I suspect you know since you link to them from your website:
3 Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.
9 Key Motivations: Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them.
Speaking of your website, I noticed that you map the 9w1 to ISTJ. I (citing Keirsey the younger and the EI) map Obama to INTJ-3. Even though it's 9 vs 3, we aren't far off MBTI-wise. We are both using somewhat off the beaten path mappings for the Enneagram vs MBTI and I suspect you like some of your mappings on that page of yours better than others but this could all indicate Obama is somewhat of a tweener.
The wings are meant to catch some tweeners but there are other things like Trifix or just the list of your individual Enneagram type scores that could make one a tweener. There's also as mentioned earlier by others the question of health level and integration/disintegration. |
|
|
|
pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 12:21:29 PM
|
ptypes: or, at least, thoroughly discuss them
Feel free to build upon or debate over what I've said. I tried to start basic enough for that kind of discussion. I'm assuming you understand everything so far.
The chief problem does not seem to be disagreement about the motivations but rather failure to trace certain signs in question back to them. We egregiously rely on general population trends regarding correlations between types and essentially ambiguous behavior to definitively type one person, or we speculate upon the person's motivation by assuming that a given quality - in the most general sense, even - can originate from one Enneagram point only.
I have outlined this and other cardinal sins of typing in previous posts in this thread.
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
|
|
|
ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 12:38:45 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by pork
ptypes: or, at least, thoroughly discuss them
Feel free to build upon or debate over what I've said. I tried to start basic enough for that kind of discussion. I'm assuming you understand everything so far.
The chief problem does not seem to be disagreement about the motivations but rather failure to trace certain signs in question back to them. We egregiously rely on general population trends regarding correlations between types and essentially ambiguous behavior to definitively type one person, or we speculate upon the person's motivation by assuming that a given quality - in the most general sense, even - can originate from one Enneagram point only.
I have outlined this and other cardinal sins of typing in previous posts in this thread.
Yeah, I think you've done an excellent job on this thread. |
|
|
|
ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 12:45:01 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bluelamp
quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I agree with focusing on motivations. I was hoping that we could come to some kind of consensus on the 3 and 9 fixations and core motivations, or, at least, thoroughly discuss them.
Perhaps others will also respond.
Well there's always the EI's definition which I suspect you know since you link to them from your website:
3 Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.
9 Key Motivations: Want to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them.
Thanks Bluelamp. |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Mar 2009 12:45:58 PM |
|
|
|
ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2009 : 12:58:36 PM
|
This is what the author of the article, Nines - the enneagram ...info from the underground--I believe that the author is Marie--says about the Nine fixation:
"The central problem for Nines revolves around the fact that their desire to maintain peace and to avoid conflict is compulsive. As the potential for conflict in life is virtually ubiquitous, the Nine's inability to confront it forcefully and deal with it effectively, leaves the Nine at a serious disadvantage when it comes to living a full, satisfying and honest life. This deeply rooted tendency to avoid discord plays itself out both internally and in the realm of external action, but generally manifests most centrally in close personal relationships, as intimate relationships more than anything else tend to trigger core defenses." |
Edited by - ptypes on 04 Mar 2009 1:14:58 PM |
|
|
|
salome
Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 9:30:21 PM
|
Have been watching the coverage of the Obamas in London for the G20 economic summit and I am more conviced than ever that Barack Obama is a Nine. What are the news anchors commenting on from London? That he is "brilliant in lowering the temperature" (of the rage around the issue of the economic meltdown that has created such chaos and hardship all around the world). That he is so remarkable in his ability to "put people at ease". That he is so "humble".
Warmth, humility, a genuine desire to bring everyone together so that EVERYONE can be taken care of...these are the hallmarks of Nine. President Obama doesn't hold a shred of "it's about me", status-consciousness, any of that; it's not about 'him', not in the least. One gets a sense (and evidence for this can be found in early interviews) that as for being in the limelight, he can take it or leave it. In an article in "The New Yorker" ("The Conciliator"--available online), the journalist reported that, on the subject of running for the highest office in the land, the Presidency, Obama wasn't sure he "even wanted the "hassle"! Doesn't sound a like a Three to me! And what Three, after graduating from Harvard, with honors, would eto go back to the south side of Chicago and work for chicken feed--when he had so many other more glamorous opportunities open to him. This is a Three?! Come on!
Barack Obama is a Nine. And, as a Nine myself, I feel the truth of this in my gut; and I found Riso and Hudson's analysis (the arguments they made for Barack Obama's being a Three kind of insulting. To make their argument for Three, they had to go WAAAAY healthy and completely integrated, super-evolved. But then, can't an argument be made, on that basis, of Obama being a WAAAAAY healthy and completely integrated and super-evolved Nine???
I think that most people don't *really* get what Nine is about, not really. We're quieter and don't blow our own horns much, so it seems others often just think of us as kind of "white bread", ho-hum, got nothing really going for them. That's what R&H's analysis felt like (and I think we are owed an apology!)But just because we don't think that every utterance of ours has to be acclaimed with an award or a million dollar book deal (how much crap is out there, but at least it's OUT THERE--something we Nines so often have a problem doing!)Nines have a lot of heart and a lot of soul, folks! And you may find that if you'd just listen! So... (yeah, this Nine is riled up!! :-)
I too thought, at first, that Obama was a Three. Right, I mean, he's so accomplished...attractive...charismatic...inspiring. But over time, it has become crystal clear to me that no, he is one of our (Nine) own! He wears his motivations on his shirtsleeves: putting people at ease, finding a way for everyone to be included, a desire for CONSENSUS, win-win solutions.
When I thought Obama was a Three, I saw an up side and a down side. I thought, great, he'll get a lot done. On the down-side, I thought, "god, maybe he really is just too good to be true and that it's all image..." Could I trust his motivations? He seemed to be genuinely and sincerely about all of us, but was it just...show? Ultimately?
Then when I decided, nope, this guy's a Nine, I thought, "great, we can trust him". Nines aren't about "me". As Rohr has said, they are the most trustworthy because of this; it would be very hard to imagine a Nine taking advantage of anyone. And that is so true... Having known a number of Nines in my lifetime, some healthier than others, some more evolved than others, I cannot imagine ANY of them EVER taking advantage of another person. And therein lies my concern about Obama; that if he has maintained his Nine's wanting to see the best in people, his innocence; if he hasn't learned that there really are people out there that WILL take advantage (and have no qualms or scruples over this)--something that I didn't come to terms with myself until into my mid-40's--he's going to be a sitting duck! (And my move to Six under stress in this economy is at play in this fear and in this desire to have all of us support and keep our eyes open for our President as he navigates all the messes he has inherited.)
salome |
|
|
|
salome
Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 10:16:56 PM
|
As for Bush's being a Nine, I find that VERY hard to believe. I just saw some video (television) of him at a basketball game or a baseball game or something. A little girl had come to him--she must have been around 5 years old) to ask for his autograph (you know a parent had sent her over). He didn't look up at her or engage with her in any way, just signed whatever it was she had handed him over his shoulder. Completely ignored this cute little kid! A Nine would never do this! I can't imagine any Nine I have ever known to do this! Nines make sure to acknowledge the existence of every living thing around them, saying hello to puppies and smiling at little kids in shopping carts at the grocery store. We want everyone to feel acknowledged and seen. I am really not understanding these analyses by the Enneagram Institute. :-) Again, I'll say that it's feeling a bit insulting, like Nines are just these blobs. Even at average levels, Nines are exquisitely sensitive to those around them. We may not be aware of ourselves all the time, but we are certainly aware of others.
salome |
|
|
|
salome
Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2009 : 10:36:36 PM
|
I'm refering (above, re: Bush) from the Enneagram Institute's posting of January 19, 2009:
"Also, we have seen virtually none of the passivity, disengagement, dissociation from reality, denial, wishfull thinking, complacency and other average Nine qualities so much in evidence in Bush (at Level 5) and slightly lower. At least some foreshadowing of these traits would be evident in Obama if he were a Nine."
I think that again, many don't seem to really understand the inner world of Nines. Perhaps this "dissociation from reality, wishful thinking, complacency" is what Nine looks like from the outside, through the lenses of other types who think their way of seeing things is THE way (as we all do). But as a Nine, what the above feels like most of the time (average levels) is a trust that everything will work out. Yes, granted, sometimes it's just that we don't want to deal with it anfd so, or others, that reads as "complacency" and "dissociating from reality"--but just whose 'reality' is the one objective reality!? "Wishful thinking"? Again, internally, this stems from a trust that everything is working out as it should--and, at times, that a fight is just not worth it (we're OK either way).
It can also entails WANTING to believe--and this is one of my concerns regarding Pres. Obama--that people are basically good and that if they aren't, it's just a matter of 'understanding' and finding common ground. This concerns me because, as I have stated in a previous posting, I have learned (and have suffered deep disillusionment, but have also 'grown up' a bit) that this NOT necessarily always the case (at least in this Relative 'reality'), that not everyone is so trustworthy and thinking of others as well as themselves (AIG, Enron, Madoff are some examples).
Granted I have an Eight wing and so perhaps what I feel and where I come from is different (?) R&H have stated that 9w8s look more like 4s at lower levels than typical Nines at lower levels, so perhaps this is the difference and so there is more 'fire in the belly'. Anyone have any comments on that?
salome |
|
|
|
bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2009 : 8:11:28 PM
|
There are a lot of threads about why Bush is a 9 - you can do a search on the top of the page. Not everyone agrees, but I'm one who does. I see both 9 and 3 in Obama, and agree with some of your points. But I think you're also putting a nice smile on type 9 and not owning the unhealthy stuff (including the line to 3). You seem to be substituting one stereotype for another.
Even at average levels, Nines are exquisitely sensitive to those around them. We may not be aware of ourselves all the time, but we are certainly aware of others.
I've seen 9s be completely oblivious to what's happening around them and others' feelings. I would never use "exquisitely sensitive" to describe a 9. Not that they can't be, but it certainly isn't a standard characteristic.
Perhaps this "dissociation from reality, wishful thinking, complacency" is what Nine looks like from the outside, through the lenses of other types who think their way of seeing things is THE way (as we all do). But as a Nine, what the above feels like most of the time (average levels) is a trust that everything will work out. Yes, granted, sometimes it's just that we don't want to deal with it anfd so, or others, that reads as "complacency" and "dissociating from reality"--but just whose 'reality' is the one objective reality!? "Wishful thinking"? Again, internally, this stems from a trust that everything is working out as it should--and, at times, that a fight is just not worth it (we're OK either way).
You are describing in your attitude exactly the things you're objecting to. I've heard 9s directly recognize these traits many times. Maybe it's wishful thinking to believe it's just wishful thinking?
I cannot imagine ANY of them EVER taking advantage of another person.
While 9s are often the ones who let themselves be taken advantage of, they are often quite co-dependent. There's a lot of taking advantage in co-dependency. It's definitely in the 9's tool drawer.
And therein lies my concern about Obama; that if he has maintained his Nine's wanting to see the best in people, his innocence; if he hasn't learned that there really are people out there that WILL take advantage (and have no qualms or scruples over this)-
I thought I saw a lot of that innocence during his first few weeks - the way he thought there'd be a coming together with Congress, that his reaching out would make things work. I'm not sure whether that's type related or just inexperience.
BTW - not sure if it's you, but the last time I read this thread it wasn't like this - when someone posts with more characters than standard width, it knocks the whole page out of size and it's impossible to read without paging back and forth left/right. If you see other threads react this way after you post, you may have a funky setting in your browser that needs adjusting.
|
|
|
|
Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2009 : 06:46:10 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by salome
As for Bush's being a Nine, I find that VERY hard to believe. I just saw some video (television) of him at a basketball game or a baseball game or something. A little girl had come to him--she must have been around 5 years old) to ask for his autograph (you know a parent had sent her over). He didn't look up at her or engage with her in any way, just signed whatever it was she had handed him over his shoulder. Completely ignored this cute little kid! A Nine would never do this! I can't imagine any Nine I have ever known to do this!
I can - unresponsive; lack of engagement; 'on autopilot'; all lower Health E9 characteristics.
Or as bear pointed out, perhaps he just 'didn't want to deal with' her.
- 
 |
Edited by - Stormy on 04 Apr 2009 06:54:32 AM |
|
|
|
marie
Member
4292 Posts |
|
|
lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 6:57:56 PM
|
R & H seem to think that because Obama was a hero child with ambition that means he was a 3. However, 4 years ago my father, a type 9 with out doubt, wrote his life story for me on request.
I came across it today.
My father at age 15.
"Always eager to make money, I, too, went to work washing dishes at the Occidental Café. I worked on Friday nights and weekends for fifty cents an hour. Both my mother and I worked hard. Sweating like a horse, she put out a tremendous amount of food, lifting huge frying pans filled with boiling oil and cooking chickens. She shocked me with the vulgar language she used with other co workers. After work she and Roy sat at the bar and got drunk. I hated to be around her when she was drinking because she BECAME MEAN. When the restaurant was busy, I washed mounds of dishes by hand in lye soap water. At the end of a long shift, my hands had missing patches of skin. When I wasn’t washing, I peeled fifty pounds of potatoes at a sitting. As I peeled, I decided I wasn’t always going to do this kind of work, maybe I would become a con man when I grew up.
At school, I missed most of the extra curricular activities, like school dances, football games and everything else, except for acapela trips. I kept that routine for three years, missing out on a lot of teenage fun. Perhaps, that’s why I’m so childish now, making up for lost time.
Despite my mother’s work, my parents finances became steadily worse, paying huge amounts of interest to loan shark companies. The lack of money fostered ongoing emotional arguments between my parents. Acting like the “hero child” I had become, I attempted to moderate between them. After one loud argument, my mother stuffed on a hat and ran away through the woods. I ran after her and asked where she was going. She said she was going to Alaska to be a prostitute. I told her that’s not what she needed. Her children at home were upset. She said she wasn’t going home because Roy would yell at her. I said I would fix it.
Another time, I interrupted their arguments by suggesting the preparation of a budget. I said I would help them with it. When I added up all their fixed monthly payments, I saw that their expenses exceeded their income. I was stumped. I began to pay five dollars a month towards my keep."
My father was the first in his family to go to university. He has a PhD in psychology but made his money from realestate.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 07 Apr 2009 7:02:12 PM |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
