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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 1:53:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
The difference couldn't be clearer - Obama wonders why there has to be a conflict and is compelled to keep pointing out where he and O'Reilly agree; whereas, stiff competition is expected by the Threes.
The apparent high level of animus in Clinton and Edwards contrasted with the apparent lack of animus in Obama.
Aren't 3s supposed to be aggressive types? Obama seems more like a combination of compliant and detached types. |
Edited by - ptypes on 19 Jan 2009 2:17:30 PM |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 2:15:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
But we have known and worked with many "laid back" 3w4's who are temperamentally, emotionally, and energetically exactly like Obama: they are invariably charming, easy-going on the surface (while a ball of energy and ambition beneath the surface), articulate, professional (and sometimes "professorial"), cool and not too emotionally expressive (often making them think they are Fives or Nines), and somewhat aloof from people--"
Why don't you name some other well known people who you believe are like this, so that we can see and judge for ourselves. |
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koolkatkuhner
Member
3777 Posts |
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ptypes
Member
5394 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 2:46:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
I've got Bogdanovich as a social 3w4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LthLETM5y5E
Do you see some similarities between Bogdanovich and Obama? |
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koolkatkuhner
Member
3777 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 2:50:16 PM
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I'll stick with my original typing of Palin...3w2s cross that line between confident and glib all the time in campaigns. Think Arnie, Edwards, and Romney. Her elusive responses to questions she can't answer and imagey parries mask a discomfort with spontaniety.
Spontaneity equals uncalculated risk equals losing for a Three. |
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koolkatkuhner
Member
3777 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 3:04:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
I've got Bogdanovich as a social 3w4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LthLETM5y5E
Do you see some similarities between Bogdanovich and Obama?
Both have the temperament to put an audience to sleep.
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 3:18:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
Everyone,
It might help clarify things if people went back to Personality Types and quoted some of the actual descriptions we have written about the various types involved. As we have said, we believe Obama is a healthy Three, often reaching into the higher Levels. Here's a couple of paragraphs of the Three at Level 1:
--
The Enneagram Institute
So... Obama is now a 3w4 at level 1?
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 19 Jan 2009 4:00:46 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 3:58:10 PM
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quote:
If, as you believe, Obama is operating in the 3-5 level range, wouldn't we see more than of "hint" of average Type 3 behavior, behavior that you could point out to everyone.
There are a lot of republican operatives that have painted Obama in lowish health type 3 colors. It's an easy and ready to use play book that they have familiarity with. It's is also full of projection. Most those republican operatives are low average 6's with lines to low health 3. They malign and distort and twist facts into ugly pictures with insidious undertones and install fears of the unknown. That sneaky, sneaky Obama is tricking us all! He is not what he seems. Be afraid... be very afraid!
Even moderate republican Mark Halperin from Time Magazine could not help but paint Obama's natural calm manner as a cold unfeeling detachment. And in Mark Halperin view point Obama's natural calmness when under pressure was proof of his condescending elite cockieness. Because... any normal person would be freaking out.. or some such. 
quote:
(It is also worth noting that we have a personal contact with someone well-placed in the Obama Administration who is himself a Three, and he thinks that Obama is a Three....)
He himself is a Three and thinks Obama is a Three. No ego investment there, I'm sure. lol
quote:
But we have known and worked with many "laid back" 3w4's who are temperamentally, emotionally, and energetically exactly like Obama: they are invariably charming, easy-going on the surface (while a ball of energy and ambition beneath the surface), articulate, professional (and sometimes "professorial"), cool and not too emotionally expressive (often making them think they are Fives or Nines), and somewhat aloof from people--opening them to the criticism that they have a "superior" attitude and are elitist, and so forth--virtually all observations that have been made about Obama.
Yes, yes... Obama has a "superior" and "elitist" nature because he pointed out that when people have been let down again and again by the empty promises made from leaders the people lose trust and turn away from the government and hold on even tighter to the things that they know and trust and which make them feel secure in insecure times. Like their 2nd amendment rights and religion. They often turn towards isolationism when afraid... which feeds into xenophobia.
I call it the Lou Dobbs syndrome. But then... maybe I'm just a "superior" "elitist" 6w7.
God forbid reality is acknowledged.
In any case... I would like to watch your 3w4's under the mass pressure and stress of a long fought presidential campaign. My money is on them showing signs of a lower health choleric and melancholic temperament. (Although, it is true Obama shows signs of a high health choleric/melancholic mix.. just like he shows some high health 3ishness)
I guess time will tell. to date, however... no lower health choleric/melancholic out burst. Ever.
3w2's are most often a choleric-sanguine mix and can look like 7's.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 19 Jan 2009 5:29:38 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 4:37:17 PM
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The only hint of withdrawn I see in Obama
may be in his 4 wing, other than that I see
no withdrawn type clues in Obama.
I think his aggression shows in the time
took to become President.
3s put feelings and material things aside
in many cases to accomplish their goals.
At the same level in the 9 descriptions the
9 is still concerned about peace yet Obama
is saying we're in trouble and shows no fear.
He wants to include everyone because his
thinking is everyone or anyone can be great.
He's goal oriented and he thought Michelle
was too.
Obama is not bringing us together.
Ron
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 4:48:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Obama is not bringing us together.
Ron
He has brought 84% of us together, right now. Obama has the highest show of unity and support from our nation's people in American history in the polls. So, I would disagree. The people in America have never been more united than at this moment in history.
Chance for America to Come Together
The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Sunday morning indicates that most Americans see Obama's inauguration as a chance for the nation to come together with 84% Approving of Obama.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 19 Jan 2009 5:35:00 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 5:14:05 PM
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I liked your analysis of Obama...it contained a lot of interesting information about Threes and about Obama, and I will concede at the outset, that he might very well be a social Three with Four.
But I can't personally sign off on that analysis, even though I have given it a lot of thought...I think that anyone who is too certain at this point isn't quite seeing the problem. But, I am still leaning toward Nine.
First, as evidence for Three...well, the guy has written two autobiographies! That alone seems to point to Three as opposed to Nine. Nevertheless...the style...it just doesn't seem all that Threeish to me. There's a certain melancholia that pervades his manuscripts...However, if you wanted to point to evidence for a Four wing, we could claim it here. Usually I type Threes as Four winged when I cannot detect a Two wing, or when the Three seems especially "cool." It's a diagnosis by exclusion...but if Obama is a Three with Four, we have positive evidence of a Four wing. He is attuned to symbolism; he understands the power of myth.
Having said that, now that we are on the subject of myths, Obama seems way more like Harry Potter, a clear Nine, than he does like Superman, an obvious Three. Not that I wish to push the point. :)
However, there has been something very mythic about this whole thing. The other day, as I was watching the proceedings, I was thinking just how surreal it all was....that a black man named Barack Hussein Obama was about to assume the presidency of the United States of America, just at a time when it had lost touch with its higher ideals. And the guy has a name and an aura right out of Star Wars! Shortly after this association had occurred to me, the camera actually panned to George Lucas dancing in the crowd. George Lucas and Star Wars....very Nine! Not that I wish to pursue the point. :)
I do think there is some internal incoherence in your claiming that Obama is a Three at levels Three to Five, but that he seems Ninelike at some points in his life because he is so disintegrated (and disintegrated for many, many years at that) but can currently seem Ninelike because he is in touch with Being and has accessed his "missing piece." Then you cite quotations that would apply to Threes at "very healthy" levels.
There's generally not much problem in comparing average Threes and average Nines; if we posit that he is a Three or a Nine in the healthy range - just for the sake of argument - it gets a bit more complicated. We have to throw out the putative results of enneatyping tests; we have to discard the buzzwords. If we assume that he is healthy, then we cannot exclude Nine because he has been so self aware and ambitious, as those are precisely the qualities that a realized Nine would embody. If we posit health, we cannot exclude Nine because Obama is not "slothful."
I noticed that you compared Obama to other type Nine presidents and claimed that, for various reasons, he didn't seem much like them. But, the only modern president whom Obama reminds me of at all, is Ronald Reagan. And Obama recognized this himself and got in big trouble with his own Left wing for owning up to it. (He needs to be more deceptive!) I was listening to some of the talking heads on CNN the other night, and they were making the comparison to Reagan as well. (They also mentioned Obama's "Zen-like quality.") As they are clearly not pointing to a similarity with Reagan's ideology, they are seeing the same thing we are seeing when we recognize Obama's Nineish tendencies.)
As for his channeling of Lincoln...maybe he is just a Three with a big ego who wants to compare himself to America's most beloved president (big Four wing!)...or maybe he is a Nine who aspires to embody the archetype. I really don't know. Does he do this out of pride or humility? I don't know.
But I do know that several of Lincoln's biographers have quoted Lincoln's law partner as saying that Lincoln's ambition "was a little engine that knew no rest." Not all Nines lack ambition; not all Nines ascend to power because they have an ambitious spouse or are cyphers for the Republican Party. It always seems somehow discordant to see an ambitious Nine...but they aren't really all that rare.
When I try to compare Obama to other politicians who are Threes, I just don't get much resonance. Threes are often polarizing figures...like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter...they try to embody a specific ideal and alienate everyone else. They trigger envy in others; they frequently inspire the movement for the opposition
I do appreciate that you do not see any of Reagan in Obama; it's a subjective call after all. And I do appreciate that, if Obama is a Three, he has a Four wing, unlike Bill, who has a big Two wing and is soc/sex as well. But what about Jimmy Carter? I have him as soc/sp...no way that man has a prominent sx instinct. My understanding is that you have also typed him as having a Four wing. (Myself, I am quite sure of his type and stacking, but vacillate when it comes to wing.) Anyway...I have Jimmy Carter as being exactly the kind of Three that you claim Obama to be - a Three who has adopted the role of "peacemaker"...he sees himself as being a really "good person." And when it came down to it, he really sucked at it too. Just a disaster of a president. Obama seems to be a natural. He seems to mediate by way of compulsion. He actively strives to make peace with his enemies. He seems fixated on this.
I have known a fair number of average or high average Threes with Four, social variants, just as you have, but they don't really remind me of Obama. In academia, social Threes often rise to positions of relevance. The only one I can think of that you all would know is Steven Pinker - an obvious Three with Four and most likely soc/sp. There was an article written by him in the NYTimes two Sundays ago...the article was ostensibly about the human genome project but was really about Steven Pinker's genome. Lots of pictures. Including ones of his foot! Anyway, leaving the obvious narcissism aside, he falls into the same pattern that many other prominent Threes fall into; he is actually quite polarizing as he vigorously embodies one ideal. He also triggers envy in others because people recognize, even if only at a subconscious level, that he wants to be better than they are. Obama does not trigger this reaction. He seems to move against it compulsively.
His entire message during the campaign was that he couldn't do it himself; that power comes from the people. (The Master doesn't talk, he acts. When his work is done, the people say, "Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!") I just don't see Obama, as a man, as being all that incredibly impressive...and I think he knows it. But somehow, he manages to step out of the way and channel something that is truly singular. And that is impressive.
Maybe it doesn't matter whether he is a healthy Three or a healthy Nine...and really, I have so little experience typing healthy people that I can't have any certainty about Obama's type. I can't even understand how or why he should be healthy. Perhaps there is such a thing as grace after all. I just don't know.
It might even be better if he were a healthy Three. I don't think he sees himself as a messiah; I see that as mostly a projection. But we know what happens to messiahs in the end, having to drink to the last drop and all... If he's a Three, he'll more likely be spared. He is much more likely to invoke the winner archetype.
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Edited by - marie on 19 Jan 2009 5:37:42 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 5:21:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
Obama is not bringing us together.
Ron
He is brought 84% of us together, right now. Obama has the highest show of unity and support from our nation's people in American history in the polls. So, I would disagree. The people in America have never been more united than at this moment in history.
Chance for America to Come Together
The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Sunday morning indicates that most Americans see Obama's inauguration as a chance for the nation to come together with 84% Approving of Obama.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8
He's the symbol/timing , we bring ourselves together.
He's not like some other Presidents.
Ron |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 5:26:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
I've got Bogdanovich as a social 3w4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LthLETM5y5E
Bogdanovich: Seven with Eight. Not in control of his image. Crass in the extreme. Outside of the boundaries of propriety. A man who makes enemies. Nothing like Obama. |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 5:31:54 PM
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quote:
He's the symbol/timing , we bring ourselves together.
Ron
Indeed... but he is the leader and people are taking his lead. He is leading us towards unity.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 5:44:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Enneagram Institute
In the end, time will tell. As he makes decisions, and as events force him to reveal more of his real self, we will have a clearer picture of what type he really is. (It is also worth noting that we have a personal contact with someone well-placed in the Obama Administration who is himself a Three, and he thinks that Obama is a Three....) In any event, we are sure that virtually everyone on this Board wishes him well as he begins to lead the country out of the Bush Debacle.
--
The Enneagram Institute
He will be under a lot of pressure...so perhaps it will become clear with time. But, if he's a healthy representative of his type...maybe not. That would be most frustrating.
As for your friend the Three,who is well placed in the Obama administration...that's pretty amusing, and requires no comment.
But yes...we definitely wish him well.
(And you too Don...hope you recover completely as soon as possible!) |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 6:01:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lilalove
quote:
He's the symbol/timing , we bring ourselves together.
Ron
Indeed... but he is the leader and people are taking his lead. He is leading us towards unity.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8
Well I'[m glad you feel that way.
Ron
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Dee
Member
6920 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 6:15:33 PM
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quote:
(It is also worth noting that we have a personal contact with someone well-placed in the Obama Administration who is himself a Three, and he thinks that Obama is a Three....)
--
The Enneagram Institute
Did he elaborate as to why he thinks he is a three and by any chance did he refer to himself with his assessment or perhaps more to the point, did he go by what "impression" he made that which is "favourable"? Or perhaps he doesn't care for the man and so that I am curious to know as well but something tells me being he works for the administration, that can be ruled out..
4w3 sx/sp/so
dee says: Priorities are only effective when in the right order! (Type 1) |
Edited by - Dee on 19 Jan 2009 6:29:46 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 6:17:00 PM
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quote:
Well I'[m glad you feel that way.
I'm not going by my own feelings, ron.
Although, they also confirm the hard data's findings on the matter.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 19 Jan 2009 6:18:38 PM |
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Dee
Member
6920 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 6:35:12 PM
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My type 3 sales manager has a favourite quote he uses quite frequently. He even wrote it in my XMas card. "I love your style!"
There is a lady on my team who gets away with murder (7w8) because he loves her style! Me? Not so much..
4w3 sx/sp/so
dee says: Priorities are only effective when in the right order! (Type 1) |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 10:22:57 PM
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quote:
Nine and Six — two of the most psychologically conservative types of the Enneagram
Higher health 9's are not that psychologically conservative. They are dreamers and can bring forth great change through visionary euphony and wild creations.
I'm a self loathing 6 and agree we tend to be stupid and stuck in little cages. We fight the bars but are too chicken shit to break free and follow our own dreams. So we complain and place blame on life circumstance. I'm forced to stay in the little cage to survive. ect. ect.
It's a love-hate relationship with our prisons. Or, maybe in the end, just a helpless kind of apathy we dress up as "duty". |
Edited by - lilalove on 19 Jan 2009 10:58:32 PM |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2009 : 11:46:15 PM
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The Zen of Obama - by Amy Sullivan
Reading this NYT story about Obama's relationship with John McCain post-election, it strikes me that Obama--alone among virtually every politician I can think of--does not appear to hold grudges.
The ability to forgive and forget is probably a necessary character trait if you're going to try to follow through on promises to end partisanship. But it's interesting that this doesn't seem to be just a matter of pragmatism. I don't get the sense that Obama is gritting his teeth when he sits down with McCain or the Clintons or even Bill Kristol. That may not necessarily be a good thing--grudge-holding could be a perfectly reasonable defense mechanism to avoid being rolled by an enemy. But it is remarkable given how often long memories and paybacks pop up in political biographies.
Hmmm.....
"Both the melancholic and choleric temperaments retain their impressions for a long time—so you will have the capacity to persevere in achieving your goals—as well as holding onto to a grudge and being unforgiving!"
Bipartisan Dinner Honoring Senator John McCainMonday, January 19, 2009
Washington, D.C.
Remarks of President-elect Barack Obama
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There is no doubt that throughout the summer and the fall, John and I were fierce competitors who engaged in a vigorous and sometimes heated debate over the issues of the day. And in a great democracy, this debate is both healthy and necessary.
But what is even healthier and more necessary is the recognition that after the season of campaigning has ended, each of us in public life has a responsibility to usher in a new season of cooperation built on those things we hold in common. Not as Democrats. Not as Republicans. But as Americans.
I could stand here and recite the long list of John's bipartisan accomplishments. Campaign finance reform. Immigration. The Patients' Bill of Rights. All those times he has crossed the aisle and risked the ire of his party for the good of his country. And yet, what makes John such a rare and courageous public servant is not the accomplishments themselves, but the true motivation behind them.
It has not been a quest for fame or vanity that has driven this man. It has not been the need to compromise for politics' sake that has shaped his distinguished career. It is rather a pure and deeply felt love of his country that comes from the painful knowledge of what life is like without it.
Few of us can imagine what John endured during the days he spent in that lonely prison cell, but perhaps we can imagine that surviving such an ordeal provides a unique and renewed perspective about what is important and what is not; about what is worth fighting over and what is not.
We can imagine that the pettiness and bitterness and immaturity that often pervades our politics seems even more unworthy of our country from this perspective; that the incessant bickering and partisanship for the sake of scoring a few political points seems even smaller. And what seems bigger and more worthy of defending are those ideals we hold in common as Americans: liberty, equality, and opportunity.
Those are the ideals that John has spent and risked his life fighting for, and his example is one for all of us to remember and to follow as we seek to defend those ideals against the common threats to our prosperity and our security.
So I'd like to thank John for all he's done and ask him to come join me on stage for a moment.
Thank you, John, for your service to America and the service you will continue to render in the months and years ahead. And I'd like to close by asking all of you to join us in making this bipartisan dinner not just an inaugural tradition, but a new way of doing the people's business in this city. We will not always agree on everything in the months to come, and we will have our share of arguments and debates. But let us strive always to find that common ground, and to defend together those common ideals, for it is the only way we can meet the very big and very serious challenges that we face right now. Thank you, God Bless You, and may God Bless America.
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 20 Jan 2009 08:28:23 AM |
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 01:27:37 AM
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The Enneagram Institute: It is also worth noting that we have a personal contact with someone well-placed in the Obama Administration who is himself a Three, and he thinks that Obama is a Three....
All right, which one of you said that? Mr. Riso? Mr. Hudson? Ms. Taylor? Come on, admit it. 
^(oo)^
4w3-6w5-8w9
SP/SX
INFJ |
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~lee~
Member
USA
7144 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 12:35:21 PM
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Interesting that Obama stumbled over the oath.
I liked the speech, mostly. |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12531 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 12:38:57 PM
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Obama's cool finally broke?
Not smooth. But endearing in it's way.
I thought his speech was great. He is such a wise humanitarian.
According to Plato - The only character capable of ruling a just society must be one with a passion for truth, and who has achieved the greatest wisdom or knowledge of the Good: the philosopher.
Obama is indeed the philosopher king.
Well, not a king.. but you understand what is meant.
I liked this line.
"To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society's ills on the West — know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy."
And that... that single line.. is a key insight into what to expect from Obama in the next 4 years.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1872715-1,00.html
The super real sx/so
6w7-4w3-9w8 |
Edited by - lilalove on 20 Jan 2009 1:25:56 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2009 : 1:12:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
Interesting that Obama stumbled over the oath.
I liked the speech, mostly.
Interesting that you focused on that. (He's not Superman after all.)
MSNBC blamed it on John Roberts.
What is the Truth? |
Edited by - marie on 20 Jan 2009 1:19:25 PM |
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2008 Presidential Candidates (Second Edition)
