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~lee~
Member
USA
8178 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 11:52:42 PM
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On my way home from work, I picked up "Gender Outlaw", lying in a free pile.
In the Blurb, we get: "I know I'm not a man...and I've come to the conclusion that I'm probably not a woman, either...The trouble is, we're living in a world that insists we be one or the other."
With these words, Kate Bornstein ushers readers on a funny, insightful and wonderfully scenic journey across the frontiers of gender and identity. On one level, Gender Outlaw is an account of Bornstein's transformation from heterosexual male to lesbian woman, from a one-time IBM salesperson to a playwright and performance artist. But this particular coming-of-age story is also a fascinating and deeply provocative investigation into our notions of male and female, the myths attached to them, and the penalties that befall not only those who transgress the definitions but anyone who blindly conforms to them.
I'm looking forward to reading this book!
So....if you care to share,
People of which types would be most/least likely to experience gender identity issues?
To what extent do you identify with your biological gender?
With your gender as socially constructed?
Ever wish you were the other gender, or neither gender, or both at the same time?
Does gender really matter? Why?
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oldtimer
Member
349 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 12:29:26 AM
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I've found the sx instinct to be stereotypically feminine.
Among other places, I find examples in the stereotypical husband/wife sitcom. The wife wants more intimate time just talking or romancing or such. The reluctant husband does what he has to in order to satisfy her in that way - meanwhile the husband just wants to go hang out with his buddies (so) or watch the football game in peace (sp) or something like that. |
Edited by - oldtimer on 21 Jul 2009 01:06:24 AM |
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~lee~
Member
USA
8178 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 01:30:47 AM
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I was in a conversation the other night about gender so it's serendipitous that this book showed up.
I've never strongly identified with being female, although my body is about as stereotypically female as one can have. And my mothers attempts to socialize me as a young lady when I was a teenager were acutely painful. Honestly, I didn't want to pay attention to all that body stuff.
It seemed like guys had it easier (I know now that's not necessarily true) in that they got more respect. It was better to be male if you wanted to "be somebody" in the world, or so it seemed.
Being female meant not being taken seriously as a person who identified with thinking. |
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aestrivex
Member
499 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 04:46:22 AM
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i feel basically androgynous most of the time.
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"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."
-- Wikipedia article on Alpha Oumar Konare, leader of Mali. |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15284 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 05:25:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
It seemed like guys had it easier (I know now that's not necessarily true) in that they got more respect. It was better to be male if you wanted to "be somebody" in the world, or so it seemed.
It seemed pretty much the opposite to me, although I now realize I was looking for excuses to avoid taking responsibility for my life.
quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
Being female meant not being taken seriously as a person who identified with thinking.
Being male meant not being exceptional for identifying with thinking.
[Stormy] |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
15943 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 10:31:52 AM
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| talking about polar beings...one being male amd one being female which join to form trasnsformation energy.....i wonder how that affects polar beings who are both female or both male? |
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~lee~
Member
USA
8178 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 11:14:23 AM
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Need to distinguish gender from sex.
The author goes into lots of cues for gender--e.g., appearance, mannerisms, interests...and the biggie--biology--if there's [blocked], then male. If not then female.
On my way to Portland a week or so ago I was sitting next to a person who's gender I had a really hard time determining. (Actually I get it wrong a not inconsiderable number of times, much to my embarrassment.) I thought that the person was female but she had a mustache and a lot of facial and chest hair. She SEEMED female to me, though, in voice and energy. At the end, she said something about needing to buy lunch for her husband....which doesn't really answer the question but in my mind lent some evidence to my surmise.
It's interesting that I'd been speculating. (Of course, really, there's not much else to do on a bus.)
People who've not met me in person can trip up, since I have one of those gender-ambiguous names. Especially common in scientific circles. I've had people who were familiar with my work meet me at conferences and be surprised. "You're a WOMAN????" Um....yeah. Studies have been done showing that if a person's gender is clear from their name, it affects things like how journal articles or grants get reviewed, or job applications evaluated. That's creepy. |
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~lee~
Member
USA
8178 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 12:57:56 PM
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Thinking naively, I would guess that biologically male 4s and 2s, and biologically female 5s and 8s end up having to do more processing of the effects of gender than folks of other types, due to cultural norms.
For sure, I grew up feeling like I didn't fit. |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
15943 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 1:32:05 PM
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hummm! yes!
the human body and its polar beings.
interesting examples:
- a male body with its polar beings...both female.
- a male body with a male and female polar being.
- a male body with its polar beings...both male.
- a female body with its polar beings...both male.
- a female body with a female and male polar being.
- a female body with its polar beings...both female.
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oldtimer
Member
349 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 1:36:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
Thinking naively, I would guess that biologically male 4s and 2s, and biologically female 5s and 8s end up having to do more processing of the effects of gender than folks of other types, due to cultural norms.
For sure, I grew up feeling like I didn't fit.
I agree with the above. Another way to look at I think is to say that 4 and 2 are stereotypically sx and the 5 and 8 (thinking the John Wayne go it alone type) are stereotypically sp. Perhaps that's a sort of cultural conditioning where women are expected to be more sx and men more sp - when they're not, they may be seen as out of place in terms of gender stereotype.
Not sure how social plays out. Seems like in the past, little boys were brought into team sports early - maybe that's changed since I was a kid and little girls are more encouraged in these activities nowadays. |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
15943 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 1:42:41 PM
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| ......variant gender identification is not present in todays human psychic structure and neglected on a wide scale. |
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~lee~
Member
USA
8178 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 1:52:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Art_Skidmore
......variant gender identification is not present in todays human psychic structure and neglected on a wide scale.
It's much more present now than when I was growing up. Same for sexual orientation issues.
Go into a bookstore in any reasonably sized city (dunno about small towns) and you'll find shelves of books on gender expression, gay/lesbian literature and social studies, male power, femal power, etc. But as a teen in the 60s, this stuff was NOT talked about and if you were curious or confused like me, good luck finding any information. I remember reading a book called The Well of Loneliness" or something like that about a lesbian/confused/probably transgender woman--it was depressing but that's what was out there back then. Now, you have all sorts of transgender-friendly and gay-positive sources in books and the internet. And the emergence of phenomena like "metrosexual".
You would, Art, but probably many of the 20/30somethings here have no clue about much has changed since the sixties. Sometimes I wish I'd been born a lot later. |
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amber_headlights
Member
USA
900 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 3:23:44 PM
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I'm in sort of a weird category with that stuff, in that there are some ways, I really identify with female things and in other ways, I just can't grasp them at all. I have a real blind spot for "typical" female behavior, ways of communicating, attitudes, etcetera.
On the one hand, I do like certain female things, like little dresses, wearing my hair long, "cute" purses, etcetera. At the same time, I tend to be very low maintenance. I spend half an hour getting ready in the morning, my husband takes twice as long. I hate going into women's bathrooms, because there's always a million women preening, putting on make-up, gossipping with one another, etcetera. I don't understand why people would do these things. I hate going to the hairdresser. I go maybe once or twice a year, for a dye and trim. My husband goes every month, and our hairdresser usually teases me about how it's maybe only one step above going to the dentist for me. She knows I'd much rather be at home reading a book or something. A lot of times, I'll be walking around, carrying a heavy backpack full of books going to/from school or a cafe. Sometimes my dress will get bunched up a little, or my tag will be sticking out, and a woman feels the need to come up to me and whisper in my ear that I need to fix it. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why anyone would be so concerned about stuff like that, that they'd be constantly monitoring it in themselves, let alone feel the compulsion to let me know about it. Isn't it obvious that I don't care?
Then, there's (heterosexual) female attitudes towards sexual attraction. I'm really good at intuiting when someone is attracted to me, but I'm not really good at, well, "the game." There's stuff that most women seem to know, about the whole courtship game, that really is pretty foreign to me. All the subtext and coded messages, all the knowing the way women are supposed to flirt, there's a whole cat and mouse thing that just seems like too much trouble. There's probably a reason that most of my relationships have begun in bars. There's a similar thing with same gender socializing. There's a whole dynamic there that is, well, why most of my friends have been men.
I'm in a weird category for intellectual females, too. A lot of women in my profession admit to feeling initially intimidated by male colleagues, or having some sort of childhood background where they were conscious of being an exception to their gender for pursuing something as cerebral and logical as philosophy. I never felt that. My dad's a retired English professor and pushed all his kids (from 3 marriages---3 girls and 1 boy) towards academic achievement. My mom has a BA in English, MFA in creative writing, plus an education degree and linguistics certificate. We were also really into sci-fi. So, I tend to feel a lot more comfortable around the socially awkward sci-fi geek males in my program than the women who successfully navigated the high school social scene.
In general, I don't relate to a lot of the gender norms and gender socialization, but in a way that I think is more oblivious to and confused by them than oppressed by them, if that makes sense.
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"The whole history of modern poetry is a running commentary on the following brief philosophical text: all art should become science and all science art; poetry and philosophy should be made one."
-Friedrich Schlegel |
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Rich
Member
USA
3850 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 7:34:08 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by amber_headlights
We were also really into sci-fi. So, I tend to feel a lot more comfortable around the socially awkward sci-fi geek males in my program than the women who successfully navigated the high school social scene.
*** Since I have been reading science fiction since 1953, I could probably convince many people that I'm a Jungian INJ, ( instead of a Jungian ISJ ) by talking about the big concepts, like stories covering million of years of evolution, or the ultimate destiny of humanity or the wonderful paradoxes of time travel and alternate worlds....
But, when it comes to gender identification, I show the prejudices of my type. Gender doesn't matter to me, as long as the individual can pull their weight and are self starters, willing to tackle the work that needs to be done! I avoid idlers, slackers and incompetents of whatever gender, whenever possible. A charming female slacker, is no more acceptable than a funny male time waster....
 / 
ISTJ & SP-3W4
Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles
HER:Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles SP-2W1 ISFJ
My philosophy of life: Love will get you through.
I learned to dissemble at an early age. |
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warrants outstanding
Member
1123 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 7:41:23 PM
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I've worked in the LGBT community for about 10 years and specifically with many trans and gender-variant communities, on a municipal and national level. I have seen no correlation between trans identity, gender variant identity, or dysphoria, and Enneagram types. It's occured to me to look for it, but I haven't seen anything. I've met hundreds of trans individuals and E type seems as random as the general population.
In terms of non-trans gay men, the most flamboyently dressed are often 7s and sometimes 4w3's, but I think this has more to do with E's impact on anyone's personal aesthetic expression than gender/sexuality. Go to a party of any population and the peacocks will often be 7s and 4w3s.
Putting trans and gay stuff aside...
Among non-trans heterosexual people, female 5's seem to be the least to find it necessary to meet gender stereotype in appearance and behavior, if I was to generalize about people in real life. Though I've met a couple 5w4 women who really worked the femme fatale thing as well. In terms of male 2's and 4's, I understand theoretically why that might be, but I don't see it in real life. They seem like other men, the 4's may be a little weird or brooding, but 4 women are often weird, so I don't think the perceived weirdness is due necessarily to gender perceptions. With male 2's I see how 2 motivations can meet gender expectations, resulting in men who are perhaps too possessive and eager to provide. All the het female 8's I have known were gregarious and/or bossy, but very hetero-normative.
The best way out is always through.
4w3
sx/so
4-8-7
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~lee~
Member
USA
8178 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2009 : 11:12:31 PM
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| I'll look for that book, Astral, and thanks for your post. |
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shakti
Member
USA
10594 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 12:58:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by aestrivex
i feel basically androgynous most of the time.
My theory is that 5w6 who is mostly in the head (had not done work that involves being in the body and identifying with the body's gender or at least acknowledging that it is the prevailing reality of the humans around or who has been in a relationship with someone for whom gender identity is much more concrete) will most likely have an abstract sense of self that is identified with thoughts and this is a mostly gender neutral space. This is definitely indicative of my early life experience. The difference between someone who uses a car for travel and perhaps curiously over time develops an affinity or other relationship with it versus someone else for whom the model of the car is their identity somehow. A focus on different aspects of reality.
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thepeacemaker
Member
USA
1381 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 01:27:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
I was in a conversation the other night about gender so it's serendipitous that this book showed up.
I've never strongly identified with being female, although my body is about as stereotypically female as one can have. And my mothers attempts to socialize me as a young lady when I was a teenager were acutely painful. Honestly, I didn't want to pay attention to all that body stuff.
It seemed like guys had it easier (I know now that's not necessarily true) in that they got more respect. It was better to be male if you wanted to "be somebody" in the world, or so it seemed.
What about those of us who are trying to be nobodies?  Being male can be an obstacle in that respect.
9 sx/sp/so ISFP |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
15943 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 03:47:17 AM
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imagine...for a second...a variant structure that is..female soc male sp////female-male sex.
anyways..i recall seeing and hearing Tammy Faye Messner (a gay icon) on Larry King just before her death explaining the gay community saved her spiritual life.
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amber_headlights
Member
USA
900 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 3:53:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
*** Since I have been reading science fiction since 1953, I could probably convince many people that I'm a Jungian INJ, ( instead of a Jungian ISJ ) by talking about the big concepts, like stories covering million of years of evolution, or the ultimate destiny of humanity or the wonderful paradoxes of time travel and alternate worlds....
Yeah, you know, I can see how that could make someone come across as more N than S. My brother is probably the one person in my family who's most into sci-fi and he's an ISFP. You can definitely see the S in him, but the sci-fi expertise does give more of an N-ish tint. I see similar things in my department, too. The area(s) of philosophy that my department focuses on tend to make almost everyone seem N-ish, but I'll notice some are N-ish seeming S once I work more closely with them.
quote:
But, when it comes to gender identification, I show the prejudices of my type. Gender doesn't matter to me, as long as the individual can pull their weight and are self starters, willing to tackle the work that needs to be done! I avoid idlers, slackers and incompetents of whatever gender, whenever possible. A charming female slacker, is no more acceptable than a funny male time waster....
Hah, that's a good point. Slackers and incompetents drive me a little nuts, too. In my case, it's on general principle since it often doesn't affect me directly. It's ten times worse though if there's any interdependence where you work and other people slacking off then makes your job more difficult.
---
"The whole history of modern poetry is a running commentary on the following brief philosophical text: all art should become science and all science art; poetry and philosophy should be made one."
-Friedrich Schlegel |
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Rich
Member
USA
3850 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 5:22:54 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by amber_headlights
Yeah, you know, I can see how that could make someone come across as more N than S. My brother is probably the one person in my family who's most into sci-fi and he's an ISFP. You can definitely see the S in him, but the sci-fi expertise does give more of an N-ish tint. I see similar things in my department, too. The area(s) of philosophy that my department focuses on tend to make almost everyone seem N-ish, but I'll notice some are N-ish seeming S once I work more closely with them.
*** Amber, probably the surest sign of N or S, is that your brother or I, would use actual stories or novels to show how the theme was developed, not just discuss the theme in general.... 
Hah, that's a good point. Slackers and incompetents drive me a little nuts, too. In my case, it's on general principle since it often doesn't affect me directly. It's ten times worse though if there's any interdependence where you work and other people slacking off then makes your job more difficult.
*** Amber, the worst situation is where these non producers are at the same pay grade as you, and the bosses expect lots more from you, because you are a proven producer. The worst possible alternative, is where you are give a crash project and stuck with a dead head. You are set up for the blame, if it isn't done on time, because management already knows not to expect too much from the person you are stuck with.... I always asked for the lady 1W2, or the lady 6W7 ( both ESFJ ), strongly hinting to my boss that if it was that important, we needed good people working it. ( SHE knew the crew! )
/
ISTJ & SP-3W4
Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles
HER:Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles SP-2W1 ISFJ
My philosophy of life: Love will get you through.
I learned to dissemble at an early age. |
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amber_headlights
Member
USA
900 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2009 : 5:46:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich
*** Amber, the worst situation is where these non producers are at the same pay grade as you, and the bosses expect lots more from you, because you are a proven producer. The worst possible alternative, is where you are give a crash project and stuck with a dead head. You are set up for the blame, if it isn't done on time, because management already knows not to expect too much from the person you are stuck with.... I always asked for the lady 1W2, or the lady 6W7 ( both ESFJ ), strongly hinting to my boss that if it was that important, we needed good people working it. ( SHE knew the crew! )
Oh yeah, those sorts of situations are just infuriating. My husband is a "hacker for hire" (e.g. companies hire him to break into their stuff and tell them how to fix it) for a consulting firm and for the past few years has managed a team. He works from home, so I tend to hear a lot of the phone calls dealing with problems. It's a very high pressure environment, and periodically a slacker slips through the cracks and gets hired, which winds up being a huge headache.
I took a long time off before going to school. Most of the work I did tended to be in bars, or art modeling and jobs like that, but in the couple of years before I returned to school, I delved into office work for a bit. The worst was when I was in the problem resolution department of the mortgage division of a bank. I worked with tons of slackers that would do whatever necessary to just get rid of the customers. I even had one person say that the reason she'd been there so long was because, when she was a waitress, people would complain to her boss and she'd get in trouble, but at the bank, it was a lot harder for them to complain, so she could get away with more. ?!? It drove me nuts, since I wanted to do a good job and was always cleaning up people's messes...
---
"The whole history of modern poetry is a running commentary on the following brief philosophical text: all art should become science and all science art; poetry and philosophy should be made one."
-Friedrich Schlegel |
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.ron4
Member
11625 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 03:04:35 AM
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When growing up I always liked science fiction
but I was always glad I was a male and still am.
My fantasies have always been in other areas
and quite fiction but gender has become a non-
issue. Not that I would take or leave females
no, I would always take em, always.
arfoarfoarfoar~ |
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awakening
Member
USA
2503 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 12:00:10 PM
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| I think I have a sort of gender neutrality or blindness. I'm hypersensitive to sexuality and intimacy, but gender seems SO (influenced), sex seems SP (bodily); and I don't mean the act of sexual intercourse, but the physical form of male or female. |
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Classi
Member
340 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 12:59:03 PM
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I have always felt both strongly masculine and feminine, with a strong sense of how masculine/feminine people I meet are. Im drawn to exteme male and female archetypes in fiction. But that is all they are to me; fictional archetypes. Constructed ideal exaggerations of supposed "natural" characteristics( I don't know where I stand on this, and would be embarrassed to talk as if I knew anything about neuroscience with someone who helped map the human genome). Masculinity and femininity are pretty ideals for me to have fun with in a kind of Virginia Woolf Orlando way. I don't take them seriously as ideals that people should strive to be, or even could "keep up" continuously.
I have always had a stereotypically masculine world view, and stereotypical male interests. I could talk to my dad about tanks, guns, WWII, Doctor who. I'm good with maps and systems.
However, I can also spend 2 hours on the phone listening to a female friend talk about her day(and enjoy it!) whilst sharing my feelings.
I guess I'm slightly confused :S
I have very female mannerisms, expressive hand movements, and a tendency to make that "Uhhh" sound with my mouth open in disbelief if someone has just insulted me (that's probably the girliest thing I do). I also come accross as gentle and smile alot. I think girls smile more in general.
However, I'm perfectly happy as I am, and with the way everyone I meet is. I notice how masculine or feminine people I meet are, but I never wish they were another way, or feel uncomfortable with them. Generally speaking I get on very well with other gay men, lesbians, hetero women, and the majority of straight men. The only time I run into trouble is with straight men who have invested so much of their identity in being "macho" that even being in the same room with me would be a threat to them.
They spend a considerable amount of time talking about how manly they are, how much they love sports, how certain men are a threat to the male image etc etc It is this level of over-description which prompts me to think "Why don't you just get on with being manly instead of having to talk about it continuously, or attack people for not being as you are".
In regard to my E-type, sometimes it is hard being a male four because men aren't expected to be so sensitive to personal slights against them. It's easier for women to make people walk on eggshells around them(although I admit, most the girls I know don't do this).
Just a quick observation, but I have noticed female fours tend to have a little more confidence then male ones...
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Edited by - Classi on 23 Jul 2009 9:34:17 PM |
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empty party
Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2009 : 1:11:35 PM
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I'm not sure... I feel basically more feminine than masculine, more androgynous than gender specific. I've always felt pressure to be perfectly feminine, because somehow from a fairly young age I have felt...trapped, in my body, and therefore felt its constructs as essential to my identity... I hope that makes some semblance of sense. But that also has made me tune into what was expected of being a female, and I've always felt I fell a little short of that. I was talking to a friend about what femininity implied, and she said she could feel it in her body somehow... Which struck a chord with me because it often feels as though women who feel ultra feminine to me seem more receptive to and appreciative of physical luxury, pampering... That kind of thing just makes me want to escape, I feel far more comfortable in my mind than my body, I imagine due to feeling trapped in it as I said I have. For that matter I also need a lot of space and I certainly don't think I am the most intimate of people, so that's not stereotypically feminine, either, I guess. But I'm also far from aggressive, which I understand is associated with femininity, and I try best as I can to be nice and I'm clearly emotional even if in a subdued way. I have a pretty feminine personality... But physically I don't feel very feminine, I guess I'm attempting to say.
INFP 4w5 so/sx |
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Topic |
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Etype and gender identification
