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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 8:19:14 PM
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So about this seeming paradox where 9's want to be seen, yet fear it. Like on gorgeousboast's thread we've got NineishMan saying he could run naked through the street and not be noticed, but yet the whole disappearing-into-the-woodwork seems to be also a protective mechanism?
Now certainly there are plenty of strange-seeming juxtapositions in other types too, including my own (2w1). In fact, our strange juxtapositions are probably at or near the core of every type. So I am not slamming on 9's for this. It sounds absolutely agonizing, which is probably why I'm posting this.
So my question to you 9's is... for those of us who are not your parents, i.e. cannot fill that childhood void, what does register for you (personally or type generalization) as a kind of attention that is affirming but not threatening? The 9's I've known have been certainly unique and in most cases, noticed and liked by most people around them. I have a coworker who I think is a 9w1 who is probably the only person in my work group (~2 dozen people) whom everyone likes. So is it a matter that 9's have trouble recognizing positive attention and letting it soak in, or is there some specific way you secretly wish for people to behave toward you when you are in that protective withdrawn place? I've been assuming that when a 9 "checks out" they really want to be left the heck alone, but maybe I'm wrong? Out here [edit: "out here" meaning outside of your inner sanctum], we're not getting many cues off of you (or at least I'm not) as to how you'd like us to show that we notice and like you. Any pointers you can give will be much appreciated. |
Edited by - manda7panda on 28 Sep 2009 8:25:56 PM |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 8:38:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manda7panda
So my question to you 9's is... for those of us who are not your parents, i.e. cannot fill that childhood void, what does register for you (personally or type generalization) as a kind of attention that is affirming but not threatening?
Eye-contact and a smile; sometimes a hug.
[Stormy] |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 8:47:12 PM
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XOXO
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Edited by - .ron4 on 28 Sep 2009 10:07:48 PM |
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banja
Member
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2009 : 11:23:39 PM
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Nowadays, the not being noticed thing is not really the main issue for me. I don't usually feel like NineishMan, where I could grow two more ears and no one would notice. If it happens, it's because I want it.
Mostly nowadays I feel like I am to people as this object, sort of like a fuzzy wiggly green ball, you know. People look at me, kinda notice me, and they say: "Hmm, that's a nice little fuzzy ball. " and that's it. And mostly it's fine with me, I like not having to be in the center and responsible for people's attention. But I can't seem to get myself to be more when I'm with people...it's not like I pretend to be someone I'm not or I say what I don't mean...I just don't say what I could say and should say....because the part responsible for saying/doing those kinds of things is somewhere off at Winnie's house or something. So, as a result, people don't notice the "full" me, I guess. And then when that happens it makes me wanna avoid them, and ring up Winnie's house, and tell myself "where the heck were you, butthead!"
As far as you or others doing something about noticing...I don't think you have to do anything special. In my case, it all depends on me.
Maybe the only thing I can suggest is when a Nine asserts themselves, and you know they say/do something that is hard for them to say/do, then really listen, don't stop them or judge them right off, and be patient. Encouragement helps too...You don't have to push them or baby them...just when they do/say something out of ordinary for them or self-expressive, take a notice, smile maybe. You don't have to say anything. |
Edited by - banja on 28 Sep 2009 11:27:33 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 01:26:37 AM
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 08:43:04 AM
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I'd amplify the paradox you present.
Because of their history of not being-seen, 9s develop an unconscious desire to be 100%-seen. But no other person is capable of such perfection of seeing another.
Simultaneously, when a 9 casts an inward glance at what they'd like others to see, the uppermost contents appear as a soup of multiple mergings with outside entities, instead of the self - there's some sense of a scramble to find the 'me' that would/could be seen.
The fading-into-the-background is also a default setting for 9s in such a way that it would take another (fully-conscious) person who is seeing the 360-degree being of the 9 so as not to slip into the typical dynamic where the attention given to the 9 begins to fade away...again.
The bigger point is that you can't do much for a neurotic. They have to decide to do it themselves.
********* / *
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NineishMan
Member
Belgium
79 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 09:05:14 AM
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Thanks for opening this discussion Manda7Panda! I'll try to reply as best as i can...
I think Stormy is spot on! Not having eye-contact when talking to someone feels very uncomfortable. Physical contact is very important to me: a hug, or a hand in my back, so i can feel my boundaries, so i can feel i'm an entity.
As for not being noticed, i think i'm less withdrawn than most Nines, due to my stacking and my 8-wing. I can only imagine one reason for not being noticed: to stay out of trouble. I also don't need to be noticed for what i do; like a Two or a Three does. I just wanna be seen and heard when i need it, i wanna be respected. I feel murderous anger (again! ) when people don't listen to what i have to say, when people don't respect my opinion etc. In a group setting i remain silent 99% of the times, so WHEN i (finally) have to say something, i want everyone's attention, otherwise i feel very disrespected. When it's about opinions, i can understand many, too many opinions, and i even forget mine. So when i finally tell my opinion, i want people to respect mine, in fact, i sometimes even expect people to go along with me, to follow me, to take me as their leader. It happened a few times in the past: while i was disengaged at first, i engaged myself because i felt respected, and suddenly i became the leader of the whole project. It never lasted long though, because i can't bear the stress, but these were life-altering experiences. Being noticed suddenly became threatening, because of some people's hostility. Deep inside of me, i wish i could lead some kind of project i could engage myself in, without all the stress it causes from other people's hostility.
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 12:10:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by NineishMan
I think Stormy is spot on! Not having eye-contact when talking to someone feels very uncomfortable. Physical contact is very important to me: a hug, or a hand in my back, so i can feel my boundaries, so i can feel i'm an entity.
Stormy and NineishMan, I will try to work on the eye contact, pats-on-the-back and keeping an antenna up for when a hug might be appropriate. This is very helpful for me to know.
quote:
when i finally tell my opinion, i want people to respect mine, in fact, i sometimes even expect people to go along with me, to follow me, to take me as their leader.
As foolish as I feel saying it, I have made a point to respect my coworker's preferences when she expresses them (maybe twice a year on average) but was not on the ball enough to do the same for her opinions.  Of course when I agree with her opinions it is easy for me to respect them (although with my boundary issues I might seem like trying to take them over? as in "preach it sister! and furthermore..." (does the "and furthermore" feel like I am taking your opinion away from you?)
Also, would you expand, please, on how to show I respect your/her opinion when I disagree with it? i.e. respecting you and your right to that opinion, while expressing my own? How to affirm you as a person, and affirm your expressing of your opinion, when I don't agree with your opinion?
Thanks again for your input, all... this is very helpful for me. |
Edited by - manda7panda on 29 Sep 2009 12:14:46 PM |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 1:33:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
The bigger point is that you can't do much for a neurotic. They have to decide to do it themselves.
I do certainly agree about that. I have learned better than to think I can "fix" people or get past the filters they have put on reality (no more than they can get past mine  ) but in cases where there are certain things that will make it through the filter in a positive way... that's what I'm going for. That's what I hear Stormy and NineishMan describing.
Thanks also for your elaboration/fleshing-out of the way the notice/non-notice dilemma feels from the inside. |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 1:38:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
XOXO
.ron4,
I'm not sure how to interpret your reply, but it seems like it would be screamingly ironic for me to ignore it, especially in a thread like this!
So, would you like to elaborate, or should I just give you a smile in return? |
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Functianalyst
Member
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 4:26:30 PM
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Being seen literally? No! Being acknowledged for my work, efforts and sacrifices, absolutely. I like it when my boss praises me for my work, but I would accept the raise and promotions. Sometimes my children just need to say thank you for the dinner or my SO affirms a well cooked meal. That's enough for me. Back to the whole notion of needing to be seen, when I want attention (consciously or unconsciously), I know what to do to get it. Otherwise with attention comes social indebtedness somehow. No thanks.
9so/sp |
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Dopple
Member
283 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 5:29:58 PM
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In the past I preferred to be acknowledged for my work. I was attractive when I was young, but I felt very uncomfortable when people said anything. It made me blush and scared. Now that I'm in my forties, I take praise much better, although I'm not sure who I am now. But the nicest and most comfortable praise that I receive is centered on what I do. Work or help or cook.
And the type of thank you's I like best are time, snuggles, hugs and good conversation. A nice bottle of wine is always appreciated.
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 8:33:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Functianalyst
Being seen literally? No! Being acknowledged for my work, efforts and sacrifices, absolutely. I like it when my boss praises me for my work, but I would accept the raise and promotions. Sometimes my children just need to say thank you for the dinner or my SO affirms a well cooked meal. That's enough for me. Back to the whole notion of needing to be seen, when I want attention (consciously or unconsciously), I know what to do to get it. Otherwise with attention comes social indebtedness somehow. No thanks.
9so/sp
there you go!
A smile to let you know I agree, ok ?
I think I'm so. last.
Ron
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 8:48:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manda7panda
quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
XOXO
.ron4,
I'm not sure how to interpret your reply, but it seems like it would be screamingly ironic for me to ignore it, especially in a thread like this!
So, would you like to elaborate, or should I just give you a smile in return?
I'm in my head alot so actually the reply
was for 'stormy' cause he was alluding to being type "9".
Although I'v not seen Stormy as needing hugs as I see other 9s do.
I myself like to be validated in some ways here on the board
but more for the way I'm understanding and communicating .
I have always seen 9s as fragile and thought to be gentle
even if it doesn't come across as such I still think of them
that way mostly.
I have learned to respect the 9s choice to be invisible at times
and at the same time I resent them for not being here but then
wanting to be seen just when they choose to be also.
Enough.
Ron
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panda
Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2009 : 10:10:30 PM
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I remember an incident long ago that seriously confused myself. After a science test in which half the class failed, everyone was telling the teacher that the test was "impossible," and that he should make it easier. In reply, he told them I had aced the test. Everyone's attention focused on me and two emotions hit me simultaneously. Although I felt good, I wanted to run away and hide in a corner.
My guess is that in order to keep the peace, 9s generally devalue themselves as a side-effect. "If I don't matter, then neither do events that effect me so I can just continue to ignore everything." With low self-value, attention loved by the 9s but 9s self-defence mechanism hates it.
9w1 sp/so |
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Wild Cherry Blossom
Member
United Kingdom
19 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 09:39:31 AM
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hi manda
I know... here I am popping up in a post about 9s....! It's odd, but although I relate more to other types (as my previous posts testify,) I'm coming round to the conclusion that it all points to 9. Plenty of other people have said it about me. Sometimes it takes a while to see it yourself. In any case, perhaps it's wise to take my response below with a few grains of salt, just in case my assessment is wrong again!
For me, although I may fantasise about being seen in quite a public open way, I would want to sink into the ground if that happened in real life. The way I like to be seen in real life, is quietly. What I mean is someone else has to be at least as quiet or if it is humanly possible (it may not be!) quieter than me for me to feel I am being seen. I don't come out of hiding except on rare occasions when there is a more extraverted presence in the room with me. I can't help but experience that situation as being all about them. This doesn't mean that I wish others would be less extraverted, I don't in the slightest, I want people to feel they can be just as they are, most of the time I don't want to be seen anyway, but if I'm going to appear, I have to have less going on in the environment or there just isn't room for me. This isn't like a conscious choice, it's just the way my awareness works.
WCB |
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NineishMan
Member
Belgium
79 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2009 : 12:27:30 PM
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I relate quite a lot with Panda's story about not wanting to be the best, and certainly not wanting that kind of attention. I'm not sure it's about low self-value. Possibly it is, cause i have no idea what my "value" is ... hell, i don't even know who i am!! I think (in my case, at least) it's all about staying out of trouble, cause if i'm the best one time, people could expect me to be the best every time. And that's causing me a lot of stress, causing me to disintegrate to Six, causing me to become fearful, causing me to loose my inner peace.
Wild Cherry Blossom:
What you seem to have about quietness, i do seem to have about slowness. I do see myself as rather an extravert. I have no problem doing a monologue for a crowded room, IF the environment is slow enough, IF there is no hostility and IF i am on top of the situation, although i remain very unimpressed about myself (as if i don't matter, as if - even in that situation - i don't really exist). In a group session or a meeting however, things often go to fast for me, so i remain silent and prefer to stay quiet and unnoticed. It's like the world is going too fast, like people are too competitive, too hard-working, too hostile, too demanding ... so when that happens, i check out...
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP |
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Habanero
Member
1197 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 9:30:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manda7panda
So about this seeming paradox where 9's want to be seen, yet fear it. Like on gorgeousboast's thread we've got NineishMan saying he could run naked through the street and not be noticed, but yet the whole disappearing-into-the-woodwork seems to be also a protective mechanism?
Now certainly there are plenty of strange-seeming juxtapositions in other types too, including my own (2w1). In fact, our strange juxtapositions are probably at or near the core of every type. So I am not slamming on 9's for this. It sounds absolutely agonizing, which is probably why I'm posting this.
So my question to you 9's is... for those of us who are not your parents, i.e. cannot fill that childhood void, what does register for you (personally or type generalization) as a kind of attention that is affirming but not threatening? The 9's I've known have been certainly unique and in most cases, noticed and liked by most people around them. I have a coworker who I think is a 9w1 who is probably the only person in my work group (~2 dozen people) whom everyone likes. So is it a matter that 9's have trouble recognizing positive attention and letting it soak in, or is there some specific way you secretly wish for people to behave toward you when you are in that protective withdrawn place? I've been assuming that when a 9 "checks out" they really want to be left the heck alone, but maybe I'm wrong? Out here [edit: "out here" meaning outside of your inner sanctum], we're not getting many cues off of you (or at least I'm not) as to how you'd like us to show that we notice and like you. Any pointers you can give will be much appreciated.
I very much dislike being the center of attention and I honestly don't have a reason why. I do like when people notice things that I may do exceptionally well. And praise is okay here and there. But I think there is a way of being noticed that doesn't require being front and center. Also, it is such a subconscious thing for me to blend in that it's not something I do actively or seek. It seems so ingrained that I really don't know that I'm doing it.
I was a little show off as a three year old. I played Suzuki violin and had no performance anxiety and was really outgoing and talkative. I don't know what happened to that kid. My Nine childhood friend who also played violin grew up to be an accomplished violinist who loooved to perform, but yet had a hard time taking praise and compliments. All kinds of Nines I guess. |
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Teneo
Member
USA
678 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2009 : 5:46:06 PM
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Being needed; being recognized for being useful.
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"The truth is a snare--you cannot have it, without being caught. You cannot have the truth in such a way that you catch it, but only in such a way that it catches you." -Søren Kierkegaard |
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maureen
Member
94 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 7:38:44 PM
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An interessting thread and an interesting question, manda7panda.
The question itself gives me the feeling of being seen.
I wish more people in rl would aks questions like that, they express a genuine interest.
The answer/My viewpoint.
Actually, I love being seen, noticed and valued! I do not wish not to be seen. I enjoy to speak in front of an audience about a topic that I have a passion for. I had two times the ocassion that I was allowed to present a film that I made and talk about the film in front of the audience afterwards. Although before entering the stage, I am nervous as hell, as soon as I start to speak and feel the undewided attention of the audience, I enjoy it very much.
It gives me positive adrenaline....the rewarding feeling when you make the audience laugh...to feel that you are the focus of their attention.
Among a group of friends who appreciate me for what I am, I am quite often the centre of attention as well, or like a friend of mine put it: "You are close to the spotlight"
Their attention and positive resonance brings out the best in me.
When I feel that the energy/the focuss of the group is drifting away from me, I somehow become sullen, (maybe because it reminds me of he inner pain of being ignored) Then I drift of. A friend of mine gave me the feedback, that I then appear aloof and unreachable.
Maybe I start behaving this way, because i fear that people don't value me, when I am not fully involved in the conversation, or if their attention is not shed upon me. That somehow hurts and thus I withdraw and hold back!
And there are other situation for example in a group of people I don't know well. If I fail to make a good start in the beginning, the famous and important first impression, and the group thus reacts/better to say: doesn't react towards me accordingly I become more and more withdrawn, and I hold myself back. I am somehow encapsulated in myself. This leads to the situation that the others don't see me, since I don't express myself and hold back the interesting stories that I have. So, I guess they perceive me as someone who is shy, maybe as someone who doens't have to say anything. And consequently, they ignore me. By feeling ignored, I drift off, I get into my own world, somewhat passive aggressively and think: "Allright, if you don't take any interest in me, I am not going to reveal my interesting self to you. That is your missed opportunity. You are missing ME! Shame on you! Why don't you ask me tha right questions, questions that get me out of my shell!......etc"
I am really feeling sad, because they don't see me. And at the same time I cannot get out of this resignation. I cannot take the action.
What would help me in that case, would be positive energy from the group. If they give me the feeling that they accept me for what I am, and that they are truly interested in me, and if they would focuss their attenton on me, I would be able to be my real, interesting, joking and charming self.
The more positive attention I get, the more visible I become!
It is not (how people often say about nines) that I fear attention, it is the opposite! Attention combined with an openminded and loving attitude brings out the best in me!
At the same time I know, that it is my responsibility, to make myself visible even if the others don't give me that above described feeling. If I would come out of the shell and reveal myself without being afraid to be judged by the others, then the others would also get the chance to perceive me in a different way and as a result would be more interessted in me and give me more attention!
The more I write about this, the clearer it becomes:
I put this expectation on others:
I want them to see me and I want them to show this to me and give me the feeling of being important.
That is my condition to come out and show myself.
I wish I wouldn't be that dependent on the open-hearted, welcoming atmosphere from others.
I want to be myself, no matter what the outward conditions are.
When people are interested in what I say and when they give me their attention, it energizes me.
If they ignore me..., I loose energy, become insecure and withdraw.
And then I fullfill the image they have from be according to that first impression. It is a trap! But I then tend to act acording to how they think me to be (withdrawn, insecure)
Fortunately this happens less and less, because I become more and more secure of myself! Still, sometimes there is thi strap.
When people really see me, the inside of me, and if they ask the right questions and are genuinely interested in me and listen to what I have to say with full attention, that's the biggest present that they could make me.
And: If people are willing to see all aspects of myself.
I will give you an example.
I incidently met this older woman. She gave me her attention, she was fully present and focussed on me. In this atmosphere I told her about my wories, my fears...
She listened, she shared her experience and at the end she thanked me for sharing a part of myself with her! That was so wonderful and i am so greatful for that.
Another situation.
By incident, at night I met a wonderful 5w4 that I have known for some years. We had long and interesting conversations, but I was never really talking about myself, we used to share believes...
But this time it was different. He asked me if I had any question inside of myself. And if I wanted to tell him about my questions, maybe he could provide an answer. I felt awkward at first, I told him that I was ashamed to tell him, but he just replied, that he would not judge be, that my question was safe...
So I told him, and he listened with this magnificent 5w4 intensity, gave me his feedback about what he had observed in my former behaviours and what he sees now...And he didn't judge, it was such a welcoming and loving atmosphere and I truly felt seen...
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Edited by - maureen on 08 Oct 2009 7:56:08 PM |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 8:23:28 PM
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Thanks for sharing that, Maureen A lot of feeling came through in your post.
As a result of this thread I have been trying to make sure to pay attention with the eye contact and smile for my 9w1 coworker - not in a forced way, just paying attention to these behaviors. I've realized how often I talk to her while doing something else instead of stopping and looking directly at her. I also realized that I have sometimes been more concerned with how she might respond to me, than with truly attending to her. It has really drawn my attention to little important ways that I have not been present to her, while inwardly feeling frustrated that I thought she wasn't present to me. I know these small changes in my attention have made a difference at least to me, as there have been a few moments when I felt like somehow she peeked out from behind the curtain, something in her smile that seemed to say there was an actual connection there and not just a social-niceties smile. I hope it's not my imagination but I think it's actual.
So I thank each of you who have offered advice and insight (and those who may do so in the future too).
2w1 - ENFP |
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maureen
Member
94 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 8:41:47 PM
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Hello panda,
thanks or the recognition ;)
quote:
I've realized how often I talk to her while doing something else instead of stopping and looking directly at her.
I don't like that. Years ago I was calling (telephone) a friend.
After a while I jumped over my shadow and told her about a problem, I had...While talking I heard the tapping noise of the keypad. When I asked her, what that was, she said that she was meanwhile correcting her essay on the computer.
That really made me sad.
Nowadays, I would vent my disappointment and rather end the telefoncall.
If I share something important , I want the person to stop doing things and only listen to me!!! That's important.
A few weeks ago, I was in a group of people (all strangers) we we were talking about religious topics. While I was talking two other girls were talking privately, which made me angry. So I told them that I didn't like it wehn they didn't listen while I speak.
They felt embarrassed...
For me it's important to state my point. |
Edited by - maureen on 08 Oct 2009 8:46:18 PM |
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NineishMan
Member
Belgium
79 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 07:41:05 AM
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Hi Maureen!
First of all, i'd like to thank you for your post.
quote:
It is not (how people often say about nines) that I fear attention, it is the opposite! Attention combined with an openminded and loving attitude brings out the best in me!
I think this is typically what most people don't understand about us. I think we Nines wanna be seen for what we ARE (our intrinsic value), while Threes wanna be seen for what they do. Hence the difference: Threes will do whatever it takes to be noticed (healthy ones through hard work and accomplishments, less healthy ones through image and cosmetics). But we Nines wanna be seen without the hard work, without the accomplishments, without all that cosmetic stuff. So we expect people to do the effort to see us, or at least to meet somewhere halfway.
9w8 Sx/So/Sp ESFP |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 07:41:58 AM
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It was always easy for me to drop what I was doing and be fully present for "big" things, e.g. expressing frustration over project troubles, people issues, etc. I think that came automatically because it triggered my type Two thing - oh, someone needs me, *bing!* here I am... But recently I have been paying attention to being present for everyday stuff like the morning "hey how are you" etc. I used to feel frustrated that she didn't give me a "real" answer to "how are you" - now I think, how could she know I meant it, if I am busy sweetening my tea, etc? My body language did not communicate that I was actually interested, when it was "small" stuff. But in a sense, with regard to relationships, the small stuff is the big stuff.
2w1 - ENFP |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 07:46:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by NineishMan
we Nines wanna be seen without the hard work, without the accomplishments, without all that cosmetic stuff. So we expect people to do the effort to see us
And they should because you are a person and that is reason enough to be seen.
On top of that, I have yet to meet a Nine who wasn't a really groovy person. 
2w1 - ENFP |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2009 : 08:06:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manda7panda
On top of that, I have yet to meet a Nine who wasn't a really groovy person.
As in 'gets stuck in a groove'?
- 
[Stormy] |
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Question for 9's about being noticed
