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hildegard
Member
20 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 6:39:26 PM
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I've heard people hint at certain trouble spots of the 9 that go beyond the typical passivity, numbness, and inertia that we associate with troubled 9's.
Can someone please explain some of these to me?
For example, I'm know I have certain obsessive tendencies when I'm under stress. I can become rather 5-like about collecting information and gathering data. I had assumed that this was just because I had a strong 5 side, but I read somewhere that these obsessive tendencies are also associated with 9's. Why is that?
And in another thread, a commenter mentioned "the shadow side of E9...the desire to disturb." Can anyone explain how this fits in with the rest of the 9 psyche? I have a little bit of the 5w4's fascination with the macabre, and I wonder if that is actually somehow a 9 trait. What does this have to do with stacking?
Oh, and I don't know if this will help at all, but this is a collection of images that I've found online that I think really represent my tastes, dipping into that darker side of my personality frequently: http://raabia.tumblr.com/
9w1 sx |
Edited by - hildegard on 10 Oct 2009 6:42:51 PM |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 6:46:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
For example, I'm know I have certain obsessive tendencies when I'm under stress. I can become rather 5-like about collecting information and gathering data. I had assumed that this was just because I had a strong 5 side, but I read somewhere that these obsessive tendencies are also associated with 9's. Why is that?
'Auto-pilot'?
[Stormy] |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 7:45:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
Oh, and I don't know if this will help at all, but this is a collection of images that I've found online that I think really represent my tastes, dipping into that darker side of my personality frequently: http://raabia.tumblr.com/
9w1 sx
I was screwing up my courage in order to click on the link. I thought it was going to be, like, you know, disturbing or something. (I'm really very sensitive.)
Anyway, I think the dark side of Nine manifests as a willingness to stand back and let really bad things happen, or to passively go along with them. Even when they could intercede, they don't. Even when it is their responsibility, they don't see it. Because they are so nice (every one knows they are just so nice) they couldn't be responsible for anything really bad. They refuse to own their own power. So even when they truly are responsible, they sleep well at night, knowing that they couldn't have done anything really bad. They are too nice. Meanwhile the spouse continues to abuse the children. The company continues to defraud its employees. Or the commander in chief allows his vice president to authorize the torture of "enemy" combatants in the aftermath of an unnecessary war that should never have been prosecuted in the first place.
But, like I said, that's the dark side. Most Nines really are pretty nice. |
Edited by - marie on 10 Oct 2009 7:55:46 PM |
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.ron4
Member
9124 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 8:04:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
For example, I'm know I have certain obsessive tendencies when I'm under stress. I can become rather 5-like about collecting information and gathering data. I had assumed that this was just because I had a strong 5 side, but I read somewhere that these obsessive tendencies are also associated with 9's. Why is that?
'Auto-pilot'?
[Stormy]
Puttering ?
RON |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 8:42:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Anyway, I think the dark side of Nine manifests as a willingness to stand back and let really bad things happen, or to passively go along with them
My best friend in high school(type nine) was completely oblivious to the fact that her friend(not me btw) was being viciously bullied. All the evidence under her nose and she didn't realise or do anything. She would hang out with the people who were BULLYING HER FRIEND. There are things about type four I hate so I'm not a hypocrite when I say the following statement...
... That often with nines my desire is to grab hold and shake violently!!!!!!! |
Edited by - Classi on 10 Oct 2009 8:44:00 PM |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 8:53:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
fascination with the macabre
Not criticising your thread or anything, I think exploring the dark side of nines is an interesting proposal  , but I have noticed that almost everyone of every type is fascinated by the macabre whether they admit it or not. It seems to be a part of human nature that while we are looking forwards at ways to better ourselves we are forever looking back over our shoulders to the denigrated and disturbing, with some types more willing to admit it than others.
I think when we observe it in nines it may be more of a shock  like the five year old I heard yesterday talking about how fun it would be if his toy monster truck was real with spikes on the front so he could mow people down with it  |
Edited by - Classi on 10 Oct 2009 8:56:10 PM |
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hildegard
Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 8:56:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
I was screwing up my courage in order to click on the link. I thought it was going to be, like, you know, disturbing or something. (I'm really very sensitive.)
Aw! I didn't mean disturbing in that way. I just mean not sunshine and rainbows... I think I might have a one or two crime scene photos in there, a photograph from a butcher shop, a few things like that, but really there's very little gore. Sorry to make it sound like that... My "disturbing" aesthetic is more Hitchcock than Hostel, if that makes sense.
9w1 sx |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 9:04:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
quote:
Originally posted by marie
I was screwing up my courage in order to click on the link. I thought it was going to be, like, you know, disturbing or something. (I'm really very sensitive.)
Aw! I didn't mean disturbing in that way. I just mean not sunshine and rainbows... I think I might have a one or two crime scene photos in there, a photograph from a butcher shop, a few things like that, but really there's very little gore. Sorry to make it sound like that... My "disturbing" aesthetic is more Hitchcock than Hostel, if that makes sense.
9w1 sx
Yes, I do understand. I was giving you a hard time.(Sorry!) I think it's an unfair misrepresentation of Nines to think of them as being all about butterflies and rainbows, puppies kissing kitties and big eyed girls holding bouquets of flowers.
Guillermo del Toro is a Nine and Pan's Labyrinth is very dark indeed. Although he, himself kind of looks like a hobbit:
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
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hildegard
Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 10:53:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Guillermo del Toro is a Nine and Pan's Labyrinth is very dark indeed. Although he, himself kind of looks like a hobbit
Hah! That's histerical -- especially considering hobbits are kind of 9ish creatures to begin with.
And to go back to the points you originally made about 9's sleeping well at night through acts of evil really rang true. I suddenly could see them being not just see a 9 being harmful but a proper villain of bureaucratic variety.
9w1 sx |
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hildegard
Member
20 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2009 : 11:15:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
'Auto-pilot'?
[Stormy]
Puttering ?
Well, not in the way I do it, at least. For example, during the election, I was checking multiple polling websites multiple times a day. I had an excel sheet to keep track of numbers. I was paying attention to not just national polls but to state polls and senate races too. So there is obsessive in that sense...
A typer community recently placed Matilda (from the Roald Dahl story) as a 9w1. They might be wrong (who knows) but I definitely recognized in her my tendency to quietly drift along until interrupted and then secretly and passive-aggressively plot my revenge on whoever bothered me. Sometimes it takes quite of bit of planning, usually it doesn't.
An example: An aggressive 8w7 who was my superior in work continued to berate me for what I assure you were non-issues. He was a large man who had recently had a gastric bypass surgery. My desk was near the candy bowl. He (a non-christian) argued with me about the christmas-themed candy in the bowl, but he never could resist grabbing a chocolate or two. So, when Easter approached, I bought three times the amount of candy we normally would and kept the candy bowl stocked full. By summer, he was fatter around the waist and guiltier for indulging in gentile sweets. It was harmless, but it made me feel better.
That's the other kind of obsessive I can be. Holding on to information or gathering new information for months until I can get my "revenge."
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9w1 sx |
Edited by - hildegard on 11 Oct 2009 01:10:01 AM |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 05:35:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
Oh, and I don't know if this will help at all, but this is a collection of images that I've found online that I think really represent my tastes, dipping into that darker side of my personality frequently: http://raabia.tumblr.com/
Wistful.
[Stormy] |
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bear
Member
USA
4072 Posts |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 10:36:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
I've heard people hint at certain trouble spots of the 9 that go beyond the typical passivity, numbness, and inertia that we associate with troubled 9's.
Can someone please explain some of these to me?
Apathy - feeling that someone else may as well not exist, and hence not making any effort to ensure they do. That, and passive-aggression.
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[Stormy] |
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UnDeR_RaDaR
Member
Thailand
79 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 10:46:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Anyway, I think the dark side of Nine manifests as a willingness to stand back and let really bad things happen, or to passively go along with them. Even when they could intercede, they don't. Even when it is their responsibility, they don't see it. Because they are so nice (every one knows they are just so nice) they couldn't be responsible for anything really bad. They refuse to own their own power. So even when they truly are responsible, they sleep well at night, knowing that they couldn't have done anything really bad. They are too nice. Meanwhile the spouse continues to abuse the children. The company continues to defraud its employees. Or the commander in chief allows his vice president to authorize the torture of "enemy" combatants in the aftermath of an unnecessary war that should never have been prosecuted in the first place.
You just described my country. Really. 
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infp 6w7 :( sorry for my poor English :) |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 11:02:23 AM
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[Stormy] |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 11:48:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by hildegard
By summer, he was fatter around the waist and guiltier for indulging in gentile sweets
Never accepting food from you evil nines again  |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 12:00:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
I don't think 9s always put up with bullying
Well of course not always and I would hope noone would get that impression from my story. I would have many good stories to tell if we were discussing the light side of the nine.
I have seen nines stand up for people in their own specific way. They tend to stand by people offering support with their presence. I have seen them stick by even the most hard to be around and unpleasant people when others would have left them alone for being too high maintenance. They are so tolerant and really quite powerful.
They mean well and they mean it 
Throughout the time her friend was being bullied, my nine friend didn't leave them alone when others would have for fear of being targetted themselves.
However, I have tended to find that when the level of conflict rises, nines become totally immobolised. I have never seen nines stand up for much directly in all honesty.
It was the level of obliviousness that shocked me, and I've only seen it once in my best friend, but it was remarkable how she couldn't acknowledge the obvious. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 12:49:29 PM
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Originally posted by bear
I don't think 9s always put up with bullying - they can sometimes be more willing to fight for someone else than they are for themselves (might apply to 8w more than 1w).
A friend of mine is an sp/so 9w1 who describes a conscious decision he made when he was about 8 years old - to put up an inner boundary between himself and others because he kept getting into fights with bullies due to his tendency to identify/inwardly-merge with people who were being bullied. It's part of what made him a 'conservative' person in his adult life, though he's simultaneously a big 'abstract systems' fanatic.
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Edited by - dfgray44 on 11 Oct 2009 12:50:23 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 1:25:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Originally posted by bear
I don't think 9s always put up with bullying - they can sometimes be more willing to fight for someone else than they are for themselves (might apply to 8w more than 1w).
A friend of mine is an sp/so 9w1 who describes a conscious decision he made when he was about 8 years old - to put up an inner boundary between himself and others because he kept getting into fights with bullies due to his tendency to identify/inwardly-merge with people who were being bullied. It's part of what made him a 'conservative' person in his adult life, though he's simultaneously a big 'abstract systems' fanatic.
********* / *
Yes...but the discussion was about the dark side of Nine. I personally don't think that a Nine's dark side really manifests in art (the "dark" art is actually a good thing.) And nobody anywhere claimed that all Nines always allow bullying...but it is absolutely the case that "the nicest people in the world" do sometimes stand back and let horrible things happen and sleep well at night because they are not responsible and even if they have witnessed it, they may be unaware.
Maybe the original poster was simply interested in pointing out that not all Nines fit a negative stereotype. They are better/more interesting than we might have thought because they have a dark side which isn't really bad, negative or harmful. I hadn't thought of that actually. I guess if you are only interested in letting the world know about the hidden (dark)wonders of type Nine, that's OK. It kind of fits the pattern under discussion. |
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Scorpionical
Member
4596 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 2:20:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
[Stormy]
yup |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2009 : 2:42:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Originally posted by bear
I don't think 9s always put up with bullying - they can sometimes be more willing to fight for someone else than they are for themselves (might apply to 8w more than 1w).
A friend of mine is an sp/so 9w1 who describes a conscious decision he made when he was about 8 years old - to put up an inner boundary between himself and others because he kept getting into fights with bullies due to his tendency to identify/inwardly-merge with people who were being bullied. It's part of what made him a 'conservative' person in his adult life, though he's simultaneously a big 'abstract systems' fanatic.
********* / *
Yes...but the discussion was about the dark side of Nine. I personally don't think that a Nine's dark side really manifests in art (the "dark" art is actually a good thing.) And nobody anywhere claimed that all Nines always allow bullying...but it is absolutely the case that "the nicest people in the world" do sometimes stand back and let horrible things happen and sleep well at night because they are not responsible and even if they have witnessed it, they may be unaware.
Maybe the original poster was simply interested in pointing out that not all Nines fit a negative stereotype. They are better/more interesting than we might have thought because they have a dark side which isn't really bad, negative or harmful. I hadn't thought of that actually. I guess if you are only interested in letting the world know about the hidden (dark)wonders of type Nine, that's OK. It kind of fits the pattern under discussion.
I assume that it's more common for 9s to sit back and let bad things happen. Mine wasn't a defense of 9s; my friend's decision to set hard boundaries embodies another neurotic 9 trait - the tendency toward 'black-and-white'ing....the idealized/merged-with others, on one side, and the non-descript ill-defined others on the other side. The idealization process registers as an inner sensation and can, therefore, be semi-consciously turned off.
My friend, in some sense, probably didn't want to know about the bully within - wanted to beat his own bully into non-existence. There's a particular kind of acute agitation that occurs for 9s as regards the issue of unfairness - you have to look away, or you feel like you'll implode just by its existence. I'm not assigning nobility to this interface with unfairness - it has more to do with resistance to integrating darkness into the self and the worldview. This is why the 9's dances with darkness can have an awkward quality to them. Alternatively, darkness can be depicted as monolithic and all-consuming.
With 9s, there's a polarity made up of black-and-white versus gray - and polarities within each of those poles. For example, within the gray polarity, there's the desire to integrate opposites (the positive pole) and the tendency to smear definitions (the negative pole).
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Dopple
Member
283 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 4:16:15 PM
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I've done things that I feel guilty about, and generally it centers around not expressing what I believe.
I.E.
I had doubts about a friend's ability to complete something. I didn't feel like arguing, although I really thought I was right, so I let them continue down a path that created failure. I didn't want to be right, I wanted them to be right, that way they would succeed. But my guilt was in not trying harder to state my opinion. The dark side of this was that in some way I thought they were being arrogant, and because I had a sense that they might fail I thought it would be a good learning process and it might teach them humility. I would try to explain my concern but they refused to hear me, and told me I was being too negative. Now that they see, I don't feel good about it, but there is a sense of "I told you so".
Same deal in another instance. I knew that my associate should check something, but they hadn't. I mentioned it briefly, and they ignored me. I was too passive to engage in a discussion so nothing happened. Later the [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] it the fan when everyone realized the design had a flaw because that same item hadn't been checked. |
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amande
Member
137 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 11:50:41 PM
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I've always kind of associated my dark side with my 1 wing ("always" as in ever since I learned about the enneagram, of course). All nines project a peaceful, nothing-gets-to-me bit; we all have that in common, but I think the less healthy you are the more false it is and the quicker it falls away, when you're hurt, leaving you seized by a violent desire for cruel revenge--which is both 1-like and 8-like, incidentally. I often feel like my 9 is just a fog/numbness/inertia that I have to fight through to get to my more productive, connected, and "real" 3-like or 1-like personality. What happens to me when I am in a place of extreme stress is related, but it's like the peaceful veneer slides away without my meaning it too to show something ugly that wants to fight--or like a scary, bloodthirsty Loch Ness Monster suddenly rises up out of & breaks the surface of a beautiful, calm lake.
Arg!!!
9w1 sp/sx INFP |
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hildegard
Member
20 Posts |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
1634 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 07:55:33 AM
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i think it is becuase on some level the passivity numbness interia and the conflict with the evironment they ae not desireing to recognize as well as whatever hurt they are receieving by thier discounting of themselves- has to release it's self in some manner.
i would interpret desire to diturb to be what we tend to term passive agressive qualities in the 9. a sort of inner rebellion that they themselves do not want to recognize as it would smash up thier whole coping dealy.
-beeotchy for fun and profit-
current lololo8 status:
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the darker side of the 9?
