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pinkladyapples
Member
153 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 9:59:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
Most Fours incite more of a response in me. They seem more exceptional, more wounded, more snobby.
But healthy fours are none of these things. When a four becomes healthy, he or she becomes a completely different animal.
Perhaps it is the social fours who are different. I for example am very goofy and laid-back. It is only when you really get to know me that you find out how sensitive and melancholy I am.
I need to escape this place for now.
4w5 so/sx4w5 so/sx |
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enneathing
Member
Australia
518 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 07:51:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by marie
quote:
Originally posted by enneathing
marie: Do you have an opinion on their stackings/wing?
I think Isabel Allende is an sx/sp Four with Three. Maybe sp/sx.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVUlJFaDpLM&feature=player_embedded
Saramago seems soc/sp Four with Five (the most intellectual Four). There's no real helpful youtube video for him.
I'm pretty certain I'm so/sp, and I'm not that intellectual. I may come across that way though, because when I'm around people I can't express myself with due to self consciousness (which is basically all people), I compensate by becoming (seemingly) overly serious, and also very awkward. Whereas, at home I'm a completely different person, always joking around and being all expressive and dramatic. I'm also quite interested in intellectual subjects like science, but I'm not disciplined enough to well at them at school. Even though I'm not particularly disciplined at this time, I'm probably healthier overall than I've ever been, and there have been times when I haven't been that healthy yet I've been reasonably disciplined (wrong intentions and attitude going on). I also have trouble focussing when it comes to doing something academic like writing an english essay or doing a maths problem. I think there was a time I would have liked to see myself as intellectual, despite underperformance at school and hardly ever doing any work, but it was just an identity thing, me trying to create a compensation for not fitting in.
Out of interest, marie, do you know any famous people, healthy or otherwise, who you believe to be 4w3 so/sp? Pretty certain I'm 4w5, but would be interesting to hear the apparent difference.
pinkladyapples: What you're describing doesn't sound like me at all; these days I might come across as laid back (I used to be so socially anxious that, particularly in large groups of peopl, I would sit as straight as possible, trying to make as little movement as possible, it was very uncomfortable and probably looked pretty bizarre), but generally social situations cause my usually (kind of) goofy and laid-back nature to disappear and be replaced by something very different.
And I like Ashton, but I don't see how he's a Four.
Scorpionical: I believe Regina is very healthy, but her oddball and quirky nature leads me to believe she's probably 4w5.
Also, I think Alanis could be 4w3, but I'd have to think about it. |
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Scorpionical
Member
4596 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 08:58:25 AM
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quote:
Scorpionical: I believe Regina is very healthy, but her oddball and quirky nature leads me to believe she's probably 4w5.
Well I'm biased I guess. She reminds me so very much of my 4w3 sister. |
Edited by - Scorpionical on 15 Oct 2009 08:59:05 AM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 10:54:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by enneathing
I'm pretty certain I'm so/sp, and I'm not that intellectual.
Maybe it's a weak correlation. Not sure really.
Out of interest, marie, do you know any famous people, healthy or otherwise, who you believe to be 4w3 so/sp? Pretty certain I'm 4w5, but would be interesting to hear the apparent difference.
Marcel Proust, E.M.Forester, Bryan Ferry (maybe he's soc/sx though)
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 3:13:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pinkladyapples
quote:
Originally posted by JoL
A healthy 4 would be doing lots of creating...spinning beautiful creations out of the ordinary. How about Don Riso?
9/1 sx/sp
A healthy four would actually not be doing lots of creating because they would see enough creativeness and beauty in their everyday existence. They would no longer need to create art to heighten their emotions.
4w5 so/sx4w5 so/sx
If you check out type descriptions and levels of health on this site, you'll see that Riso/Hudson say about type 4:
"Type Four
level 1
(At their best)
Profoundly creative..."
You can tell when someone is a healthy 4, because they'll channel their frustration (which is a common experience for 4s) into creating and making things better/beautiful.
Sometimes a person will seem like a 4, but if they're kind or optimistic and not especially frustrated/creative, they're probably not a 4.
9/1 sx/sp
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pinkladyapples
Member
153 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 8:41:37 PM
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Alanis is a 4w5.
I think some of you are misguided on what a healthy four is like. Very healthy fours are able to let go of their self-consciousness. They are able to relax and enjoy life. They are optimistic and kind. They are not frustrated.
The creativity of the four does not mean that every four is an artist; it means that fours want to bring something unique and true into the world. The medium for their creativity can be anything. It can even be themselves.
Healthy fours are creative, and may be artists. Average fours have an idealized image of being an artist, and feel the need to create actual art in order to find themselves and understand/accentuate their emotions.
4w5 so/sx4w5 so/sx |
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enneathing
Member
Australia
518 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 11:07:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pinkladyapples
Alanis is a 4w5.
Alanis seems very achievement oriented, efficient and hardworking - this doesn't mean she's not 4w5, but I don't see why people come to 4w5 so easily without considering 4w3. What characteristics of 5 do you see in Alanis? I relate a lot to her, so she very well may be 4w5.
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 11:12:47 PM
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The problem is that most of the stratospherically brilliant art of the world has been created by people of average health.
When we say that the best art comes from healthy people, this is a prayer for order in the universe. It isn't so.
This is why art is wrong, and great artists should be killed.
********* / *
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enneathing
Member
Australia
518 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 12:04:33 AM
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dfgray44, what do you consider to be stratospherically brilliant art?
I think peop of both average and healthy temperaments have been brilliantly creative, but I think the art that really changes the world for the better is done by healthy folk. |
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pinkladyapples
Member
153 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 12:24:53 AM
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Alanis is more easy going than a 4w3 would be. She is bohemian. She is more into breaking social norms than following them. She is very independent, which is typical of a 4w5 vs 4w3. She seems to have no need for attention or validation. I think she is more into being inventive than being successful with regards to her music.
4w5 so/sx4w5 so/sx |
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enneathing
Member
Australia
518 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 02:48:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pinkladyapples
Alanis is more easy going than a 4w3 would be. She is bohemian. She is more into breaking social norms than following them. She is very independent, which is typical of a 4w5 vs 4w3. She seems to have no need for attention or validation. I think she is more into being inventive than being successful with regards to her music.
4w5 so/sx4w5 so/sx
Why wouldn't a 4w3 be easy going? If anything, in some ways a 4w5 would probably be less easy going. I know some sexual 4w3s who are extremely laid back and often disregard social norms, whether intentionally or otherwise. I'm 4w5 but I have an enormous need for validation, and to a lesser extent attention. I think a lot of her music is about self expression, but I don't think the music really suggests either wing. As I relate to her lyrics so much, I think this suggests she may be 4w5. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 08:37:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by enneathing
dfgray44, what do you consider to be stratospherically brilliant art?
Here's a few: Debussy, Beethoven, Mozart, Klimt, Gershwin, Kubrick, Cole Porter, Bergman
I think peop of both average and healthy temperaments have been brilliantly creative, but I think the art that really changes the world for the better is done by healthy folk.
Healthy people are exceedingly rare. At best, I'd put the percentage at somewhere between 1% - 3% of the population. Secondly, there's no requirement of good health to produce good art - that's the bugaboo for the health-minded person as they consider artists.
The creative flash/moment is precisely when the thoughts have stopped. These 'flashes' come to people who protect and revere a place in themselves which is profoundly separate from communal norms, including ideas about 'health' and spiritual living....and even including the influence of the artist's own good health, if he attains it.
The reality of the existence of great artists is not just unfair - it's one of the very most brutal bits of unfairness there is.
********* / *
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 09:21:20 AM
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I completely agree that great art is quite often produced by people who are at "average" levels of health. This is true of scientific and philosophical discoveries as well.
I think this is somewhat misleading though, because I know for myself that I am more productive when healthier. My very most productive period was when I was happiest - not that I was a creative genius at that point, but I was closer to maximizing my individual potential. Also, when I look at other individuals in my life, Fours in particular, I find that most of them are less productive as they decline in health. Most suffering is not transmuted into art; all it does is rob us of our life force.
I think that most of the great artists would have continued to be great or have been even greater had they been happier and that there are many others who would have achieved something of worth had they been healthier. The ideal of the tortured artist was completely foreign to the ancient world, to the Renaissance period and (from what I understand) for much of the East in whatever time period. I think it's a modern phenomenon and largely western in origin. People with artistic temperaments are often enough tortured in this climate, but I am thinking that says more about our culture, or lack of it, than it does about the relationship between health and creativity. I do think that creative people are more sensitive overall, so there's always the potential for suffering, but I think there are better and worse ways of handling it.
I make one exception though - I do think there is a correlation between hypomania and creativity, but overall there's a very high cost attached to bipolar disorder. I believe there are other ways of tapping into our creative potential that we have barely begun to explore.
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 10:07:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by enneathing
dfgray44, what do you consider to be stratospherically brilliant art?
I think peop of both average and healthy temperaments have been brilliantly creative, but I think the art that really changes the world for the better is done by healthy folk.
I completely agree that great art is quite often produced by people who are at "average" levels of health. This is true of scientific and philosophical discoveries as well. Quote: Marie..
I do'nt characterize "Egon Schiele" as rather a healthy 4w3..
But his Art changes the "World", at that time..
The same for another 4w3 : Jaqueline du Pre'
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room! |
Edited by - baba on 16 Oct 2009 10:12:32 AM |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
13305 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 10:35:38 AM
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using the reversed enneagram trianglesss image....a type reverses its self from average at its apex with its unhealthly and healthy stuff at its base points
to
healthy at its apex with average and unhealthy stuff at its base points.
discovering this reversed developement of self...a healthy four realizes it has no significant flawed self and have always had everything it needs.
such a person becomes part of the conscious circle of humanity and cannot be recgonized as such by most sleeping people.
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 10:40:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
The problem is that most of the stratospherically brilliant art of the world has been created by people of average health.
When we say that the best art comes from healthy people, this is a prayer for order in the universe. It isn't so.
This is why art is wrong, and great artists should be killed.
********* / *
We can be truly grateful to live in the USA, where we have the right to bear arms.
9/1 sx/sp
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 10:44:48 AM
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We can be truly grateful to live in the USA, where we have the right to bear arms.
9/1 sx/sp
Rather tragic, these words...Think of Columbine..what ever..Gee
How many Locks, do you have Jol ?
Oh, and btw how many arms do You have ?
Truly grateful.. Gee.. i am grateful having a bike..lol
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room! |
Edited by - baba on 16 Oct 2009 10:59:36 AM |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 10:50:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pinkladyapples
Alanis is a 4w5.
I think some of you are misguided on what a healthy four is like. Very healthy fours are able to let go of their self-consciousness. They are able to relax and enjoy life. They are optimistic and kind. They are not frustrated.
The creativity of the four does not mean that every four is an artist; it means that fours want to bring something unique and true into the world. The medium for their creativity can be anything. It can even be themselves.
Healthy fours are creative, and may be artists. Average fours have an idealized image of being an artist, and feel the need to create actual art in order to find themselves and understand/accentuate their emotions.
4w5 so/sx4w5 so/sx
Level of health isn't static and we all function within a band- width. Even a "healthy" 4 will only be in the upper levels part of the time and will drop down into the average range. The 4/ego is naturally a frustrated ego. (since 4s are "frustration" types.) 4s are creative in response to frustration. If you see a laid back 4 who is never frustrated/creative, that person probably isn't a 4.
It's true that the medium is different for different 4s: dance, writing, fashion, painting, sculpture, etc., but...
I thought I was a 4 for many years. I changed my mind when I went to Part I training. I wasn't really like the 4s I met there. |
Edited by - JoL on 16 Oct 2009 10:57:49 AM |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:01:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
We can be truly grateful to live in the USA, where we have the right to bear arms.
9/1 sx/sp
Rather tragic, these words...Think of Columbine..what ever..Gee
How many Locks, do you have Jol ?
Oh, and btw how many arms do You have ?
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
I don't have any weapons...just pepper spray to defend against pit bull attacks when I'm walking my dogs.
I can't even kill a spider and wish I didn't need to eat animals.
One winter I live trapped the mice in my house and kept them in a hamster cage until spring.
9/1 sx/sp
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:07:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoL
quote:
Originally posted by baba
We can be truly grateful to live in the USA, where we have the right to bear arms.
9/1 sx/sp
Rather tragic, these words...Think of Columbine..what ever..Gee
How many Locks, do you have Jol ?
Oh, and btw how many arms do You have ?
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
I don't have any weapons...just pepper spray to defend against pit bull attacks when I'm walking my dogs.
I can't even kill a spider and wish I didn't need to eat animals.
One winter I live trapped the mice in my house and kept them in a hamster cage until spring.
9/1 sx/sp
ok, so what's so grateful to bear arms ?
I mean, opening a bank account, and you have a free weapon..lol
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room! |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:10:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
quote:
Originally posted by JoL
quote:
Originally posted by baba
We can be truly grateful to live in the USA, where we have the right to bear arms.
9/1 sx/sp
Rather tragic, these words...Think of Columbine..what ever..Gee
How many Locks, do you have Jol ?
Oh, and btw how many arms do You have ?
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
I don't have any weapons...just pepper spray to defend against pit bull attacks when I'm walking my dogs.
I can't even kill a spider and wish I didn't need to eat animals.
One winter I live trapped the mice in my house and kept them in a hamster cage until spring.
9/1 sx/sp
ok, so what's so grateful to bear arms ?
I mean, opening a bank account, and you have a free weapon..lol
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Yep. I don't really care about bearing arms. I was just looking for attention and trying to be funny.
9/1 sx/sp
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:24:21 AM
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I was just looking for attention and trying to be funny.
Right..Funny I mean the quote:
Having pepper spray for Pitbulls.. lol
 
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room! |
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JoL
Member
USA
2058 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 11:53:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
I was just looking for attention and trying to be funny.
Right..Funny I mean the quote:
Having pepper spray for Pitbulls.. lol
"Banzai-tree"
You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
What? You don't think it would work? Maybe I need to get the bear-size pepper spray?
9/1 sx/sp
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randy mizer
Member
67 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 1:10:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enneathing
quote:
Originally posted by randy mizer
Angelina Jolie = sx 6w7
I've considered that before, but I'm still not sure. If she's a 4, she's definitely 4w3 and imo sp/sx. If she's a 6, she's definitely sx.
That was merely a gut-level impressionistic typing. I really can't explain why I think she's a 6w7 other than this vague sense that she embodies a certain mixture of vulnerability and toughness that I experience commonly unique to Sixes.
Alanis Morissette seems to skirt the 4/6 line, if it exists. I wonder if she really is a 6w5?
Also, none of the aforementioned 4's or quasi-4's mentioned in this thread I would even consider to be "healthy" ... I argue they only seem healthy because they are being compared to those who I would think to be in the mid to low average health range (if one could quantify and qualify such a range). Level 3 (and beyond) health is a rare event that I have yet to really observe in a person for long periods of time. Sustaining such a level for a time, beyond a year say, would qualify you for sainthood in my eyes. I have NEVER witnessed such a person.
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2009 : 1:59:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enneathing
Can anyone give me an example (preferably including a video link) of someone they believe to be a Very Healthy Four? Also include what you think their wing subtype and IV stacking are.
I'll include my own input on this later. First, I want to see what people come up with.
I don't know that much about him, so I'll just throw this out there and those who have more basis for an opinion can say yay or nay...
Rumi?
2w1 - ENFP |
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Topic |
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Example of a Very Healthy Four
