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carlos
Member
3565 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 5:53:18 PM
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hey dfgray, i can definitely see the influence of camille paglia on you. thanks for the links. haven't had much time to think about it, though.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2009 : 12:26:27 PM
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5s in general grate on me because they analyse the dynamics of social interaction, day to day life, personal preferences etc and put them into a larger perspective until they become meaningless. They suck the joy out of everything by mocking life and taking the magic out of it. It's a "Why get excited about <such and such> it's only <such and such> attitude, which begs the question, "What would you have us do instead smartass".
Not talking about anyone here, it's just something I've observed with fives that annoys me and probably others. I personally do this myself sometimes due to my five wing.
Hey lets have a hate thread for every type, I'd have contributionss for each type, my annoyance and hatred are balanced and fair... |
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the_eye
Member
Romania
4183 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2009 : 1:53:10 PM
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I don't like that I can think superstitiously, instead of thinking about one logical explanation I can be inclined to believe in the magical or look for the mythical element. And allegedly I'm a Five.. There's no mysticism in everyday life.
'mich interessiert kein Gleichgewicht/ mir scheint die Sonne ins Gesicht' |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 12:42:39 PM
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Perhaps because of their curiosity they look too hard and so they are the ones who discover there's no mysticism in everyday life...I didn't necessarily think they enjoyed or were happy about the fact they do this  |
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lovexsaidxno
Member
Romania
2773 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 6:07:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
The compulsion for intellectual steel-making becomes the art of sword-making in the 4-winger because insecurity-about-identity is now suffused into the steel-making. For some 5w4s, this means that only the most elegant intellectual forms will receive an invitation to join the sacred space of the self/identity.
If you add sx-first, the electric arc furnace cranks up in a new way - you now have a significant amount of animalistic sexual competition (with its own identity issues) thrown into the mix.
To understand the idealized self-image of sx-first 5w4, imagine a peacock with tail-plumage that looks like an oriental fan of swords.
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wow that really resonates. to fine tune it, i would replace 'elegant' with 'aesthetic'. Being a 5 winger with a 5/4 up next in my tritype, a lot of my identity is based on my intellect, at least creative intelligence, which can be applied to all things. But I get particularly entwined with particular ideas as part of my identity in a way that I think is moreso than most 4s, giving my wing extra weight.
It has been argued by some (only online) that I have a 7 in my fix, rather than a 5, and while I have some vaguely 7ish traits (a lot i chalk up to my instinct and 8/7 fix), I think the above really speaks to my head fix and how having 5 fix relates to my identity seeking as a 4.
________________________________
The 4omantic, 5 wing.
For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.
"It seems that we are gay because we are monstrously sad. We are serious, we know the abyss. This is why we defend ourselves against all that is serious." - Nietzsche. |
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carlos
Member
3565 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 10:25:03 PM
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quote:
To understand the idealized self-image of sx-first 5w4, imagine a peacock with tail-plumage that looks like an oriental fan of swords.
maybe i'm not a sx-first 5w4 but i can tell you, that's not my idealized self-image at all. my 'idealized self image' usually involves some cross between a human, an angel, a demon, and a beast, generally a hairy beast, and swords and such don't usually appear, (except when i'm making fun of other people's apparent sword obsession). not that my idealized self image doesn't involve a giant cock, just that there are no sharp blades around. but light and color do come into play, although not in peacock fashion.
in any case, more consistent in my mind is my non-idealized self image, and it's anything but a peacock... closer to a bombed-out city or a broken-down wreck of a person.
how people perceive me is another story.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 03:03:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
quote:
To understand the idealized self-image of sx-first 5w4, imagine a peacock with tail-plumage that looks like an oriental fan of swords.
maybe i'm not a sx-first 5w4 but i can tell you, that's not my idealized self-image at all. my 'idealized self image' usually involves some cross between a human, an angel, a demon, and a beast, generally a hairy beast, and swords and such don't usually appear, (except when i'm making fun of other people's apparent sword obsession).
I was referring to an image that remains out of consciousness. Perhaps this is an erroneous use, then, of the phrase 'idealized self-image'.
not that my idealized self image doesn't involve a giant cock, just that there are no sharp blades around.
The lack of sharp blades in your conscious idealized self-image is one of my main points - that the aggressive stance remains in shadow and is not fully owned.
but light and color do come into play, although not in peacock fashion.
I was later going to add that in sx/so (in contrast to sx/sp), the blade-plumage would be multi-colored.
in any case, more consistent in my mind is my non-idealized self image, and it's anything but a peacock... closer to a bombed-out city or a broken-down wreck of a person.
how people perceive me is another story.
As for my "obssession with swords", for me the image of a sword is just generic psychic shorthand, used to convey types of aggression. In another conversation, a more blunt tool might come up.
Besides aggression, a sword represents some kind of time spent on mastery of the aggression. In the case of the 5w4, we're talking about sharpened insight.
The shine of the sword also brings in my recent comment to marie about 5w4s and "injury with light". Imagine flashing an inner sword at an enemy with the intent that the person see their own image transformed by the steel-mirror of aggression.
This is psych-ops - an inner affair. The enemy is set off-balance with the image of themselves as an aggressor, sparked by the sword's monochrome reflection....this has them back down out of concerns of being overly-aggressive. 5w4s know that self-questioning is partly an energy-bleed, so there's some investment in being able to make others bleed similarly.
There's much to reflect on in your apparently purely-humorous self-image of 'Ambassador to the Savage Tribes'. 'Ambassador' conveys refinement (intellectual/aesthetic) which puts you at some remove from the poor savages. It also sets you in other nations so that you're not living the daily brutality of the savage. It's very clever actually. You might reflect on the fact that this particular trait - removal from brutality - is so paramount.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
2670 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 04:31:31 AM
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Mr. Gray,
Do you have any ideas on the relatively healthy 5s? What you've tended to say that I have read and can recall seems to be descriptions of 5s who spend their lives in the unhealthy psychological range.
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Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity! |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 08:57:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor
Mr. Gray,
Do you have any ideas on the relatively healthy 5s? What you've tended to say that I have read and can recall seems to be descriptions of 5s who spend their lives in the unhealthy psychological range.
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Verbifying nouns is my favorite adjectivity!
I communicate fairly regularly with a couple of "relatively healthy" 5s. To me, I'm describing average-health characteristics in all the above; the thing that may make the descriptions look unhealthy is that I'm working to condense a given quality into a hermetically-sealed energy-fetish. The only way to do so is by means of what might be viewed as 'unfair images'. But I think I would fairly distribute my unfair images amongst all the types. And in my larger perspective, a person could be engaging in a dark sword tail-plumage dance and, on the same day, helping little old ladies to cross the street.
The subject is 'dislike', afterall.
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carlos
Member
3565 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 5:38:49 PM
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quote:
The lack of sharp blades in your conscious idealized self-image is one of my main points - that the aggressive stance remains in shadow and is not fully owned.
idiot, my agression is fully conscious.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 11:43:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
quote:
The lack of sharp blades in your conscious idealized self-image is one of my main points - that the aggressive stance remains in shadow and is not fully owned.
idiot, my agression is fully conscious.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes
I don't know anyone that's fully conscious of anything. And I'd question the overall consciousness of a person who thinks that such a thing is possible.
Are you conscious of the underlying cause of your reactivity to my posts?
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carlos
Member
3565 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 6:41:29 PM
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quote:
I don't know anyone that's fully conscious of anything
that's because such people probably would stay away from you, except to insult you.
quote:
And I'd question the overall consciousness of a person who thinks that such a thing is possible.
of course you would, because you love to use the 'unconscious' argument for everything, as a blank slate to project your 'creativity' on. if someone takes that away from you, you're left with reality, something you're not interested in. after all, what would you do if you couldn't make stuff up?
quote:
Are you conscious of the underlying cause of your reactivity to my posts?
yeah-- you're annoying and an easy target.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 12:37:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
quote:
I don't know anyone that's fully conscious of anything
that's because such people probably would stay away from you, except to insult you.
You're identifying with the people who'd insult me in my presence....which implies high reactivity.
Fives have a lifelong emotional investment in not being fully conscious of their aggression. You must be special.
quote:
And I'd question the overall consciousness of a person who thinks that such a thing is possible.
of course you would, because you love to use the 'unconscious' argument for everything, as a blank slate to project your 'creativity' on. if someone takes that away from you, you're left with reality, something you're not interested in. after all, what would you do if you couldn't make stuff up?
I can do dull reality...
The human brain has an estimated 100 billion neurons, and the number of connections between those neurons is estimated in the trillions.
Human consciousness is therefore, of necessity, one large filter of all the real-time data generated simultaneously by all those connections.
This doesn't even include the Subconscious, which could partly be defined as made up of the 'filtered out' material and partly (hopefully) of non-brain-located material.
The person who believes in full consciousness, therefore, needs to believe.
quote:
Are you conscious of the underlying cause of your reactivity to my posts?
yeah-- you're annoying and an easy target.
It would be nice if the degree of your reactivity only implied annoyance.
I can handle talking about my reactivity to you...if that would bring you out of your shell a bit.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes
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Edited by - dfgray44 on 05 Nov 2009 12:49:02 AM |
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carlos
Member
3565 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 4:36:10 PM
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dude, i was not socialized as a woman in the 1950's or whatever. Being angry and hating people and having tremendous hostility and bitterness and cynicism is not at all hidden from me. whether i act on it or let it overwhelm me or only realize it after the fact (of a real-time incident) or intentionally reframe it or divert it to other things, that's all a different story.
you're really impossible to talk to because you already have your mind made up about everything and just keep banging away at it using every assumption in the book as if it was holy writ-- except you're the only one writing it and, religiously high or not, your imagination is out of control.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes |
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carlos
Member
3565 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 5:54:16 PM
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you want idealized self-image, here is an idealized self image (minus the breasts):
now please quit it with the damned peacocks.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes |
Edited by - carlos on 05 Nov 2009 5:58:20 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 8:48:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
and here are some real images, to get out of the realm of imagination and into the realm of 'dull reality'.
Ambassador to the Savage Tribes
Look...there's a lot of shadow there.
That's no doubt where the peacock tail and the swords reside.  |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 05:22:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
dude, i was not socialized as a woman in the 1950's or whatever.
Anyone who's not fully conscious of their aggression is like a woman socialized in the 1950s? Do you think these exaggerations might help lead me to understand reality?
I'd say that supression of aggression-awareness has been a large part of Western socialization for decades. For example, a major underlying element of the tattoo/body-piercing cultural phenomenon is that it's an attempt to counteract the absence of initiative rites which would help people embrace the multiplicity of innate "wild things" in themselves...including emotional/spiritual acceptance of the 'aggressive body'. One legacy of the 1960s is that civilized politically-correct humanist people have set their 'wilderness' out of sight, out of mind.
So...you actually were socialized during a phase that encouraged repression of aggression.
Being angry and hating people and having tremendous hostility and bitterness and cynicism is not at all hidden from me.
Not hidden, at all?
whether i act on it or let it overwhelm me or only realize it after the fact (of a real-time incident) or intentionally reframe it or divert it to other things, that's all a different story.
If there's even a slight tendency toward being overwhelmed or realizing after-the-fact or intentionally reframing or diverting...that's called "not being fully conscious". Full consciousness of your aggression would require perfect real-time awareness of it - which would probably have to start with complete emotional acceptance of it.
Even if you made a point of going back later to 'clean house' and acknowledge whatever aggression was diverted, you wouldn't catch it all.
I would've assumed that you knew that everything that involves a human being is a matter of degrees, not absolutes. Are you also fully conscious of your anxiety? Unless you're free of neurosis, anxiety will generally always be acting in various degrees in various ways at various levels of the psyche. Tracking your anxiety or aggression is like trying to capture smoke - it's rising and falling at multiple levels, simultaneously. And then there are the hybrids of anxiety and aggression, and other emotional combo-platters.
you're really impossible to talk to because you already have your mind made up about everything and just keep banging away at it using every assumption in the book as if it was holy writ-- except you're the only one writing it and, religiously high or not, your imagination is out of control.
It seems that you perceive my out-of-control imagination as a threat to something.
cyn·i·cism (sn-szm)
n.
1. Having your mind made up about everything.
2. A 'religious low' which keeps banging away at every assumption in the book in order to ensure its continued mindset.
AmBassetHound to the Mild Tribes
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Art_Skidmore
Member
13305 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 05:36:19 AM
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....ones conscious and sub conscious selves are accessable to anyone who works on their psychic structure which connects with their share of higher centers....i like the two half moons.......interesting to see a photo of you carlos.
ps.. for those wanting to know more about their psychic structure... check out Gurdjieffs and his students teachings on magnetic center....its free. |
Edited by - Art_Skidmore on 06 Nov 2009 05:54:29 AM |
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 07:15:23 AM
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Greetings via "Satellite", Carlos, nice to see a picture again from you.
I was thinking about y'r latest, some years ago....Venice (yes, I remember that) and peacock tattoos ? 
I still think, while y're not a big fan of U2 , this "Zoo-tv show",
was one of their best...
From an old man and a Reed lover..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OUE0vMblBE&feature=related
Ps.. Looking at the picture, I say Guru-Teacher-Didactic...
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself. |
Edited by - baba on 06 Nov 2009 07:30:39 AM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 08:36:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Art_Skidmore
....ones conscious and sub conscious selves are accessable to anyone...
My comments don't contradict that idea.
Here's a little known fact to ponder when you're feeling more Skiddish:
If we were fully conscious, every strange dream we have in our sleep would be perceived as prose...instead of as alien poetry.
Know ye this, my fine feathered friends.
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Art_Skidmore
Member
13305 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 09:02:49 AM
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| ....SHAME exists in ones non present negative past self. |
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2009 : 09:53:30 AM
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Dfgray,
Y'r creative fantasy is sometimes rather alien to me..
Suggestion: Keep studying...and keep y'r mouth shut for awhile, it can
be refreshing..lol
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 10:46:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
Dfgray,
Y'r creative fantasy is sometimes rather alien to me..
Suggestion: Keep studying...and keep y'r mouth shut for awhile, it can
be refreshing..lol
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself.
It's interesting. This thread and the Einstein thread that I started awhile back have shined a light on some blindspots for 5s (due to the mass participation of 5s in both threads). My typical propensity would be to idealize the 5w4/4w5 space, in particular, as regards the subject of self-awareness. But I now consider myself newly-educated.
What would be the most interesting thing of all would be for a brave 5 to come forward, now that the subject is raised, and describe the reasons why 5s would actually be avoidant of certain areas of the psyche, based on Type 5's known propensities. Does the prospect of a vast limitless Unconscious make a 5 feel incapable, in some way?
By the way, as a side note, I did a search on carlos and peacock and scored some hilarious bullseyes. I'm still considering whether to shame him about it or not....
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 11:36:54 AM
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By the way, as a side note, I did a search on carlos and peacock and scored some hilarious bullseyes. I'm still considering whether to shame him about it or not....
oh, what a FUN...hilarious.. This statement shows y'r lack of understanding of a 5w4...
You can't shame with y'r scores, as simple as it is..
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself. |
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skunk
Member
2131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2009 : 12:04:48 PM
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quote:
what do people dislike about 5w4's?
The outward expression of avarice, heightened by the inwardness of the Four wing: 'when push comes to shove, I could survive without you; without anyone' ?
I think most people feel reassured by the vulnerabilty of another's need; it is a means by which they, in turn, can come to share, trust and be vulnerable with another person. I now feel that this is perhaps why I have generally been shunned throughout my life.
Or maybe not. Either way, just a thought. |
Edited by - skunk on 08 Nov 2009 12:29:05 PM |
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what do people dislike about 5w4's?
