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enforest
Member
258 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 12:26:47 PM
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The "what don't you like about 5w4's" thread really hit a few nerves for me, going over the last few days' posts that I had missed.
I'm actually not prone to doing this (as I try my hardest to hold it all in), but I am seriously lost about real life at the moment.
I'm guessing it's the sx-first instinct going ballistic.
A case of something unrequited, and then me realizing I probably didn't even want it in the first place. Like I convinced myself it would be fulfilling.
Then being unable to place the correct amount of worth on the loss because I can't distinguish between a need to shoot down the unworthy out of fear (I didn't really need you, I overlooked so many flaws to add you to my list) and an actual desire to connect and see the good in people.
Who am I? What do I want?
I keep thinking I don't want anything at all.
But then can that really be true, given what I feel?
I felt jealousy, I felt fear. Aren't those signs of something?
This is so important to me right now, to gain more clarity and understanding of what is going on inside me. It's like this is a recurring thing. A longing of some sorts.
Each time I approach the flame, I get burned. I do a dance around people, hoping no one will see how much I hesitate. They all think I'm charming, approachable, a wonderful and observant friend. They're right about that, but I keep wondering why I always return to this state.
I think it has to do with feeling so unworthy. A mixture of fear and shame and really I don't know what.
I can't approach anyone I desire in the right way, yet I am so generous and giving to others when I "know" the limitations, when I don't think they are "the one".
Am I really generous, though? I know the passion is avarice, and I see that in myself quite well. I don't deny it. But can I ever be genuinely generous?
Have I ever really been sincere with myself and others?
And what do others matter to me if I can't "see" myself? I don't want to "play the expert" to others if I can't be transparent to myself.
When I don't understand myself, I feel weak and useless. I'm wondering how this relates to other 5s. My idea lately has been that being triple withdrawn makes me so introspective to the point of self-implosion. I resist this implosion and fight back through violent explosions towards people who threaten. I try to strike others down.
My dilemma really is "If I don't understand myself, then I'm worthless, vulnerable to rejection". No one wants someone who doesn't know themselves. I certainly don't.
What a stupid dilemma. It feels like such a messed up mix of 5 and 4. I look at other 5s, and often it seems they are so much more sober, so much more bent on a pursuit outside of their own emotional landscapes. Why does everything have to feel so inner-generated to me?
---
Having to spend a day, at the very least, walking in this fog. Preoccupied by like a dozen thoughts that I kill off but then constantly just regenerate themselves. The same ones coming over and over. Somewhat haunting me.
I thought I knew what my "gift" was. I feel so tempted by people, so attracted to so many people, to be a part of their lives. Yet this sort of storm comes in and ruins my chances of ever giving myself fully to others. There is too much fear. Too much shame.
I feel so much like I have nothing to give.
---
Anyway, sorry to everyone about this. I always try to erase this sort of stuff before I post it. It's not that I deny my own internal chaos, but just that I never find an outlet for it. It doesn't seem "allowed" for me to share this side of me, unfiltered.
If anyone would have any insights or guidance, I'd really appreciate it.
Still any doubts about my type? (lol)
Also, posting this here as stopped me from taking the "wrong" actions in rea life. There was such a desire to destroy everything. I think now I've softened up.
Enforest
p.s. I'll answer to m7p and Diane as soon as I can. I haven't forgotten you guys.
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~lee~
Member
USA
7144 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 12:41:00 PM
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Enforest
Some brief thoughts that occur to me.
1. Understanding one's self is useful in many contexts, yet, to have this as a goal may be illusory because the self is so BIG and so permeable. There's always mystery within, and that is a good thing. So...not understanding one's self seems like an honest response to a real state of affairs. No shame, in my opinion.
2. This said, I think that sitting with one's desires, aspirations, thoughts, nightmares, longings, remoursefulnesses, and the like make a whole lot of sense. That is....what comes up? Why now? Where does it lead? These are good questions.
3. Someone who claims to understand him or herself is probably pretty boring. They might seem to have it together at first, and hence be attractive, especially to someone who is confused or searching, but after a while, it becomes clearer that such self-understanding is bought at the price of resistance to novelty or challenge. As a Sx first, this would not be your path.
4. Re: relationships--if you ever solve your dilemma, please let me know :) |
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 12:56:50 PM
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Hey, Enforest. 
I don't have any sage advice but will just give a couple of small remarks.
quote:
Originally posted by enforest
Have I ever really been sincere with myself and others?
You seem mighty sincere on this board, or you are REALLY good at faking it.
quote:
No one wants someone who doesn't know themselves.
I think for most people, that's not even on their radar (unfortunately imo). But for those who themselves are self-aware enough to think about such a thing, they probably realize from their own experience that self-knowledge is a continuum. The fact of being aware that there is more to you than you perceive, is part of self-knowledge, isn't it? You don't know yourself fully.
Also, the "No one wants..." paired with your next sentence "I certainly don't" logically implies you don't want yourself. I have plenty of these experiences too (not wanting myself) but just pointing out the implication. What would it take to give yourself permission to know "only" partially? Can you give yourself credit for the fact that you continue to explore and that you continue to seek greater self-knowledge? Would that permission/credit help you want yourself?
quote:
It doesn't seem "allowed" for me to share this side of me, unfiltered.
Thanks for sharing it here. Your posts have imo a high degree of both self-awareness/analysis and honest feeling. I often find myself saying "wow" when reading your posts.
quote:
Also, posting this here as stopped me from taking the "wrong" actions in rea life.
HOORAY! 
---
Just wondering, do you find it helpful, harmful, or neutral to your state of mind/heart to focus on the body center during stuff like this (you know, breathing, yoga, etc)? I don't mean tuning out the thoughts and feelings, but just bringing the body center more fully into awareness along with the thoughts and feelings?
2w1 - ENFP |
Edited by - manda7panda on 27 Oct 2009 1:00:01 PM |
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radical_ed
Member
1314 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 2:32:03 PM
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Hi, enforest. I'm pretty good at analyzing myself. I am lousy at analyzing other people. So, take what I say with huge heaps of salt and a sense of humor.
That being said, I am recommending to you my simple, patent-pending, Three-Step Plan to Figure Out Yourself(TM), 99% GUARANTEED TO WORK!!! It is SO EASY that you can do it right now, in front of your computer.
Here it is:
1) While you are sitting down, presumably at a desk or table where the computer you are facing is located, grip your hands on the edge of the surface.
2) Push.
3) Stand up, walk away, and do something that has nothing to do with you thinking about yourself.
All jokes aside, I think you are falling into the common trap of analyzing without having enough life experience/confidence/information to make any firm conclusions. I don't think that this is an especially revolutionary, earth-shaking insight. But perhaps it will help you laugh at yourself a bit when you are overwhelmed by your thoughts. Quit thinking. Start doing. Anything. Just get out of your head and live in The Real World(R). It only seems scary at first. Try it.
__
Radical Edward
sp/so 3w2 INTJ |
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hweol
Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 4:32:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enforest
I'm guessing it's the sx-first instinct going ballistic.
Yes, I know how that feels. If you place too many of your sx-first expectations in one basket, you will go ballistic unless your relationship with that person is extraordinarily reciprocal.
quote:
A case of something unrequited, and then me realizing I probably didn't even want it in the first place. Like I convinced myself it would be fulfilling.
I've deceived myself too that way, and payed dearly for it. When we try to alter an understanding of ourselves and the things which make us calm and happy, just to include something or someone seemingly interesting or attractive into our lives, it is like taking a hammer to our own self-knowing, and we could emerge from the chaos totally disoriented and full of suffering.
quote:
Then being unable to place the correct amount of worth on the loss because I can't distinguish between a need to shoot down the unworthy out of fear (I didn't really need you, I overlooked so many flaws to add you to my list) and an actual desire to connect and see the good in people.
This in my eyes is an all important crossroads for you. When we feel a deep sense of loss, we can be infused with vast stores of energy. We are not calm/at rest. What you do with this influx of energy stemming from your loss will define where you will go in life during this times, what kind of experiences/feelings/discoveries you will attract to you.
If you opt for shooting down the "unworthy" (which is actually an idealized judgement of others imo and not actually substantial when we consider their potentialities in diverse relationships and situations), you will colour this energy likewise. The same follows for searching for the good in others. If you want to find some happiness in your loss, which naturally results from cessation of feelings of envy/anger/jealousy, I would pick the second path. Perhaps you will even find good in those you feel have caused the most frustration for you, and this will help you find rest with yourself and in your relations with them.
quote:
Who am I? What do I want?
I keep thinking I don't want anything at all.
But then can that really be true, given what I feel?
Like others have said, I think our sense of identity follows a continuum that is relative to our experiences in life, which in my opinion are hardly ever solely the result of our own will (though we can always look at our predicaments and choose between courses of action, which is our power in shaping the future). But somewhere in this mystery, we need to find a place to find ourselves in, a place where we can re-energize, and feel happy, transforming our energies into beautiful works of art, constructive plans, tasty food, pleasant discoveries... ultimately things that help us appreciate the good in life, especially since we seem to have a knack for finding the negative, which if unbalanced (by not seeing enough of the good), can lead to self-destructive habits. I like to keep in mind that even those unshakably happy people who have no attachment to life would consider self-destructive habits as an undesirable, self-created state of sufferring.
quote:
I felt jealousy, I felt fear. Aren't those signs of something?
This is so important to me right now, to gain more clarity and understanding of what is going on inside me. It's like this is a recurring thing. A longing of some sorts. quote:
I've felt those things too, and I regard them as signs of feeling inadequate to the world. It has indeed reoccurred for me, in different flavours of feeling inadequate of course. At some point, I noticed what was going on and found help and fostered relationships which helped me appreciate my talents, knowledge and past experiences. This led me to transform even sad experiences in my past into something useful that could help me understand others going through the same predicaments I've been through (which is what I'm doing right now).
quote:
Each time I approach the flame, I get burned. I do a dance around people, hoping no one will see how much I hesitate. They all think I'm charming, approachable, a wonderful and observant friend. They're right about that, but I keep wondering why I always return to this state.
I think it has to do with feeling so unworthy. A mixture of fear and shame and really I don't know what.
You said it, though many people do like you and find you interesting and smart, it does all feel like a dance, even a charade if we don't feel adequate in ourselves. Try to rebuild some kind of identity repleate with habits that you feel are positive, healing and help you use your abundant energy (which has been going ballistic in your sx-first 5 head :P ) into productive projects or journeys which you can enjoy for yourself and share with others who may find interest. Easier said than done, it could take a while before you can look back and say, "I do feel a lot better now, and look at all the good things I've done since those dark times", but start soon :)
quote:
I can't approach anyone I desire in the right way, yet I am so generous and giving to others when I "know" the limitations, when I don't think they are "the one".
I believe that the idealized "one" for me just causes an imbalance of energy when dealing with this person, who in a more objective sense is not really that much different from anyone else fundamentally. By placing all this idealization on one person, we also place a large number of expectations of them, desires and needs that if they cannot give to us, we will suffer. And because romantic attraction works at the 1 to 1 level, this suffering is to be felt squarely by us and only us, which can make us feel very isolated and lonely in our feelings. And of course... after feeling so afflicted by our suffering, sometimes we like to "rebel" against the misconstrued origin of this suffering, the idealized person themselves. This tends to be an irrational interpretation, and is especially the case if the idealized person had no intention of hurting you or receiving all this "trust" or, what would make more sense in their eyes as "obligations", to support your expectations and desires.
I didn't always think this way about it though. In fact, only (relatively) recently have I learned to appreciate fostering relationships with all kinds of people, being generous to many of them. Of course, I'm attracted to some of them, but I realize that turning them into "the one", without them being ready to do the same for me, is just bad for our relationship. Relationships function best when everything is mutual. Maybe because I'm a 9, I try to satisfy myself without pushing beyond the limits of what they would want with me, and concentrate on the productive arena of shared interests.
quote:
Am I really generous, though? I know the passion is avarice, and I see that in myself quite well. I don't deny it. But can I ever be genuinely generous?
Have I ever really been sincere with myself and others?
And what do others matter to me if I can't "see" myself? I don't want to "play the expert" to others if I can't be transparent to myself.
I guess generosity, or better, the act of giving to others before giving to ourselves, is one of those things that's motivation could be ambiguous.
Some people give in a truly self-sacrificing way. They actually regard the well being of others before their own.
Others give out of habit, because those are the social norms they feel most comfortable with. They may even give under circumstances that you would interpret as self-sacrificing, but I think the motivation could still be from habit, or a sense of discipline in adhering to this social principle.
And still others, the malicious ones of the bunch, use acts of kindness and generosity to feed their image, deceiving those who don't know better that they are actually saints, which should be elected to positions of power for social good, when in reality it is all for self gain.
I see myself most with the second category, the type that gives out of habit or discipline, rather than out of actual self-sacrifice. Even if I am emotional about giving to others first, I still identify it with my sense of principles.
quote:
When I don't understand myself, I feel weak and useless. I'm wondering how this relates to other 5s. My idea lately has been that being triple withdrawn makes me so introspective to the point of self-implosion. I resist this implosion and fight back through violent explosions towards people who threaten. I try to strike others down.
My dilemma really is "If I don't understand myself, then I'm worthless, vulnerable to rejection". No one wants someone who doesn't know themselves. I certainly don't.
What a stupid dilemma. It feels like such a messed up mix of 5 and 4. I look at other 5s, and often it seems they are so much more sober, so much more bent on a pursuit outside of their own emotional landscapes. Why does everything have to feel so inner-generated to me?
Sounds like the classic, "your worst enemy is yourself". I suggest you take a look at the list of levels of happiness (nearness to the essence) listed for the five, I think it's somewhere in the main site. You'll see how your type functions at happier levels. This can help you find some faith, and great potential in yourself, instead of meditating on our predicaments and interpreting them as permenant, or monumental limitations.
---
quote:
Having to spend a day, at the very least, walking in this fog. Preoccupied by like a dozen thoughts that I kill off but then constantly just regenerate themselves. The same ones coming over and over. Somewhat haunting me.
Like diseases, such as cancer, you need the right medicine, the right tools to beat them. I'm happy that you're sharing this with others because it's a sign that you're open to receive such things.
[quote]I thought I knew what my "gift" was. I feel so tempted by people, so attracted to so many people, to be a part of their lives. Yet this sort of storm comes in and ruins my chances of ever giving myself fully to others. There is too much fear. Too much shame.
I feel so much like I have nothing to give.
Many of the greatest artists died in poverty and obscurity. Bach wasn't appreciated during his time, except by those of his students which were brilliant enough to appreciate the highest levels of his expression and genius. And yet today, the world recognizes Bach in this way.
Bach knew his gift, and he knew how to impart it to others in the most suitable way he could find. That was the basis for why he wrote all his books of inventions, and his 2 books of prelude & fugues.
He knew that he could not appeal to everyone, especially to the nobility that spat at the social status of musicians, even if they composed out of godly inspiration and genius that could send scores of people either listening or playing his compositions to the highest heavens, for free.
We are not Bach, but we each have our own potentials for greatness, and a means available to us for imparting it to others. We live in a free country, and this is an extraordinary relief for a man to do such a thing. No longer are we barred from education, finding a career of our choice, etc... All that remains for us is to discover ourselves, and in our limited time on the earth, find out what is most meaningful in our hearts. It is probably not what we have romanticized in our culture, as "true love" for another. In fact, there is more genius and passion in the art and cinematics that are used to convey such stories than the actual dime-a-dozen plot. It's what made Disney, for example, great.
Find your way to be great, don't let negative experiences bar you forever from using your intelligence and creativity. Instead of perpetually being stuck in a state where you are fighting off negative thoughts in your head, try to connect to your gut and knock down the actual obstacles in the outside world. Instead of always struggling with an inner war alone in your room, every now and then, open the door and go outside, and campaign over there!
---
[quote]Anyway, sorry to everyone about this. I always try to erase this sort of stuff before I post it. It's not that I deny my own internal chaos, but just that I never find an outlet for it. It doesn't seem "allowed" for me to share this side of me, unfiltered.
Also, posting this here as stopped me from taking the "wrong" actions in rea life. There was such a desire to destroy everything. I think now I've softened up.
That's good to hear. Though destruction is necessary for creation to begin, we can't destroy everything, and in the process, ourselves. We won't be able to rebuild much if we do that. Discriminate to productive destruction from the counter-productive destruction! :)
we'll see |
Edited by - hweol on 28 Oct 2009 12:10:30 AM |
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goodmourning
Member
228 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 5:34:59 PM
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I've spent almost 3 journal in a year and a half trying to figure myself out. I know the obsession. Your thinking center tries to figure out what it cannot directly figure out. Without contact with emotional affect, you'll never figure everything out, and without the mindfulness to be able to stay with the affect, no real change will occur.
I also relate much to the 5 and 4 mix. Our "emotional storms" manifest more like internal thinking storms.
Feeling comes first, then insight comes on its own. Insigth is easy for us. |
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goodmourning
Member
228 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 6:37:31 PM
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| I've had some of the most lasting changes from states like this. But it's always more of a kinesthetic insight, deeper than the cognitions we get so caught in. |
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awakening
Member
USA
1761 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 7:02:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enforest
The "what don't you like about 5w4's" thread really hit a few nerves for me, going over the last few days' posts that I had missed.
I'm actually not prone to doing this (as I try my hardest to hold it all in), but I am seriously lost about real life at the moment.
I'm guessing it's the sx-first instinct going ballistic.
A case of something unrequited, and then me realizing I probably didn't even want it in the first place. Like I convinced myself it would be fulfilling.
Then being unable to place the correct amount of worth on the loss because I can't distinguish between a need to shoot down the unworthy out of fear (I didn't really need you, I overlooked so many flaws to add you to my list) and an actual desire to connect and see the good in people.
Who am I? What do I want?
I keep thinking I don't want anything at all.
But then can that really be true, given what I feel?
I felt jealousy, I felt fear. Aren't those signs of something?
This is so important to me right now, to gain more clarity and understanding of what is going on inside me. It's like this is a recurring thing. A longing of some sorts.
Each time I approach the flame, I get burned. I do a dance around people, hoping no one will see how much I hesitate. They all think I'm charming, approachable, a wonderful and observant friend. They're right about that, but I keep wondering why I always return to this state.
I think it has to do with feeling so unworthy. A mixture of fear and shame and really I don't know what.
I can't approach anyone I desire in the right way, yet I am so generous and giving to others when I "know" the limitations, when I don't think they are "the one".
Am I really generous, though? I know the passion is avarice, and I see that in myself quite well. I don't deny it. But can I ever be genuinely generous?
Have I ever really been sincere with myself and others?
And what do others matter to me if I can't "see" myself? I don't want to "play the expert" to others if I can't be transparent to myself.
When I don't understand myself, I feel weak and useless. I'm wondering how this relates to other 5s. My idea lately has been that being triple withdrawn makes me so introspective to the point of self-implosion. I resist this implosion and fight back through violent explosions towards people who threaten. I try to strike others down.
My dilemma really is "If I don't understand myself, then I'm worthless, vulnerable to rejection". No one wants someone who doesn't know themselves. I certainly don't.
What a stupid dilemma. It feels like such a messed up mix of 5 and 4. I look at other 5s, and often it seems they are so much more sober, so much more bent on a pursuit outside of their own emotional landscapes. Why does everything have to feel so inner-generated to me?
---
Having to spend a day, at the very least, walking in this fog. Preoccupied by like a dozen thoughts that I kill off but then constantly just regenerate themselves. The same ones coming over and over. Somewhat haunting me.
I thought I knew what my "gift" was. I feel so tempted by people, so attracted to so many people, to be a part of their lives. Yet this sort of storm comes in and ruins my chances of ever giving myself fully to others. There is too much fear. Too much shame.
I feel so much like I have nothing to give.
---
Anyway, sorry to everyone about this. I always try to erase this sort of stuff before I post it. It's not that I deny my own internal chaos, but just that I never find an outlet for it. It doesn't seem "allowed" for me to share this side of me, unfiltered.
If anyone would have any insights or guidance, I'd really appreciate it.
Still any doubts about my type? (lol)
Also, posting this here as stopped me from taking the "wrong" actions in rea life. There was such a desire to destroy everything. I think now I've softened up.
Enforest
p.s. I'll answer to m7p and Diane as soon as I can. I haven't forgotten you guys.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that what you are experiencing is "the sx-first instinct going ballistic" as you put it. Remember that maybe the most constant feature of Type Five descending to lower health is uncertainty. And it's a mistake to think that this uncertainty is necessarily of a logical nature that deals specifically with Fives' oft-mentioned "areas of study and expertise"; I would describe it as an open-ended and deeply unsettling lack of concrete judgment about the world, the self, and everything in between. The dizzying identity crises generally connected with the feeling triad (3 and 4 mainly) are not reserved for those types, and Fives can have profoundly disturbed images of themselves, and the Five under stress is unable to rely upon the usually sufficient thinking faculty to navigate the world, and is forced to use the other two less developed centers, which are usually very uncomfortable territories. One of the greatest frustrations for me has been the sense that others do not fully appreciate my feelings. Fives are not robots; they are passionate people who care deeply and would put a great deal on the line for their values. Their detachment is a neurosis/pathology and not a conscious choice; the aloof and independent attitude they take is a coping mechanism for the fundamental separateness from others that they struggle with for their entire lives. There is a cold and sad drama to the Five that is not at all specific to wing or instinctual variant stacking. I'm curious about whether you are INFJ; supposedly, INFJ Fives do exist; your posts tend to be very feeling-oriented, and how you approach problems isn't quite as analytical as I've come to expect from other Fives.
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enforest
Member
258 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 7:32:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
I've spent almost 3 journal in a year and a half trying to figure myself out. I know the obsession. Your thinking center tries to figure out what it cannot directly figure out. Without contact with emotional affect, you'll never figure everything out, and without the mindfulness to be able to stay with the affect, no real change will occur.
I also relate much to the 5 and 4 mix. Our "emotional storms" manifest more like internal thinking storms.
Feeling comes first, then insight comes on its own. Insigth is easy for us.
I'm sorry for ever being rough with you in prior posts.
My intentions are always to pick you up by the hand when I feel you've fallen down.
You tend to write many posts that cry out with the voice of a soul-searcher.
And I relate well to what you usually post. Out of all the 5s here, and despite not knowing you very well (we've never really discussed much), your dilemma resonates with mine, I find.
Anyway, I'm simply saying this as "another".
---
The feeling I get in some moments is that we are on the wrong search.
We can get so wrapped up and obsessed with certain thoughts, while we fail so much to create something new.
I never realized until this summer or so what great creative capacities I have. I have such insights into other people, into their "beauty". I feel like a guide, leading people through the forest.
"In the forest, you'll reconnect with nature, you'll feel the rawest of your experiences. You'll get messy and perpetually touched by the senses and return to your true self. And I'll be your guide. I'll show you how to love every bit of who you are"
I don't know why I'm saying this, but it feels to be my soul's longing at the moment. It's what I want so much and am so attuned to discovering.
---
I really want to thank everyone who responded above me.
It means a lot to me, because I am so often caught in my own cynicism of being "banished" (as Skunk said the other day), having no right to participate. You are helping me see more clearly.
I think this is an aspect of myself that I'll definitely learn to work with. Realizing that I have the right to depend on others, to ask for help.
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As for m7p,
What would it take to give yourself permission to know "only" partially? Can you give yourself credit for the fact that you continue to explore and that you continue to seek greater self-knowledge? Would that permission/credit help you want yourself?
Maybe I should face the fact that knowing only partially is still knowing something. I hate the all or nothing mindset.
Maybe this is enough to be happy. Do I really need to self-protect to such extents?
Just wondering, do you find it helpful, harmful, or neutral to your state of mind/heart to focus on the body center during stuff like this (you know, breathing, yoga, etc)? I don't mean tuning out the thoughts and feelings, but just bringing the body center more fully into awareness along with the thoughts and feelings?
Yes, most definitely.
The thing is of actually convincing yourself to stop bashing your head against the wall with your thinking.
I mean, still think, but move your attention towards your body. Realize that your thoughts are not all that you are.
It's difficult, as I'm sure it is for every type.
I'll follow up on your suggestion.
I wish there were woods in this city. I would always be there.
Instead I think I'll wander around an unknown part of town to shake myself out of it. That often helps (and I feel it's connected to the body center)
Thanks |
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enforest
Member
258 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 8:17:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
Enforest
Some brief thoughts that occur to me.
1. Understanding one's self is useful in many contexts, yet, to have this as a goal may be illusory because the self is so BIG and so permeable. There's always mystery within, and that is a good thing. So...not understanding one's self seems like an honest response to a real state of affairs. No shame, in my opinion.
Yes. This isn't understood by me at all. It'll take time to do so.
2. This said, I think that sitting with one's desires, aspirations, thoughts, nightmares, longings, remoursefulnesses, and the like make a whole lot of sense. That is....what comes up? Why now? Where does it lead? These are good questions.
3. Someone who claims to understand him or herself is probably pretty boring. They might seem to have it together at first, and hence be attractive, especially to someone who is confused or searching, but after a while, it becomes clearer that such self-understanding is bought at the price of resistance to novelty or challenge. As a Sx first, this would not be your path.
Thanks Lee. You've been giving good advice.
I had this vision for a painting in my head. I want a person crouching down, clutching their arms around their chest tightly, with a fearful expression as their interiors threaten to explode with the strangest contraptions (multi-colored springs, incongruous shapes, etc). You'd see a few starting to creep out here and there, as the figure tries their best to hold it all in. The tension in the body should be highly accentuated.
I'm going to keep in mind what you just said. It feels like something I wanted to hear for a long time.
4. Re: relationships--if you ever solve your dilemma, please let me know :)
:)
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enforest
Member
258 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 12:04:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by awakening
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that what you are experiencing is "the sx-first instinct going ballistic" as you put it.
Sorry about that. I thought about having said this, and I really should have said it was the mix between my sx variant and the 5 fixation. It really has to be a combination of both.
I agree with you on what you say. But I think the trigger is deprivation from intimate connection and the the general dilemma seems to revolve around "depth" (of myself and others). Knowing myself as a way of feeling confident enough to get closer to others.
Remember that maybe the most constant feature of Type Five descending to lower health is uncertainty. And it's a mistake to think that this uncertainty is necessarily of a logical nature that deals specifically with Fives' oft-mentioned "areas of study and expertise"; I would describe it as an open-ended and deeply unsettling lack of concrete judgment about the world, the self, and everything in between. The dizzying identity crises generally connected with the feeling triad (3 and 4 mainly) are not reserved for those types, and Fives can have profoundly disturbed images of themselves, and the Five under stress is unable to rely upon the usually sufficient thinking faculty to navigate the world, and is forced to use the other two less developed centers, which are usually very uncomfortable territories. One of the greatest frustrations for me has been the sense that others do not fully appreciate my feelings.
This, to me, is a sign of sx-first.
In myself, I often crave reciprocation, but fear my feelings will get squashed like a butterfly. My sp/sx 5 friends often crave this too, but rarely get neurotic over it. It's like they can do without a connection.
Anyway, the topic is about me (I think). But I never replied to the other thread. So I thought I'd give feedback here. (I don't know you, so keep that in mind)
Also, the way you share information, it really seems like you want to be "met".
What was your conclusion, in the end?
Fives are not robots; they are passionate people who care deeply and would put a great deal on the line for their values. Their detachment is a neurosis/pathology and not a conscious choice; the aloof and independent attitude they take is a coping mechanism for the fundamental separateness from others that they struggle with for their entire lives. There is a cold and sad drama to the Five that is not at all specific to wing or instinctual variant stacking. I'm curious about whether you are INFJ; supposedly, INFJ Fives do exist; your posts tend to be very feeling-oriented, and how you approach problems isn't quite as analytical as I've come to expect from other Fives.
Now I'm curious as to why you see me as a J, lol.
I'm INxP. Most people will think I'm INFP, but I relate a lot to INTP as well. I only considered INFP after a many number of years.
As for my post not being analytical, I think the very nature of my dilemma is caused by being overly analytical. Losing oneself in a labyrinth of thoughts and possibilities.
But I'm wondering what you meant by that. It's not clear to me.
Do you mean that I seem less detached from my emotions?
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goodmourning
Member
228 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 12:18:20 PM
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I've found that in my experience, I am just as emotional as anyone else, it's just that I have never been able to stay with emotions. The experience of them escapes my consciousness extremely quick. And it's as if I didn't experience anything at all.
But I always come out of a fog like that with some growth. |
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.ron4
Member
9126 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 2:21:01 PM
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enforest, also sounded like under stress and is moving to 7 alot.
ron
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awakening
Member
USA
1761 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 8:07:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by enforest
quote:
Originally posted by awakening
I wouldn't be so quick to assume that what you are experiencing is "the sx-first instinct going ballistic" as you put it.
Sorry about that. I thought about having said this, and I really should have said it was the mix between my sx variant and the 5 fixation. It really has to be a combination of both.
I agree with you on what you say. But I think the trigger is deprivation from intimate connection and the the general dilemma seems to revolve around "depth" (of myself and others). Knowing myself as a way of feeling confident enough to get closer to others.
Remember that maybe the most constant feature of Type Five descending to lower health is uncertainty. And it's a mistake to think that this uncertainty is necessarily of a logical nature that deals specifically with Fives' oft-mentioned "areas of study and expertise"; I would describe it as an open-ended and deeply unsettling lack of concrete judgment about the world, the self, and everything in between. The dizzying identity crises generally connected with the feeling triad (3 and 4 mainly) are not reserved for those types, and Fives can have profoundly disturbed images of themselves, and the Five under stress is unable to rely upon the usually sufficient thinking faculty to navigate the world, and is forced to use the other two less developed centers, which are usually very uncomfortable territories. One of the greatest frustrations for me has been the sense that others do not fully appreciate my feelings.
This, to me, is a sign of sx-first.
In myself, I often crave reciprocation, but fear my feelings will get squashed like a butterfly. My sp/sx 5 friends often crave this too, but rarely get neurotic over it. It's like they can do without a connection.
Anyway, the topic is about me (I think). But I never replied to the other thread. So I thought I'd give feedback here. (I don't know you, so keep that in mind)
Also, the way you share information, it really seems like you want to be "met".
What was your conclusion, in the end?
Fives are not robots; they are passionate people who care deeply and would put a great deal on the line for their values. Their detachment is a neurosis/pathology and not a conscious choice; the aloof and independent attitude they take is a coping mechanism for the fundamental separateness from others that they struggle with for their entire lives. There is a cold and sad drama to the Five that is not at all specific to wing or instinctual variant stacking. I'm curious about whether you are INFJ; supposedly, INFJ Fives do exist; your posts tend to be very feeling-oriented, and how you approach problems isn't quite as analytical as I've come to expect from other Fives.
Now I'm curious as to why you see me as a J, lol.
I'm INxP. Most people will think I'm INFP, but I relate a lot to INTP as well. I only considered INFP after a many number of years.
As for my post not being analytical, I think the very nature of my dilemma is caused by being overly analytical. Losing oneself in a labyrinth of thoughts and possibilities.
But I'm wondering what you meant by that. It's not clear to me.
Do you mean that I seem less detached from my emotions?
In some ways, I might be spotting a core w4/w6 difference of reductionism versus a more "angsty" analysis. And it's not surprising to me you type as INxP. I'm not sure why I assumed J for you; you do seem more P now that I think of it. Re: my own stacking, that still vacillates a bit. I've been thinking sp/sx for quite some time, but this works only with a very broadened view of sp/sx that allows for intense one-to-one connection, preoccupations with intimacy, and so forth. I can't think of any way to truly know for sure. People have given me feedback in different directions, but it always seems either contrary to what I've noticed in myself, or similar, both of which are simply more data to take into consideration. I've found it's very difficult to separate fixation from stacking. I've sometimes wondered if my generally very "anti-social" orientation is merely the result of a distorted social variant, but this seems relatively unlikely to me. I certainly fit the sp first stereotype of intense needs for privacy, time alone, the safety and tranquility of home, and so forth. Yes, I am interested in "being met" or known, but I see that as something all Fives share on some level (and all human beings, really). My personality has a sort of malleability about it that allows me to experiment with different energies (as I find is true in all of us) but I can't always identify which is which. I think I certainly feel most comfortable with sp; whether that corresponds to sp-first or not is debatable, since the first variant is actually supposed to be the area of greatest overall discomfort. I'm still trying to develop a perfectly sound theory for myself.
What I've noticed with you is a tendency to abstract your emotions, experiences, and troubles so that they are relatively disconnected from the tangible, concrete objects, people, things, and so forth, which seem to be their causes. I think it could be helpful to call things what they are, name the people who matter to you, address your problems in a more mundane way that doesn't let your imagination tinge your feelings quite so much. As soon as I have trouble communicating what is going on in my personal life to others, I know I am in trouble. Usually the solution is actually not so difficult to discern once you have framed the problem honestly and simply.
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enforest
Member
258 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 8:54:08 PM
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Skunk,
I'm sad you deleted.
I wanted to reread what was written just now.
Anyway, your message stuck with me quite well.
Thanks for what i can remember you contributing.
(if you want me to delete this post as well, I'll do so. we can pretend like we never existed for these brief moments)
what was the name of the author you mentioned? i think i want to read her. |
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~lee~
Member
USA
7144 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 9:05:12 PM
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It was Joan Didion.
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 9:10:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
It was Joan Didion.
I'm very fond of her.
I have her as a sp/sx Five with Four.
I see her as a courageous person. |
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enforest
Member
258 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2009 : 9:40:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ~lee~
It was Joan Didion.
Thanks!
:) |
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Chaotic 5ness
