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goodmourning
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228 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 3:45:42 PM
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I'll cut to the chase. I'm thinking that what really makes Essential Development difficult, is not the work itself, it's the difficulty of of being awake in a neurotic, dangerous, unpredictable world. This is why traditional mystics tended to be biased against the ability of mankind to awaken in lay life.
I've come to realize that I have had many experiences of atleast some contact with Essential states and defenses dropping away, to reveal sections of my nature.
When these incidents occur, they tended to be in situations where I totally trusted the people around me and felt in a supportive environment. In therapy, in Zen groups, in more liberal churches in my past.
But the other 90% of my life, I'm not in such an open, supportive environment. And I see a plethora of defenses and barriers arise.
I'm a 5, I can be more noticibly guarded around others than some of the other types. To keep people at a distance, I psycholanalize everyone around me. And I become irritated on how unconscious they are. Total projection, I know, but it's automatic.
I'd like to not believe this, but I don't trust the world, people are complicated, neurotic, unpredictable, judging. Society, fate, the beaurocracy can take everything from us at any time.
This has got to be one of the biggest questions for all the types. How does one learn to exist in the openess and vulnerability of their nature, in a world that is unsupportive and dangerous? In our everyday lives, we don't have contact with a reality that we trust and feel holds us and supports us.
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.ron4
Member
9126 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 4:10:28 PM
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In my way of thinking, if I am fully awake
allows me to be aware of my surroundings
and begin to understand by experience .
ron
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radical_ed
Member
1314 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 5:40:12 PM
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What .ron4 said. Plus, a bit more:
quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
How does one learn to exist in the openess and vulnerability of their nature, in a world that is unsupportive and dangerous? In our everyday lives, we don't have contact with a reality that we trust and feel holds us and supports us.
Let me preface this by saying that I have been in your shoes. I have faced this dilemma for a long time. I have faced down a lot of medical and psychological problems in my life. Been hospitalized twice for emotional issues, even, several years ago. So, I know what I am talking about.
I presume (I hope, incorrectly) that you want someone to take your hand and tell you everything is going to be all right. If you can't handle anything else, then quit reading this post now. It's meant to give you a hand-up in the form of a kick in the butt, not a hand-out in form of comfort.
Instead of letting my past problems rule me, I now rule them. I have taken the steps to conquer these problems instead of let them conquer me. As a result of this experience, let me tell you what works for me and many other people:
I create the reality that I trust and hold and support, and I stay in contact with this reality. This reality is internal, not external. If you're waiting for a reality, internal or external, that will do those things you want for yourself, you're going to be waiting for the rest of your life. Instead, take responsibility for your internal states, both the ones that you enjoy and that you hate. That's the first step of self-control. (Note: This is obviously not easy and will require a lot of experience with trial and error.) Once you have your internal reality straight, you'll be prepared to take actions to take back control of your external reality from your circumstances, other people, and things that you cannot control. And you'll realize fully that you don't NEED to control the things you don't have control over, because the things that really matter ARE under your control.
I'd say good luck, but I believe good luck is when hard work meets opportunity. So, I'll say instead to take this opportunity to put forth the hard work you need to create your own luck in this world.
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Radical Edward
sx/sp 7w8 ENTP
Why the hell not?  |
Edited by - radical_ed on 02 Nov 2009 02:58:18 AM |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
13305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2009 : 5:45:49 PM
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being present in our bandwidth of health movement...higher to lower...is trustful and supportive.
not experiencing your bandwidth of health means trust and support are more personality based.
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 09:17:57 AM
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Hi Goodmourning,
I'm probably about to tell you stuff you already know, please take it as a nudge from a peer, not "advice" from someone on a high horse. Because I know 2w1 can sound preachy (a professor who didn't like my writing style once referred to me as a "confident" writer), so please know my objective is to share comments, not preach, and certainly not to assume anything negative about your level of knowledge.
Like you, my perception often ascribes my unhappiness (in whatever degree I'm unhappy at the time) to other people and to circumstances. However, if I look at the Dalai Lama, who has spent most of his life in exile, and whose people are oppressed and persecuted, yet who radiates peace and kindness.... or Don Riso, who was able to approach a physically debilitating circumstance with an attitude of curiosity rather than anger... or countless martyrs from many traditions who went with equanimity to execution... or others whether famous or not, who are full of joy or kindness or whatever their particular "flavor" of happiness is, in the icky unpleasant things both small and large... I think they are proof that it is possible to become healthy and mature without weeding out the difficult circumstances. I have also heard a couple of monastic types say that being in a monastery does not actually make it easier, in that you bring all your issues with you into the monastery, you still have to interface with your own issues and the issues of others who are there with you, and the ego always finds material to express itself, wherever you are.
Sometimes I try to regard difficulties as analogous to weights in physical training. Too little weight and you stay pretty weak. Too much and you get injured. The maximum benefit comes from using weight that is just at the threshold of your ability, intermixed with recovery time. So in this way the difficulties are no longer obstacles to my development, but tools to aid in it. It takes a certain amount of stuff "stirring up" my ego in order for me to become aware of what's there.
Sometimes I encounter situations that I don't know what to do with, that's what I hear you describing ("How does one learn to exist in the openess and vulnerability of their nature, in a world that is unsupportive and dangerous?") I think the details of the answer to that "how" vary according to the person and the situation, but one thing that stood out to me since I've had 5 stuff on my mind a lot lately due to the 5-children thread, is that you seem to have succinctly stated the E5 worldview. It reminds me of something I read about how we tend to project our early holding environment onto other people individually and the world as a whole. At the time I read it, it hit me pretty hard because I perceive the world as a whole as being filled mostly with people who are mean and intolerant, who will be quick to misinterpret, unwilling to listen, quick to become angry and reject me. At this point, I'm just at the step of acknowledging that might not be entirely the case... I don't yet perceive it elsewise, but can at least entertain the thought. Maybe that is where you are also? Just to realize how you have stated what the world looks like through an E5 lens... that what you have said is partly true but maybe not the whole story?
Last comment, it seems from what I've read (and I know you've probably read as much or more, so I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to bring up this topic/point) that what we are on our way to, is awareness of a support that is bigger and more constant than just the people around us, and safety that doesn't have boundaries at illness, injury or death. Please don't hear that as a platitude, I am so totally not in the neighborhood of that yet but am willing to believe those who say so from their own experience. For me as a Two, they say eventually my perception will shift from being dominated by a view of the world as so many people poised to reject me, to a world/universe composed and pervaded by love that cannot be lost. OK, I so do not perceive that. But I'll hold out hope that if I keep on with inner work it will shift eventually. So I meditate and get this sense of being held (that happens occasionally)... then I go to work and get criticized by some guy (not my boss) who thinks everything should be done the way he would do it, even if he is not on the project and is in no way affected by how it is done. So then I feel exposed, rejected, angry, endangered. The meditation, the holding, are like resting up and getting my protein drink... ok, here's this conflict, now for the heavy lifting where I see what my ego is doing and inquire as to the deeper dynamics, and what my alternatives might be.
I think on the usual timing, this is about the time that ~lee~ or Bear will post and say what I was trying to get at, only better and clearer and WAY more concisely (and from greater experience).
2w1 - ENFP |
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goodmourning
Member
228 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 10:03:27 AM
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Essence seems to emerge almost effortlessly and naturally in certain situations and environments. In everyday life, the defenses and antics of the types are constantly enacted, the potential for emergence/contact with Essence seems powerfully quelled. Thus, spiritualities have bias against the potential of lay practitioners.
All I'm discussing. |
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shakti
Member
USA
7845 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 11:05:57 AM
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| It may help to hold the journey to presence, journey with presence and journey as presence as a possible model to assist your mind (to honor what you notice and to assist with locating yourself and appreciate the experiences when they happen). Right now you are noticing various limits to what is possible in different environments and perhaps also differentiating between your reality and that of others (plus there might be a layer of 4 stuff that comes from sheep versus me identity and frustration). This certainly is why spiritual groups such as the Diamond Approach Group are needed. If you have the experience (even within the group or work with a particular person), it is easier to allow for this to happen outside of the work, and for this capacity to develop. It is possible to reach states of deep silence, open heart etc. but for the divine to incarnate within a human (amidst everyday conditions) it is process that is many years or decades or a lifetime or lifetimes (depending on how you view this). I like the notion of the pearl, where what was once an irritation is what gives rise to something luminescent and pearly, and that going to those places to open up so there can be a flow again takes courage among other things. |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 12:48:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
In everyday life, the defenses and antics of the types are constantly enacted, the potential for emergence/contact with Essence seems powerfully quelled
I don't think it helps that fives in particular feel so overwhelmed by the world that they often don't know how they are feeling about things in the moment. I'm 4w5 and I constantly get home and have regrets saying to myself, "I wish I'd done or said that" because at the time I just wasn't aware of how I was feeling. I'm not true to myself in most everyday situations.
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manda7panda
Member
178 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 1:00:35 PM
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Although I seem to have a knack for misunderstanding what you are saying, I am going to try one more post. If this one misses too, I'll just shut up (in this thread only, all bets are off elsewhere).
quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
Essence seems to emerge almost effortlessly and naturally in certain situations and environments. In everyday life, the defenses and antics of the types are constantly enacted, the potential for emergence/contact with Essence seems powerfully quelled.
Aren't you just saying that ego defenses block the experience of essence?
quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
Thus, spiritualities have bias against the potential of lay practitioners.
Is this to say that you feel "spiritualities" (systematized prescriptions for specific types of practices?) fail to address the ego defenses and/or the means by which they come about?
2w1 - ENFP |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
13305 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2009 : 1:20:22 PM
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| .....being intense/unsentimential/neurotic in an awake world..... |
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goodmourning
Member
228 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 11:23:17 AM
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I like how you're challenging, Art_Skidmore, without just being advice giving.
This is another thing, that's more of a positive insight, because I know exactly where to work on myself next. I just bring these things up for discussion. more cerebral antics, looking for further insight outside of my self. |
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Art_Skidmore
Member
13305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 11:45:38 AM
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| i tnink insight around here is lacking.....for example....observing the sun, earth and its moon as always being awake producing food for its creator and we are simply a sleeping speck that can influence the quality of this food thru waking up....changes ones insight of ones human existance..... |
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radical_ed
Member
1314 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 2:31:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
I like how you're challenging, Art_Skidmore, without just being advice giving.
That's very interesting, goodmourning. I misread your initial post as looking for advice, so that's what I gave. I take things literally and assume people say what they mean and what they actually want. People don't always operate that way -- and there's nothing wrong with that -- so taking things literally can be a weakness of mine at times. Thank you for your insight.
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Radical Edward
sx/sp 7w8 ENTP
Why the hell not? |
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Being Open/Vulernable/Awake in a Neurotic World
