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Desdemona
Member
USA
10419 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 5:47:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
also - Shakespeare was a 7w6
How so?
Don't have time for a long reply right now, but will get back to you. What type do you see him as?
I was walking past the mental hospital the other day, and all the patients were shouting, '13....13....13.' The fence was too high to see over, but I saw a little gap in the planks, so I looked through to see what was going on. Some idiot poked me in the eye with a stick! Then they all started shouting '14....14....14…....
7w6 cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 5:57:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Classi
dickens was who I struggled the most with. Like Shakespeare, he embodies so many contradiciting qualities.
Yes, I remember reading Dombey and Son and there's reems of information regarding maritime trade. He's such a visual writer, I can practically see Satis House in my mind's eye now. There's also alot of tension between his characters which I guess would point to the sexual instinct.
I can't be comfortable with him as sx/sp because his characters are just so snobby and preoccupied with social conventions, the ideal of "The gentleman" being a running theme.
When I first read Great Expectations at age 16 I thought dickens was a four because of all the sentimantality and longing and the ultimate four [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] Miss Havisham. But now I think 7 because there's a strong "The grass is always greener" theme and worrying that one can never be fully satisfied.
Also, something that doesn't fit with him being sp first is the way he damaged his health by never resting and being constantly on the go. He had alot of energy! But that could just be due to him being a 7
To me, "practically seeing" places usually equates to sp-first.
With soc-first, people are the place/environment, like a forest where people are the trees - and the contrasts in their heights and shapes are accentuated.
Dickens vibes as sp/so to me. There's a sense that his characters are 'representative men', not personal men, i.e.- he's sx-last. The representative element might also be indicative of E-type.
With sp/sx and sx/sp authors, my sense is that they infect their main characters with a particular 'fever'...and then linger on the fever's effects.
********* / *
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montag
Member
1170 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 6:19:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Dickens vibes as sp/so to me. . .i.e.- he's sx-last.
Ten kids and at least one longterm extramarital affair? Not bad for a sx-laster!
dickens: 1w2 soc/sx or sx/soc
Salinger: 4w5 soc/sx or sp/sx
Shakespeare: 7w6 sx/soc or soc/sx |
Edited by - montag on 04 Nov 2009 6:38:56 PM |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 6:30:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
also - Shakespeare was a 7w6
How so?
Don't have time for a long reply right now, but will get back to you. What type do you see him as?
Cheers. I don't know enough about him to even make a guess.
[Stormy] |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 6:36:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by montag
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Dickens vibes as sp/so to me. . .i.e.- he's sx-last.
Ten kids and at least one longterm extramarital affair? Not bad for a sx-laster!
All the sp/so's that I've recently checked had the requisite genitalia and libidos for affairs and major child-production.
I can think of a couple of famous hardcore sex addicts that are sx-lasters.
********* / *
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tagua seeds
Member
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2009 : 6:40:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
quote:
Originally posted by montag
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Dickens vibes as sp/so to me. . .i.e.- he's sx-last.
Ten kids and at least one longterm extramarital affair? Not bad for a sx-laster!
All the sp/so's that I've recently checked had the requisite genitalia and libidos for affairs and major child-production.
I can think of a couple of famous hardcore sex addicts that are sx-lasters.
********* / *
Not to mention that practically anyone with any social significance had extramarital affairs. I guess that hasn't really changed.
I'm thinking Ben Franklin might have been sx-last.
I'm smelling a new thread... |
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faultyideal
Member
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 12:57:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
also - Shakespeare was a 7w6
How so?
[Stormy]
based off of hamlet's soliloquy, i always thought sp 4
shakespeare may not have even existed, there's rumors that a few of his contemporaries wrote under his name, basically creating a man named shakespeare.
i don't buy into much of that though, it's just interesting.
INFP 4w5 sp/sx? |
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Veiled One
Member
4731 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 02:12:18 AM
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I type Hamlet's soliloquy as Sixish. Hamlet's problem is that of wobbling and hesitation and fear to act, and has little to do with struggle with self-image.
8w7 soc/sx, because sexual fives suck |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 03:48:35 AM
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| If we really went into an all out debate I think we could have arguements for Shakespeare being every type and stacking combo imaginable. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 03:51:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Veiled One
I type Hamlet's soliloquy as Sixish. Hamlet's problem is that of wobbling and hesitation and fear to act, and has little to do with struggle with self-image.
8w7 soc/sx, because sexual fives suck
No. The soliloquoy is about the value of existence, itself...his own and anyone else's. And he imagines the dreams that will come from the 'sleep of death'....the 'undiscovered country' on the Other Side. There's actually a sense of fantasy and wonder inside the pondering of his own death. That's the last place a 6 is going to go in such a circumstance.
Being at a stalemate as regards action-in-the-world is bigger for 4w5s (than for 6s) because reality is fluid, always melting. As compared to a 6 where reality oscillates between two distinct poles.
The 6 can therefore hold beliefs, for or against things/ideas/people, whereas the 4w5 is strained to hold value, much less the value of his own action. The 6 has the option of counteracting. The 4w5's counteraction quickly dissolves into "Why?"...because there's no belief to underpin it.
The 6 wants to know how to do something. The 4w5, as with Hamlet, wants to know 'why do anything?'
"To die, to sleep". He says the phrase twice. 'Sleep' gets five mentions altogether - this is a classic 4 mix of passivity and depression. Notice, that despite it all, he's still got his imagination....dreams....
********* / *
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 04:24:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by montag
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Dickens vibes as sp/so to me. . .i.e.- he's sx-last.
Ten kids and at least one longterm extramarital affair? Not bad for a sx-laster!
dickens: 1w2 soc/sx or sx/soc
Salinger: 4w5 soc/sx or sp/sx
Shakespeare: 7w6 sx/soc or soc/sx
I could see Salinger as sx/so 4w5. Don't see dickens as a one though, how comes you think that? I'm intrigued |
Edited by - Classi on 05 Nov 2009 04:25:36 AM |
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Classi
Member
331 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 04:28:43 AM
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| Thinking about Shakespeare's stacking, his writing is very political, I see social first. |
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Veiled One
Member
4731 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 04:59:50 AM
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Just for kicks anyhow...here're two versions of Hamlet's famous soliloquy, by sir Lawrence Olivier (a Four) and Mel Gibson (a Six), and how they tried to grasp the inner demons of the Danish prince.
Lawrence Olivier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-R9neKwczo
Mel Gibson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwFzvg3L2Qg
8w7 soc/sx, because sexual fives suck |
Edited by - Veiled One on 05 Nov 2009 05:00:23 AM |
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 09:39:41 AM
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It's evident for me, looking at "Hamlet's Demons, that they are sixish
iso fourish... In this case Gibson (watched it twice) played a natural
role..
As a side note, Vo, what about "Purcell" (famous composer), same mysterious figure as "Shakespeare" was ?
I should also say 7w6..
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself. |
Edited by - baba on 05 Nov 2009 09:43:11 AM |
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faultyideal
Member
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 10:42:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
It's evident for me, looking at "Hamlet's Demons, that they are sixish
iso fourish... In this case Gibson (watched it twice) played a natural
role..
As a side note, Vo, what about "Purcell" (famous composer), same mysterious figure as "Shakespeare" was ?
I should also say 7w6..
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself.
i always thought gibson's version was a little boring. he just runs through the lines, not squeezing any juice out of them.
i always especially hated when someone just rattled off the first line, the premise. to me, he plays the role more shocked than depressed.
INFP 4w5 sp/sx? |
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faultyideal
Member
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 10:52:44 AM
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never saw this place before, so i don't know how credible, but i'll post:
http://www.pageonelit.com/WriteWay/JSearle.html
"In Enneagram terms, Hamlet is a Six (The Pessimist), preoccupied with worst-case scenarios, mistrustful, continually testing the loyalties of friends and family, often immobilized by his fears. The "To be or not to be" soliloquy, a distinctively Six interior monologue, illustrates the type's fundamental anxiety and contradictions. Hamlet's character arc--beginning with a fearful inability to act, moving through rash and counterproductive actions to a final calm acceptance of his destiny--is predicted by the inner lines of the Enneagram diagram."
versus a short mention of hamlet in:
http://www.enneagramcentral.com/Enneagram/Subtypes/Subtype%20Four%20Self%20Preservation.htm
"The worst case scenario of a depressed Self-Preservation Four is, of course, suicide. Read Hamlet's soliloquy from the point of view of a Self-Preservation Four and it is quite enlightening. The fundamental question of a Self-Preservation is being: how to be, and more radically, whether to be or not to be."
INFP 4w5 sp/sx? |
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the_eye
Member
Romania
4183 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 12:24:26 PM
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JK Rowling - 5w6
George Orwell - 5w6
'mich interessiert kein Gleichgewicht/ mir scheint die Sonne ins Gesicht' |
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baba
Member
1132 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 1:44:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
JK Rowling - 5w6
George Orwell - 5w6
'mich interessiert kein Gleichgewicht/ mir scheint die Sonne ins Gesicht'
Orwell = 6
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself. |
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Elioditus
Member
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 2:02:49 PM
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Oscar Wilde 3w4 sp/sx
Jane Austen 1w9 ?/?
JD Salinger 4w5 sp/sx
Charles dicken 1w2 ?/?
Joseph Conrad 5w4 sx/sp
Shakespeare 4w3 sx/?
Shakespeare cannot be a 7w6 because his conception of Beauty is not crisp enough. 7w6s are insatiably lucid writers. It seems they find no beauty in juxtaposing disparate words in adjective/noun combinations. They seem to disdain such illuminating but vague word mishmashes as "greater malady", "contentious storm", "filial ingratitude" (These examples are plucked from King Lear). Shakespeare's language loops and expands upon itself, sometimes coming to a complete standstill in moments of indulgent ornamentation. This man is an aesthete. Now I am not saying that 7w6s lack a conception of beauty, but for them beauty is secondary to movement. They want the arrival. I believe one can see this in their language: "I was walking past the mental hospital the other day, and all the patients were shouting, '13....13....13.' The fence was too high to see over, but I saw a little gap in the planks, so I looked through to see what was going on. Some idiot poked me in the eye with a stick! Then they all started shouting '14....14....14…....". You see? She makes so much good sense, and most sevens do. One does not spend time wondering over the possibilities of their sentences. Their sentences are not vague, they are literal. They mean what they say, in contrast to fours, who are not always sure what they mean. The seven's extravagance in art is displayed in their rambling grandeur, when their good sensible vision articulates wild incongruities, when worlds collide. The fourish aesthetic is similar to watching a rosebud bloom into fullest beauty and then withering into death: One must stand for a while. The seven sees the rose and likes it, and picks it and tucks it behind their ear, and then goes and squashes some bugs. Ooooooooh! Green bug juice!!!
And of course we know little about Shakespeare’s personal life. But we do know that John Keats’ style reveals a similarly plush vitality. And there is much written about him. Perhaps their natures were similar? Now what type was John Keats? I say 4w3 sx/?. Go read a [blocked due to guideline #4 violation]biography.
Elioditus, the dinosaur man
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Edited by - Elioditus on 05 Nov 2009 2:05:52 PM |
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the_eye
Member
Romania
4183 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 2:15:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by baba
quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
JK Rowling - 5w6
George Orwell - 5w6
'mich interessiert kein Gleichgewicht/ mir scheint die Sonne ins Gesicht'
Orwell = 6
A parent must also not be afraid to hang himself.
What have you read? He's way too much creativity out-of-the-box to be a more conventional 6. Dread, yes, is something present all around in '1984' for instance but I don't think is that of a 6.
'mich interessiert kein Gleichgewicht/ mir scheint die Sonne ins Gesicht' |
Edited by - the_eye on 05 Nov 2009 2:17:26 PM |
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Veiled One
Member
4731 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 2:23:25 PM
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Sheesh...did I smell value judgments here? Sixes cannot be creative huh? And just before you were lecturing me for making value judgments.
8w7 soc/sx, because sexual fives suck |
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the_eye
Member
Romania
4183 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 2:27:41 PM
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 Seemingly it's an ordinary sin.
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the_eye
Member
Romania
4183 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 2:31:47 PM
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Sixes can be creative naturally although we must have indicators to tell the difference between a 5's creativity and a 6's creativity.
'mich interessiert kein Gleichgewicht/ mir scheint die Sonne ins Gesicht' |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
6546 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 2:47:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Veiled One
Just for kicks anyhow...here're two versions of Hamlet's famous soliloquy, by sir Lawrence Olivier (a Four) and Mel Gibson (a Six), and how they tried to grasp the inner demons of the Danish prince.
Lawrence Olivier
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-R9neKwczo
Mel Gibson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwFzvg3L2Qg
8w7 soc/sx, because sexual fives suck
I like Mel's version better...but it doesn't quite fully grab. Though there are other sections of the movie where he does pretty well.
I'll say my Hamlet argument more succinctly...
If you know E6 you know that their default religion is "sustenance of physical well-being/physical survival". So, being-or-not-being is not going to be the question.
In effect, they're past that question...and live inside the 'how to be' question.
If your argument is that we're looking at a fully suicidal 6, you need to have an explanation for sleeping perchance to dream in the Temple of Physical Survival.
********* / *
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
12541 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2009 : 3:01:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Veiled One
I type Hamlet's soliloquy as Sixish. Hamlet's problem is that of wobbling and hesitation and fear to act, and has little to do with struggle with self-image.
Maybe the character overall, but the soliloquy seems to be more concerned with the worth of acting (whether action or inaction is 'nobler in the mind') than fear of acting per se.
[Stormy] |
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