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awakening
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USA
2512 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2010 :  9:31:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit awakening's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is a topic that has interested me for a while, and I suppose it ultimately concerns a question of Enneagram and MBTI correspondence. Introverts can be found in several Enneagram types that are not generally considered "introspective;" Eights, Ones, Sixes, and Threes (types whose energies are generally seen as directed outwards). We even find some distinctly expressed introverts in among "assertive" types, and borderline extraverts among "withdrawn" types.

What is it to be introspective, and what is it to be introverted? There is a murky place within me that I can introspect on if I allow myself to really relax; often I discover things about myself and start to become very emotional. This is not my default setting, and I am generally much more focused on something outside of myself; a book, a film, a task, a project, a plan, and so on. Yet, I am a clear introvert and always have been. I feel more comfortable alone, with the exception of enjoying the company of very close friends and family who sometimes seem to give me more energy.

It seems like the types most prone to introspection are Fives and Fours, and reflecting on their internal states often becomes problematic and distracting for them.

I'm somewhat more interested in the types who are introverts but not especially introspective, needing time alone but not because it allows them to look into themselves more clearly, but because they feel more able to focus on whatever else drives the personality (tasks, planning, power, studying, theorizing, entertainment, distractions).

I'm curious to hear what others think is the difference between introspection and introversion; introspective means looking inward, and introverted means turned inward...they seem like synonyms, but being alone doesn't necessarily imply looking inward, and those who prefer solitude often look mainly outward (towards the world) without the interference of others. There seem to be some implicit contradictions in what is suggested by these terms.



Odyssey
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4138 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2010 :  10:56:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Odyssey's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Introversion is the state of being interested primarily in one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations.

Introspection is the action of looking into one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations.
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Rich
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USA
4763 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2010 :  11:21:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Rich's Homepage  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by awakening

This is a topic that has interested me for a while, and I suppose it ultimately concerns a question of Enneagram and MBTI correspondence. Introverts can be found in several Enneagram types that are not generally considered "introspective;" Eights, Ones, Sixes, and Threes (types whose energies are generally seen as directed outwards). We even find some distinctly expressed introverts in among "assertive" types, and borderline extroverts among "withdrawn" types.

*** The claim in MB, that introverts have to retreat inward to regain energy is not necessarily so. I'm a hyperactive, introverted 3, and I can give the Energizer Bunny a run for his/her money. I need quiet time to settle my nerves and decompress. As a SJ-SP3W4, I can't claim that I am a reflective person about myself. However, if what is said about INTJs in MB is true, they would not fit " introspective " very well as Ennea 3s or 8S either. This does not seem to be strictly, just a " N " or " S " question. Perhaps the terms need to be tightened some more....
/

ISTJ & SP-3W4
Serious-Sensitive-Inventive-Leisurely Styles
HER:Self Sacrificing-Dramatic-Conscientious-Aggressive styles SP-2W1 ISFJ
My philosophy of life: Love will get you through.
I learned to dissemble at an early age.

Edited by - Rich on 03 Jan 2010 11:25:36 PM
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blackLight
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USA
6367 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  01:32:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit blackLight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'd make the distinction that introspection is thinking about the self, situations the self is involved in, feelings, etc., whereas introversion is more of a way of processing information and using energy. I like Elizabeth Wagele's take on introversion. At the heart of most conflicts I have with extroverts is this:

Introverts reflect on new information at length
and react relatively slowly


Extroverts are geared more for action, so they
reflect and react almost at the same time

http://www.wagele.com/NigelReview.html
http://www.wagele.com/IntroReview.html

IME extroverts process externally - they talk with others to understand/refine their ideas, and the opposite is true for introverts. Looking at it in this way, it's easy to see that someone could be introverted without getting trapped in introspection. You could sit by the sidelines and watch (introversion) while not getting wrapped up in thoughts & feelings about the self. Even very assertive 3s & 8s can be quite introspective, but they flip out of introversion more easily & more frequently.
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DigitalCrash
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4435 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  02:25:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit DigitalCrash's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bear

I'd make the distinction that introspection is thinking about the self, situations the self is involved in, feelings, etc., whereas introversion is more of a way of processing information and using energy. I like Elizabeth Wagele's take on introversion. At the heart of most conflicts I have with extroverts is this:

Introverts reflect on new information at length
and react relatively slowly


Extroverts are geared more for action, so they
reflect and react almost at the same time

http://www.wagele.com/NigelReview.html
http://www.wagele.com/IntroReview.html

IME extroverts process externally - they talk with others to understand/refine their ideas, and the opposite is true for introverts. Looking at it in this way, it's easy to see that someone could be introverted without getting trapped in introspection. You could sit by the sidelines and watch (introversion) while not getting wrapped up in thoughts & feelings about the self. Even very assertive 3s & 8s can be quite introspective, but they flip out of introversion more easily & more frequently.




Hunh, in that respect, I guess I am more introverted than I am extroverted. I always find myself reflecting on new information, and reacting relatively slowly. Really, I have trouble having a good sense of wit. =\ I wish I did though. It'd be nice to joke around with others better, without having to spend so much time on trying to figure out how to respond on a joke.

I also, too, find myself doing the opposite when it comes to coming up with ideas.

I have always preferred being a solitary thinker. Meaning, I prefer to think things through on my own. For some reason, I find that when I ask someone to explain something to me that I don't understand, I have a more troubling time than if I spend the time to think it through on my own. I guess it also has to do with a feeling of shame though. That is, I don't want to take too much of the person's time, and thus, having to work with others makes it more of a burden to me. If I don't understand something, I can only ask for so long, before I call it quits as a result of fearing that I may be annoying the other person by "not getting it."

Though, I guess that doesn't really have much to do with introversion, as it does have to do with shame, does it? I suppose, though, that it does make the person more likely to act introverted, which I'll admit, I do.

Still, as has been shown multiple times here, I do like the idea of exchanging ideas for the sake of refining my own ideas. I don't mind that. I guess it's a good thing for the internet, because I can take my time, and don't have to respond immediately.

So, would this be more of ambiversion? I also don't think I could stand the idea of doing it all on my own.

To some degree, I do rely on other people to understand things better. Mainly teachers who are teaching the entire class (and thus their entire attention isn't directed on me - eliminating the problems of shame). When they do teach, I can generally find myself keeping up with the lecture too. Not having to think too much of it to understand it. Which, I guess is, according to that respect, extroverted.

Hmm... :S yup, considering everything, I am an extrovert. Though, I suppose I do have slight introverted tendencies.

2w3 So/Sx/Sp, ENFJ 2-5-9
"And although we have no obligation - to stay alive - on broken backs we beg for mercy - we will survive!" - Behind Closed Doors, Rise Against
Zodiac:
Sagitarrius (Greek)
Horse (Chinese)
Owl (Native American)
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the_eye
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Romania
5070 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  07:27:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit the_eye's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Probably anyone with introverted Intuition or Thinking (MB typology) as primary or secondary cognitive function is able to do some introspection, more or less.

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Stormy
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16492 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  07:50:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by awakening

I'm curious to hear what others think is the difference between introspection and introversion...


Introspection is interest in one's internal processes (e.g. subjective reactions, personal history, feeling states).

Introversion is disinterest in externals (lack of external input required to feel stimulated).

[Stormy]

Edited by - Stormy on 04 Jan 2010 07:53:07 AM
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anon1
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7611 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  12:50:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit anon1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
How do you explain my friends husband who is very opionated about EVERYTHING. He's 61 years old. Nothing is right and he thinks he knows better. Other than that you don't hear a peep out of him!
I can relate to an extent. I too am a critical thinker.
I type him cp 6w5 and so is my friend. However if you get us three in a room, I stand out like a sore thumb in that I'm from the heart triad. I'm usually referring to my emotions rather than my cerebral cortex.
Those two, they wouldn't be caught dead speaking of emotions. They barely embrace each other. Wouldn't even know they are married.
She takes the backseat when he's around otherwise she's quite the same. We went out to dinner the other night and the watress had a high pitched voice and he wouldn't shut up about it. It made for a very uncomfortable dinner experience. I totally got what he was saying but my motivation was to think that it's unkind to be so shallow. Type 1 & 6's tend to have me "think" about things, which isn't always such a bad thing. Type 9 fixates me the most however. I don't get on well with a complete absense of mind & soul. Not to mention that whole body experience. It bothers me.



4w3 sx/sp/so


Edited by - anon1 on 04 Jan 2010 1:06:02 PM
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The Wayfarer
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USA
4432 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  1:17:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit The Wayfarer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am pretty introverted (about 70-90 percent) but being social I'm good at reading external cues. I enjoy bouncing ideas off of others but only after milling them around in my head.

I'm also extremely introspective which can denigrate into self absorption if I'm not cognizant of it.

I think one can be introverted and still be cognizant of outside influences, we generally call this (in social psychology or communication) as being high self monitoring in that you are intune with both one's own internal processes and the external cues you are getting. 6s are usually adept at both monitoring outside influences while still plugging into their own self talk (of course stacking and wing play a role in this). Also even a social withdrawn type will have a certain amount of acuity when reading the group. I can often read the group or others quite well but what I read often remains internal and is processed via my intuiting function.


Sturgeon48
4w5 so/sp 4-7-8
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goodmourning
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USA
781 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  2:12:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit goodmourning's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I used to be extremely introverted, socially. Now, there is a sense of being able to be introverted/extroverted as need be. By years of hard work on my character.
But I'm naturally very introspective. This seems much more neutral, and not subject to change fundamentally, as opposed to interpersonal style.
Not that there isn't still a pull to be introverted, that I must keep watch of.
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anon1
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7611 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  2:59:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit anon1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You are who you are. I don`t get being introverted is some sort of handicap but rather an interesting and perhaps necessary way of being. Imagine everyone shooting off their mouth with every given motivation. Keep it in check, I say.


4w3 sx/sp/so

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sunny
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USA
11857 Posts

Posted - 04 Jan 2010 :  5:08:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit sunny's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sp 1st people sometimes seem introverted even in Ennea-types that are usually thought to be extroverted. They tend to be more careful and guarded.

7/6sx/sp
That's what I said.


Edited by - sunny on 04 Jan 2010 6:05:57 PM
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Stormy
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16492 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  01:17:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kanji

This doesn't seem quite right Stormy, as externals include things such as reading, painting, writing, gardening and many other things that introverted people seem to be interested in.[quote]

Originally posted by Stormy
Introversion is disinterest in externals (lack of external input required to feel stimulated).


Books don't answer back. Not rapidly, anyway.

[Stormy]
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enneathing
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4677 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  02:11:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit enneathing's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I assume that 3w4s are who you are referring to as distinctly expressed introverts among assertive types, and Nines (mainly 9w8s) and 4w3s are who you are referring to as borderline extraverts among withdrawn types. I can't imagine a 7 or 8 being an Ixxx on the Myers-Briggs, maybe an 8w9? 3w4s, in my experiences, aren't really that introverted, although often spend a lot of time alone with their work, depending what their work is. I wouldn't go so far as to call them introverts, although they're usually more composed than the 4w3, and sometimes quieter.

I'll share my idea of introspection as I have come to understand it.

Introspection is contemplating on your own inner feelings, reactions and impulses. Whether these were brought on by an external stimulus is irrelevant. The Four is, by generalization, the most introspective type. To introspect is to get to know onself better, therefore it is a very Fourish process by nature. Fives also tend to be introspective, I agree, though they don't seem to be as obsessed with analyzing their internal states as the Four is. The Four is also obsessed with externals that are to do with themselves. Fives, in contrast, become obsessive about certain externals, however they are selective with the externals they obsess over. So, a lot of their thinking, analyzing and obsessing cannot be classified as 'introspecting' because it is all over external stimuli, and whatever relates to that particular external stimuli. Even though this analysis is usually done in an independent fashion, and the Fives analyzes alone for fear of being overwhelmed, it is not necessarily introspection.

I think the introspection of the Five and Four are different. I would say that the Fives 'introspection' can be problematic in that they get to abstract in their thought. They don't typical use practical means to attaining knownledge they use abstract theoretics. All this abstract analysis can be problematic because it distracts from reality and may cause illusions about reality and the like. That said, I am not a Five, so I could be wrong in my subjective interpretation of how this is experienced.

While I often find it draining to be in a group of people I don't know, being around the people I am comfortable with can also give me energy. If I am with an individual or a group of people I'm not that familiar and everything goes particularly well, it can energize me even though it wouldn't usually. I think this is because, somehow, the boundary I usually feel between me and others has dissolved because somehow* it has lessened my self doubt to the extent that I can kind of be myself, or at least reveal myself to some extent.

I would say that Ones are of the nature of being 'introverted' but not introspective. However, it's not necessarily that they need to be alone while doing it, it's that they're so focused on doing it their own (or at least one specific) way. They have an idea of what's right and don't generally let others influence their behaviour. However, they are not introverted because their attention is also on improving the external reality in a practical manner. In this way, they are the opposite of Five because they are so focused on being practical in order to obtain some kind of outer perfection. One could say that, because they have an idea of what a perfect reality could be, there is some internal inspection, but I think a lot of it is based on the flaws of the outer world and how perfect it could be, different to the Fours more self absorbed comparison which is more based in identity, fantasy and grandiosity.

I think Eli-Jaxon Bear had a good way of putting what Riso and Hudson described as one type overexpressing, one underexpressing and one being out of touch with the primary center, sometimes likened to extraversion, introversion and ambiversion. He puts it this way in his book 'From Fixation to Freedom':

2- The exteriorized image point
3- The core image point
4- The interiorized image

5- The interiorize fear point
6- The core fear point
7- The exteriorized fear point

8- The exteriorized anger point
9- The core anger point
1- The interiorized anger point

quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner

I'd take it a step further than both of you and put it this way... introverts are energized by externals that compliment their internal reality.




Good point.

Edited by - enneathing on 05 Jan 2010 07:15:20 AM
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Stormy
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16492 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  06:55:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kanji

My examples may have been bad... what about television shows, theatre and movies, etc. -- these provide external input which many introverts probably enjoy.


Note how the introvert is an observer in those instances, not actually engaged in the action him or herself.

[Stormy]
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Zapperbazzer
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1612 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  11:39:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit Zapperbazzer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy

quote:
Originally posted by Kanji

My examples may have been bad... what about television shows, theatre and movies, etc. -- these provide external input which many introverts probably enjoy.


Note how the introvert is an observer in those instances, not actually engaged in the action him or herself.

[Stormy]



Yes, listening to music or watching a show/film is something external aiding an internal experience.
You couldn't focus on your inner experience while trying to have a conversation, too much effort. A conversation needs sustained active external focus.
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the_eye
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Romania
5070 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  12:33:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit the_eye's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stormy

quote:
Originally posted by Kanji

My examples may have been bad... what about television shows, theatre and movies, etc. -- these provide external input which many introverts probably enjoy.


Note how the introvert is an observer in those instances, not actually engaged in the action him or herself.

[Stormy]

According to your definition an introvert is never engaged in action and that's simply not true. An introvert repairing an engine or an introvert performing a job is involved with the external.
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Stormy
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16492 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2010 :  2:14:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the_eye

According to your definition an introvert is never engaged in action and that's simply not true. According to your definition an introvert is never engaged in action and that's simply not true. An introvert repairing an engine or an introvert performing a job is involved with the external.


My definition didn't mention action; one may be involved without interest (although perhaps I should have explicitly said the definitions were tendencies, not absolutes).

[Stormy]

Edited by - Stormy on 05 Jan 2010 2:17:58 PM
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ItsDone
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18 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2010 :  05:16:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit ItsDone's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As someone who's fairly introverted myself, I do have a hard time distinguishing between the two. I'm pretty sure that I have a good dose of both introversion and introspection as a prominent part of my personaity, and they may express themselves differently in my psyche.

This topic seems to mainly be addressing definitions and how they can be murky and confusing. Introversion and extraversion aren't really that clearly defined to begin with, but your best bet in clearing it up would to go to the source. Who came up with these terms? Was it Jung? If so, reading up on his ideas and theories would be a good idea. If not, it will be someone else who maybe had a different idea about it. Any other definitions, especially recent ones, may just be interpretation. This may be why the meanings of these words seem synonymous. I think the original intention of many words has been changed, because people have different interpretations of them and the original meaning gets lost a long the way.
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