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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2011 : 11:50:08 PM
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I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's frustrated with the view of Type 4 being fragile little weeping willows, or impossible divas. Can anyone name some 4s who are actually strong, assertive, and have balls/ovaries of steel? Someone you know personally or a famous person, alive or dead.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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Fleets
Member
1056 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 12:38:04 AM
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Ovaries of steel? Problematic.
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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 12:49:57 AM
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Can't be worse than balls of steel. 
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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pork
Member
USA
5105 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 03:28:01 AM
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Soft in manner, steely in substance.
^(oo)^ |
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Fleets
Member
1056 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 04:00:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by This Bitter Earth
Can't be worse than balls of steel.
Rattlers.
(To answer your question there is a lot more
emphasis placed on nine fixers as the four description.) |
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pork
Member
USA
5105 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 06:41:58 AM
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Robert De Niro, Orson Welles, Chrissie Hynde - often mistaken for more-aggressive types.
^(oo)^ |
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MichelleM
Member
339 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 07:52:59 AM
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Alanyss Morisette, Sarah McGlaughlin?
I know Johnny Depp and Michael Jackson are both perceived as fragile 4s. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11062 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 10:36:45 AM
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4 and 8 are structural inversions of each other....so, whatever that says about 4s and toughness.
It sounds totally gay, but, with the E, whenever there's a multiple of 3 or 9 there's a meaningful association to be made.
4 + 8 = 12 (1 + 2 = 3)
5 and 1 are similar inversions.
4 and 8 are (equally) the two most radically individualistic of the E. If the World's momentum naturally rushes toward various forms of collectivism, there would have to be a genuinely sturdy architectural design as bulwark against the aggregate outer force.
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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 1:41:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by MichelleM
Alanis Morisette, Sarah McLaughlin?
I know Johnny Depp and Michael Jackson are both perceived as fragile 4s.
Johnny Depp seems pretty tough in his own way (otherwise, why has been playing a pirate all these years?). But Michael Jackson, ugh...such a stereotype.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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EMike583
Member
USA
1466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 3:22:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
4 and 8 are structural inversions of each other....so, whatever that says about 4s and toughness.
It sounds totally gay, but, with the E, whenever there's a multiple of 3 or 9 there's a meaningful association to be made.
4 + 8 = 12 (1 + 2 = 3)
5 and 1 are similar inversions.
4 and 8 are (equally) the two most radically individualistic of the E. If the World's momentum naturally rushes toward various forms of collectivism, there would have to be a genuinely sturdy architectural design as bulwark against the aggregate outer force.
This is actually exactly what Naranjo says. He talks about how types directly opposite each other on the Enneagram figure ("antipodes") have many things in common. He lists E4/E8, E5/E1, and E2/E7 as examples of this. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 6:16:10 PM
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me
:)
lovesaid is a good example too. he has a new name now i can't recall. orpheous?
um other 4s too have been on the board sturgeon and many others who would't be blown away in any breeze. some of them are more glass like though. colder.
pork i think is a good strong example of that sort of cold sharp feel. precise and formidable.
-beeotchy for fun and profit-
current lololo8 status:
random. |
Edited by - lovemyth on 24 Jul 2011 6:21:39 PM |
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ganglion
Member
Netherlands
1598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2011 : 10:07:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by This Bitter Earth
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's frustrated with the view of Type 4 being fragile little weeping willows, or impossible divas. Can anyone name some 4s who are actually strong, assertive, and have balls/ovaries of steel? Someone you know personally or a famous person, alive or dead.
I met and calculated many fours that realised that others (not feeling the truth of live as deep as they did) were considering them as softies and vague .
I have a 4 sensitive Pisces 16 years old four daughter, that has a very different energy then her not understanding this inner vagueness goal oriented mother and suffers a lot from it.
She studies Latin, maths and more and does this well without knowing the use of it as she is just a modern girl more interested in Facebook. She has no idea about the interests (obsessions) of her father, she has an unique 4 viewpoint of her own. And I appreciate and support this.
Now back to the fours.
Maybe they cannot present themselves on the current media, I calculated a lot of brilliant fours (most often w5) on:
http://vissesh.home.xs4all.nl/mystiek/enneagram/famous.html
I calculated great romantic (often Nobel price level) poets, romancers,historians, politicians, biologists, chemists, physicians, physicists, mathematicians, mystical philosophers and theologians, etc.
Not to mention the pure 4 artists...
So don´t tell me a 4 is vague weeping willow..
The feeling deep 4 way is the path to the 4>1 (sum 5)renewal.
Ganglion |
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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2011 : 12:16:02 AM
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Yukio Mishima is probably my favorite kind of 4. He very much sought to merge the intellectual and the sensual, strength and beauty. Too bad he killed himself in such a spectacular fashion...or was it bad?
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2011 : 01:04:12 AM
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there is a fearsome beauty in suicide. it can be the ultimate message or at the very least it can be conceptualized as such.
yes yes i know sucide sucks blah and blah pain and all that.
i can just understand it as a powerful emotional and philosophical statement
ps don't do it
pps- seriously don't. you can make much better statements in life.and the evolutions you can experience are so much more.
-beeotchy for fun and profit-
current lololo8 status:
random. |
Edited by - lovemyth on 25 Jul 2011 01:14:01 AM |
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2011 : 06:49:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lovemyth
yes yes i know sucide sucks blah and blah pain and all that.
LOL 
quote:
ps don't do it
pps- seriously don't. you can make much better statements in life.and the evolutions you can experience are so much more.
Are you fearing to be sued for invitation to suicide ?  |
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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2011 : 8:09:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
quote:
Originally posted by lovemyth
yes yes i know sucide sucks blah and blah pain and all that.
LOL
quote:
ps don't do it
pps- seriously don't. you can make much better statements in life.and the evolutions you can experience are so much more.
Are you fearing to be sued for invitation to suicide ?
Seriously, I agree. Why backpedal on something like that?
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11062 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 09:22:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by EMike583
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
4 and 8 are structural inversions of each other....so, whatever that says about 4s and toughness.
It sounds totally gay, but, with the E, whenever there's a multiple of 3 or 9 there's a meaningful association to be made.
4 + 8 = 12 (1 + 2 = 3)
5 and 1 are similar inversions.
4 and 8 are (equally) the two most radically individualistic of the E. If the World's momentum naturally rushes toward various forms of collectivism, there would have to be a genuinely sturdy architectural design as bulwark against the aggregate outer force.
This is actually exactly what Naranjo says. He talks about how types directly opposite each other on the Enneagram figure ("antipodes") have many things in common. He lists E4/E8, E5/E1, and E2/E7 as examples of this.
Yeah, 2 and 7 are another set. But I think those three groupings (4/8, 1/5, 2/7) are the only I'd put in the 'inversion' category.
E2: People-orientation with an underlying (covert) object/experience-orientation
E7: Object/experience-orientation with an underlying (covert) people-orientation
...Although you can also run horizontal lines across the E-symbol and come up with further sensible reciprocal relationships. Each adding up to 9, by the way. 
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 09:58:29 AM
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Yes 4 and 8 are the strongest individualists. I use to refer to "strong personality" for 8, and "strong individuality" for 4.
For 8s, the "I do what I want" is more like a reaction to someone trying to control them. For 4s, it's the drive of (inner) life. However 4s can have a very soft façade to avoid conflicts, and thus have the freedom to do what they want.
However both types can show an unusual availability to people they have decided to care for, because they can resist or ignore what is going on around easily. Individuality is mainly an ability to have little influences from the outside. |
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4wants8
Member
3284 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 6:30:29 PM
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This is an apt description...this is how I feel in relation to the world...
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pork
Member
USA
5105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2011 : 7:48:17 PM
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Are you the tanks or the pedestrian?
^(oo)^ |
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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 12:53:59 AM
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Somebody mentioned Lord Byron. He's the quintessential 4 to me; strength and beauty combined.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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4wants8
Member
3284 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 9:58:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
Are you the tanks or the pedestrian?
I'm the roadblock!
--------------------------
Please take a moment to allow this information to sink in. |
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dusty
Member
2897 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 10:37:25 PM
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| You're not doing a very good job. |
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dusty
Member
2897 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2011 : 10:47:50 PM
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| This Bitter Earth, did you figure out your type yet? |
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This Bitter Earth
Member
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2011 : 12:42:02 AM
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Either 4w5 SX or 4w3 SP. I'm favoring the latter.
This bitter earth...yes, can be so cold. |
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Topic |
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Type 4s Who Aren't Softies
