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Originally posted by queen
...But, I've always ..always had extremely high self-esteem...

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Originally posted by eidbuser

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Originally posted by thomg



Why EU?

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Well I realized that part of it is because most type descriptions don't understand the core wound of 9 at all. Sandra Maitri's is the only one that does this to a significant degree.

I think the connection between 9 and 3 often gives 9s a sense of being 'private 4s.' Often hating and envying people for not being able to live up to their own potential. The fear that you're not allowed to be who you are, that you have to hide yourself and not draw too much attention to yourself.

9s generally act very easygoing and nonchalant on the surface. But deep down they long to be seen as very special people, and suffer deeply for their specialness being unrecognized. Deep down, 9s feel supremely ugly and that they will never be truly loved - that love, goodness, happiness and fulfillment is not for them, but for other people. 9s go numb and passively dead because they are covering over this deep sense of being eternally unloved. They long to be loved but don't feel that it will ever be possible for them. They become hopeless and resigned to ever being truly seen for who they are.

There's the internal sense that other people won't let me shine. Compared to others you are subtly inferior and never able to fully be yourself. More than any other type, 9s are still identified with being a little boy or girl in a world of big grown ups that belittle you and don't acknowledge you as a full human being in your own right. So you slink into the shadows because you are unseen as god made manifest.

We live in a world where people are asleep to the essence that lives in every human being.

The childlike innocence and underdeveloped ego of the 9 gives them a greater access to an objective perception of reality, that we are all one, that we are all god, that we are all nature, that life is inherently beautiful and full of love. But they often fail to ever grow up and embody this in a real way. Often they live in the dream of oneness that they remember from childhood, and their attachment to the child's experience of essence causes them to never really want to grow up.

There is the quality of the puer aeternus to 9s, because they remember the magic of childhood that was infused with essence. They don't want to grow up because they want to remain connected to their essence through memory and imagination. They don't want to enter the world of grown-ups that have become so hopelessly out of touch with their essence, so they fail to develop a real sense of themselves as a mature human essence. Often this can take the form of attachment to early childhood relationships and beliefs, but under the surface it is the desire to remain in touch with essence.

9s fail to develop their essence when they remain attached to childhood experiences of it. 9s need to see that they are never really disconnected from essence, and that growing up and developing themselves as a person will never disconnect them from the ground of being that they desire to remain in touch with. 9s need to realize that they themselves are the ground of being become manifest through form, and that living a full human life deeply in touch with themselves is the most complete way to remain in contact with the world of essence.

9s don't fully inhabit their bodies because they are still identified with having the bodies of little children. The message they received as children was to suppress their natural instinctual energies, and this cut them off from the natural growth of their organism. To regain access to essence, 9s must re-establish contact with their instinctual energies, and awaken to their presence as physical beings in the universe.

On a subconscious level, 9s are still identified with the non-existent source of all manifestation, the non-being prior to being. 9s need to awaken to the fact that they exist in this world as the expression of the absolute nature of reality. This means realizing that they were born, that they are human, that they have a body, and that their body and their sense of self is the greatest gift to the world. They don't need to hide in fear of existence any longer.

Awakened 9s overcome the feeling that their existence is completely inconsequential. They realize that they are an intrinsic part of the whole universe. In fact, they realize that they are the center of the universe, and that the entire universe was created for their glory and their enjoyment. When 9s awaken to themselves, they know that they are no longer overlooked and unloved. They see that love is their very nature, and that they can never be separate from the source of all bliss. They realize that they are deeply divine beings.

When 9s awaken to this truth, their life no longer consists of a constant state of unfulfilled numbness. They realize that all of creation is a constant flow of light, love, pleasure, and bliss. They no longer become numb to the pain and struggles of life, but realize that without these uncomfortable growing pains, the joy of existence would have utterly no meaning. 9s begin to truly embrace everything, from the deepest agony of life, to the greatest heights of ecstasy.

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Originally posted by Desdemona

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Originally posted by dfgray44
Re: physical image, think about 7s and plastic surgery -- they're the more likely to do it, of the Head triad, imo....which is a completely different phenomenon from the structural program of what the Image types do internally. But nonetheless is saying something about an inner process (for 7s) related to Image.

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You think?

"People living deeply have no fear of death."
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style

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Originally posted by queen

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Originally posted by Kate

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Originally posted by queen

So again, I compromise when it's pragmatic. It comes easily to me, even if I am not always a fan of it.

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More questions:

How does it feel when you compromise?


initially, it's quite annoying. but, i adapt.


Why do you pick 3 and not 7?



that said, i've been honest and brutal but also deceptive. i've been called a con artist in the past. for some reason, that comment had cut very deep. i still don't know why. i have, sometimes, ended up deceiving myself in the process. my version of charlatanry isn't just for fun. it can be very strategic, sinister =P and goal-oriented.

3s mainly think (semi-consciously) that everyone is 'doing images'...all the time. The fact that the realization of your deceptive nature (to whatever degree it actually is true of you) was somewhat of a revelation to you, says something.



What is it about 7 that turns you off of it being your core type?

I don't have the 7s quick thinking mind. I am also more inwardly sensitive than a 7w8 would be.

I put 7w8s, specifically, on my short list of 'most sensitive' types.

Also, as regards E7 and 'quick mind', sp/sx can have the effect of dragging the mind down into an inner cave/sanctuary for a slow sensual massage. (Especially when there's a central gestalt of pain-avoidance.) Which, obviously, will have a slowing effect. Can mute a significant amount of the outward pop and flash and razmatazz of 7.

Sp/sx also has an element of clandestine/intrigue/whispers-in-a-dark-castle-hall, which might have you spit out a result on a piece of paper at the end of your tongue that says 'E3', when considering yourself.



i am not impulsive, either. mostly, i don't have 7ish qualities besides being grandiose lol, dramatic, charming when i choose. i am very optimistic and ..so filled with child-like wonder (which is probably what gives people close to me..the impression that i am "innocent" on the inside.) But, i think 3s can also be optimistic.


'7w8' is the one and only reason for the existence of the word 'diva'. And you embody and fill-out that spirit in robust fashion. It's not a 3 thing. 3s can only pull a partial diva.

One place to look: you threw in an important word...a non-3 word: dramatic.

'Grandiose', too, has at least a big toe into the area of the unselfconscious BIGNESS of 7w8.

And regarding impulsiveness, remember, there's a reason why R&H call 7w8 the Realist.

'Child-like wonder'. Sorry, that too. A lot of 7 bells rung here.



Does 3 hold more prestige for you and 7 seems not serious enough?


Absolutely NOT.

What could a type label have to do with prestige? I don't think it's more prestigious to be a 3. To be completely honest,I like type 7 more than I like type 3. I can't stand most other 3s because they can seem superficial to me. when i was in school, i had 3 friends who always competed with me and wore this...vulnerable uneasy competitiveness on their sleeve. it was so lame. while i was very competitive and my competitors knew it, i never acted like i was affected by their actions and successes. i made sure to look unaffected..and unreadable. professional.

Sp/sx doubles down. Often competes by being a vacuum of dark, a mystery. It's the 'aloof' strategy.



in short, i love the 7s in my life. i [blocked]in adore them. there isn't a single 3 in my life that i get along with. lol=))

How does respect play into all of the above?

respect has nothing to do with any of it. respect, as i said, is a given. no one/no typing can take away from my sense of respect. respect is me. inseparable from who i am.

^^ I suggest that the above shows the solidity of ego of a pure non-Attachment (3-6-9) type...i.e.- neither base type nor wing is 3, 6 or 9.

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And the sky is made wealthy by my splendid dulcet tones...

Indeed.

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Originally posted by Kate


Des: democrat

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Originally posted by dfgray44


I know we're already past the subject, to a considerable degree, but....

These kinds of posts^ are 'presentational' -- what I think dusty was alluding to with the word 'fluff'. Which is an opposite in relation to the 4s on the board -- there's always a sense of them (4s) speaking from behind something, sticking their heads around a corner for a moment, not showing the rest of their body. Then pulling back and tucking into themselves, churning internally over how much they just revealed. As opposed to the above, which has some characteristic of spreading one's plumage wide for full viewing.

You've got a fair number of these posts that are 'suitable for framing'. There's a Universalist quality to them. Like what you've written ought to be engraved on a gold plaque, and hung in the hallowed halls of The Collective Monument To Human Thinking And Achievement. The sense is of someone who's, mainly, most comfortable 'going macro', in contrast to the more detailed emotional flavors and colors of 'the hyper-personal', a la 4.

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Originally posted by thomg

Thanks EU. What you say reminds me of the stuck-in-the-womb aspect of 9. I think this goes to the 9 vs 4 difference. The 4 is concerned with uniqueness/perfection/defects, terms which can seem similar to, but are of a fundamentally different kind to, the 9's more ontological issues of 'do I deserve to be born/be here?'. The 9 issue is a much more prior ontological riddle.

If you feel inclined, I'd be interested to hear you connect what you've said to your own particular self.

I agree that the 9 issues operate at that kind of epic general level, but I'd like to try to make sense of it by you explaining how that works in you as a particular, individual 9.

A lot of what you wrote I agree with EU:

- the puer aeternus, which I often see as a younger brother thing. I see this even 9's I know in their 60's.
- the idealisation of others is a concomitant of the implicit judging oneself to not deserve to be born; you aren't just flawed, you don't deserve to exist (this is the mirror with the 5w4 gap, whose ultimate cry is - why do I have to be here?).

It's like a defensive manoeuvre. 9's deflect from themselves through idealisation -- wow, this person is so great -- but the silent narcissistic shadow is the identification with that (forced) idealisation. The shadow identification is unconscious or repressed, it is a kind of 'reversing the polarity', a knightmove of the 9's essentially religious imagination, that the 9 doesn't want to admit to, because it is pro-ego in a way that contradicts the anti-ego drive of the idealisation.

This relates somehow to the mereological (parts/whole and how they interrelate) thinking of the 9. The 9 is obsessed with parts/wholes, particulars/universals, and a lot of the 9 issues comes from the subconscious manipulation of those logical categories. They are romantic scholastics.

A 9 will distinguish distinguish distinguish --- that general rule can't be right, because of this particular, which has been overlooked (reality is so much richer than your rules) ... but then the 9's will contradict that with a much more global generalisation, such as that 'all is one'.

Course, this stuff comes up for all types, but the all/nothing thing with 9's ties in with the occlusion/un-bornness of the ego/self ... because when they merge or accept the universal it is such a tidal wave within their thought, that the 9 defence mechanism swamps their ego like a tsunami does a beach hut. If the 9 keeps giving into that tidal force, they're constantly starting from nothing again. The tsunami of unions/universals gives some relief from the existential angst, but only by starting the whole thing again. And not by validating the particular ego but by immersing it in the balm of the cosmic porridge, the nebulous cosmic pantheistic whole. This is hardly a grounded or human-scale validation of their ego. In this way, one can see 4-like aspects of issues with identity and angst, the perpetual 'starting from scratch' and the creative destruction aspect of it.

The 4 has a strong sense of their particularity (their quarrel is with the nature of that particularity, not its status as a particular) ... as a result, the 4 can see the general in the particular in its visionary return to its holy idea of origin ... like Blake, the 4 can see the world in a grain of sand ... these moments of inspiration are 'healthy' in a fixation sense.

But for a 9, these kind of inspired moments, these Wordworthian 'spots of time', of access to universals which implicitly dissolve the validity all particulars -- including the 9 ego --
are actually counterproductive for 9's.

9's don't need that dissolution, they need to love themselves as one of the many particulars, meriting separate existence and individuation free of the gooey ecstatic bubble. It's like a theodicy of self ... 9s have to justify themselves qua individual, rather than justifying all individuals, of which they happen to be one, through universals.

Cum grano salis.

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Originally posted by thomg

5w4... whose ultimate cry is - why do I have to be here?

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Originally posted by queen

dfgray

thanks=)
I will think about everything you said, in depth.

Could you tell me why you consider 7w8 a sensitive type?

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Originally posted by dusty



Do you have any idea what the 4w5 ultimate cry is?

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Originally posted by dfgray44

Those are good. My favorite for the 4w5/5w4 combo platter is... Everyone/everything is broken.

Which is simply divine, I think. I mean really divine. :)

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Originally posted by Desdemona

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Originally posted by Kate


Des: democrat

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Actually, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an Independent. I used to say I was an Independent leaning towards Libertarian, but I'm not so sure that's true, overall. I'm just an Independent.




"People living deeply have no fear of death."
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style

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Cornel Ronald West offers this fun definition...*

"To be a democrat is to say, as that genius...Sly Stone put it, 'Everyday People', have a depth, a geniality, a bigness of heart, mind and soul that has potential and could be actualized if their voices are heard at the highest levels of the decision-making processes in those institutions that guide and regulate their lives.

It's no accident that the Negro National Anthem is Lift Every...Voice...

Every voice.

It's no accident that the greatest democratic art form to come out of not only [the USA] but any other country in the world, which is jazz, is all about finding your...voice.

That Janie Crawford in Their eyes Were Watching God is trying to find her...voice.

That John Coltrane couldn't imitate Johnny Hodges for too long because he had to find his...voice.

It's all about finding your voice and when you find your voice you have a courage to not just speak, but to reflect upon what you're speaking about and to be willing to live and die for what you are highlighting in your speech...that focuses on the plight of 'Everyday People.'

Because 'Everybody's a star,' Sly says. Or as Muhammad Ali put it, 'Ain't nobody like me, ain't nobody gonna be like me.' That's democratic individuality, that's not bourgeios individualism.

Each one of us unique, distinctive, irreducible, no one like us, everyone unusual, and there's an extraordinariness in ordinary folk, there's 'a miraculous in the quotidian,' as Ralph Waldo Ellison [sic] put it.

That's a democratic sensibility. And if you don't believe it then you don't believe, really, in democracy, it's just a little fig leaf to hide and conceal your oligarchic economy and your white supremacist and male supremacist and homophobic practices. You're not really a democrat, small 'd.' You can't understand the workers movement...how could you be a democrat?

...What a challenge! Now it could be the case that American civilization really doesn't have the capacity to be a full-fledged democracy. That's a real possibility. The greatest text ever written on this civilization, by Alexis DeTocqueville, 1835 and 1840, volumes I and II, where he came here and said 'This is a fascinating place, with alot of democratic sensibilities, but there's something here that 's deeply American but not democratic at all.' That last chapter, the biggest chapter in the text, the end of the first volume. He says 'This place does not have the capacity to be a multi-racial democracy; they might not even have the capacity to be a classless democracy. It's a capitalist democracy with white privledge. And they might include some exceptional black, and brown, and yellow, and red folk...'


source: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-197581.html

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Originally posted by dfgray44

Those are good. My favorite for the 4w5/5w4 combo platter is... Everyone/everything is broken.

Which is simply divine, I think. I mean really divine. :)

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Originally posted by Desdemona

I don't think what I'm doing in "Annoyance Response" is ninish at all. That's not a ninish way of resisting.

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Originally posted by Desdemona
It's just stating my point, repeatedly.

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Originally posted by Desdemona
And why should I not resist you, if I disagree?

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Originally posted by Desdemona
It seems odd to me that the fact you're unable to convince someone of your view should indicate ninishness to you. In my experience, 9's in such a situation tend to either go along with what others are saying just to avoid making waves, or they elect to just shut up and disappear, because they don't want to deal with the conflict. Any 9 on the board please feel free to correct me if this is not your m.o. Gray, there's your cue.

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