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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 04:41:26 AM
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I asked Orpheus this question in the other thread, but it's really important to me and I wanted to ask everyone:
How do you as a 4, 4s that you know, or 4s in theory overcome the feeling that something's wrong with you, and actually get siht done? How do you work with this so it stops ruling you and limiting your life?
It feels to me like an actual feeling of deficiency in the body, not necessarily just an image of being flawed one likes to think of oneself as. |
Edited by - eidbuser on 07 Apr 2012 04:53:11 AM |
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.ron4
Member
11625 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 05:06:54 AM
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No type is stopped from getting something done at average levels.
While being in search of an identity he bases his on being different,
not like mom, not like dad, not like anyone. Unique , original, better.
In this process he gets lost and begins to envy others who have
what he thinks is ....normal....then he begins to feel inadequate ,
flawed. A manifestation or result of fear of being like everyone
else because he sees inadequacies of others early on.
Ron
"If you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change". |
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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 07:07:26 AM
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I feel it the way you describe it. It's a diffuse shame in the body, mainly in the chest zone. If this feeling was less diffuse, I guess tears would fall easily. That's how I feel the deficient/rejected/"who am I ?" things.
The first thing is a sort of opening one-self to others. In 4w5s, there is sort a "wall" brought by the 5-wing, a mental veil that fuels the alienation process. It's good to talk about it to someone you trust, and let the tears fall. What you know won't disappear, but it will become less a tool your ego uses for alienation and not exposing this feeling of deficiency.
The second thing is accomplishment. There will be a growing self-assurance that will come from your abilities to deal with life. The easiest for the 4 is to deal with what is difficult and what only them can achieve. It's somehow harder for 4s to pay attention to the mundane and simple needs of self of others. But that's where the "4-redemption" is the most efficient. The feeling of deficiency will be more efficiently overcome when it's no longer problem to get out and buy some food, relate with people, have a good time in a park with a friend, than when you write a novel and win a nobel price (I'm kidding just to explain).
The third thing is self-nurturing. Being kind with self, including any kind of action designed to improve your life and well-being. It can be for other people around you as well. This has much to do with 1-integration. It's also great, but very difficult, to create a sort of discipline that avoids falling in the lethargy of moods over and over again. For example, I practice singing and piano one hour a day, spend time for administration one hour a day (actually I try to, this one is harder for me).
By doing so, you will feel shame starts to disappear even if you don't pay attention to it. It will be replaced to a feeling of light and openness to life.
It's important to keep the 4 qualities as well like self-awareness, and keeping an eye on feelings, introspection, trying to understand and be yourself. But beware if introspection turns to moody paralysis. That's a usual trap.
What is fundamental in what R&H says about type 4 is for me:
"Self-assurance will only come from positive experiences"
Also Orpheus' reply to you, on the other thread was great. I agreed with everything he said. There was a few things I needed to read in that for myself.
When you start fighting your ego, there can be an immediate reaction of it fighting you. Also the steps towards taking action and ignoring the moods will make the moods stronger. Much of the feeling of deficiency and all the mental noise it needs to create to justify itself, might come to you in a more violent way. Some waves are very violent. But deep inside, 4s are not afraid with intensity. This is a quality to use.
Note : I used "deficiency" instead of "inadequacy", but that's roughly the same. What is the marker of type 4 are the feelings around it. Actually "inadequacy" is probably a better word. |
Edited by - skyboy on 07 Apr 2012 07:56:51 AM |
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enneathing
Member
4622 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 07:58:30 AM
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| imo, 'defect/defectiveness' is better to describe the way 4s feel about themselves, rather than either inadequacy or deficiency. |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 12:03:38 PM
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"The third thing is self-nurturing. Being kind with self, including any kind of action designed to improve your life and well-being."
THIS. you know how you can go ahead and decide that you can do whatever you want because you deserve it? and get all self indulgency? well it's kinda crap and you are actually hurting yourself because you feel even worse about yourself down the road.
what i did is put things that were good for me in the context of self love/care. yes maybe your feelings want you to do something else other than go to work everyday. but you feel like you wanna kill yourself if you lay around staring into your bellybutton all day like you wanna. or you feel like you wanna die if you have to speak with a stranger but then you hate yourself becuase you have no ability to talk to people.
and you feel better being out in the world and having a life. even though it kinda sucks too. but you do feel better about yourself so be self loving.
i also stopped telling myself i needed to be fixed or that there was something wrong with me. i don;t remember the exact way this occured but i feel it had to do with the same thing. instead of wanting to fix it, i decided that i should try and use it in good ways. whatever it is- you are in control of you- your emotions, tendencies etc not the other way around. but you have to live with them so marshall them to your benefit. things you may have been frustrated about or hated about yourself can actually be things that you love about yourself if you learn to use them correctly.
accomplishment is really good. life forced me to start doing some of that and alot of things fell away. having to provide for myself (stupid life *angry fist shaking*) was the impetus for me.
don't set your sights too high all at once because you're setting yourself up to a trap. be happy with little steps. be forgiving when you fall because you will fall alot. and when you fall you will be tempted to think it's validation for your inadequacy or all the terrible things you think is wrong with you and your miserable destiny. it isn't. EVERYBODY DOES IT. it's the only way to get anywhere.
so whats one thing you can do in your life that would be an improvement? a job? a new friend? showering regularly? (yes that was actually a big step for me at one point) whatever it is. the more you do a thing the more you can understand it and yourself through experience. and it's never done so you will always be discovering.
you can ride out your feelings. "yes i know you are there feeling, i'm listening but we have to do this so come on now." it feels completely unbearable- there is no way i can do this! give yourself a time frame. okay if i still feel like this in 6 months then i will allow myself to quit. that's what i told myself when i first got into my truck. i'd built up alot to that point- years of self work- but still when i got in that truck- forget about it. i was a freaking newborn again. i told myself 6 months. and the feelings faded- to bearable and a new feeling started. very very slowly. eventually to confidence. pride. not quite at mastery but hopefully eventually.
give yourself time to get comfortable. it will take time. try not to murder yourself by trying to rush forward or self punish because you are not ready yet(i still have issues with these)
-beeotchy for fun and profit-
current lololo8 status:
do you like my eyebrows? they are very grieco. |
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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 1:07:48 PM
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Defectiveness, inadequacy, deficiency. It's all just nitpicking and fine-tuning, but the internal sense of it is: "There's something wrong with me, I can't do it" (what other people can do).
As I was waking up from a dream this morning, I had the feeling that actually self-reflection is part of the root of the whole problem. When I start looking inside myself, all I see are the things that are missing. But when my attention it completely turned towards the external world, I forget about myself and the internal emptiness that I feel and identify with.
I feel like connecting to 1 has a lot with turning my gaze externally instead of internally. I already look too deeply inside and don't really need to 'work' on that skill, self-awareness comes naturally. I actually have trouble keeping my attention focused on anything other than myself, especially when that means mundane or practical things. Being trapped in the 'Inner World' and not really seeing and landing in the 'External World.'
It's as though what I need to develop is not self-awareness, but "world-awareness."
In a certain way I imagine integration to 1 as turning the gaze outward into the world and seeing the perfection of the world, instead of turning the gaze inward and looking inside at point 4 and seeing the gaping abyss inside.
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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 1:56:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser
Defectiveness, inadequacy, deficiency. It's all just nitpicking and fine-tuning, but the internal sense of it is: "There's something wrong with me, I can't do it" (what other people can do).
Yes, exactly.
1 integration has also a lot to do with action. Type 1 is a doer. Straightforward, clear, and a bit of structure. And being simpler, including emotionally.
For example, if you feel difficulties to relate, self-consciousness and moods blocking the path between you and other people, a good 1ish decision : today I WILL relate no matter what my moods are about... this can be seen as a 1 decision. Not being influenced by what you feel. You won't loose the connection to what you feel anyway. In relating, with both people and practical things, the feelings will become kind of more "meaningful". Less related to alienating endless loops. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 2:01:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lovemyth
i also stopped telling myself i needed to be fixed or that there was something wrong with me. i don;t remember the exact way this occured but i feel it had to do with the same thing. instead of wanting to fix it, i decided that i should try and use it in good ways. whatever it is- you are in control of you- your emotions, tendencies etc not the other way around. but you have to live with them so marshall them to your benefit. things you may have been frustrated about or hated about yourself can actually be things that you love about yourself if you learn to use them correctly.
So true. I like the way you put it.
80% of type 4 inner critic is crap and only self-hatred for nothing. And maybe the potentially meaningful/useful things that could help us move forward are lost in this sea of self-defeating crap. |
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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 6:30:51 PM
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I have the feeling now that the feeling/belief that something is wrong with you actually is a delusion. I think because of that delusion of imperfection or being flawed we look for all sorts of reasons as to why we're flawed.
Even though we have all kinds of thoughts, images, feelings about why we're defective, when you get underneath all that it's just a vague sense of lacking something. But I think that lack itself is more of a delusion than an intrinsic reality about who you are.
The fall from 1, the fall from perfection into imperfection, is itself based on illusion.
We can never fix ourselves or become an ideal because what we've become blind to is the perfection within.
The Fall that we think took place never truly happened. It was just that the world threw dirt in our eyes. The world told us that something was wrong with us, and we believed it.
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Narc
Member
1205 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 7:55:39 PM
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quote:
In a certain way I imagine integration to 1 as turning the gaze outward into the world and seeing the perfection of the world, instead of turning the gaze inward and looking inside at point 4 and seeing the gaping abyss inside.
I would imagine that, for a 4, gazing outward and seeing the perfection of the world is the fuel for the envy they experience. The beauty and perfection around them is compared against the gaping abyss they feel inside.
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dusty
Member
2897 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:00:44 PM
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| I would point out that this isn't the question you need to be asking yourself, eidbuser, but I don't think it would do any good. So I won't. |
Edited by - dusty on 07 Apr 2012 8:02:31 PM |
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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:06:12 PM
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| I guess being passive aggressive is what you'll resort to then |
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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:11:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Narc
quote:
In a certain way I imagine integration to 1 as turning the gaze outward into the world and seeing the perfection of the world, instead of turning the gaze inward and looking inside at point 4 and seeing the gaping abyss inside.
I would imagine that, for a 4, gazing outward and seeing the perfection of the world is the fuel for the envy they experience. The beauty and perfection around them is compared against the gaping abyss they feel inside.
I mean all of existence including oneself. Not a particular perfection but a universal one. In my mind the sense of universality is the antidote to feeling fundamentally isolated and alienated. |
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dusty
Member
2897 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:14:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser
I guess being passive aggressive is what you'll resort to then
Always a good back-up plan.  |
Edited by - dusty on 07 Apr 2012 8:15:41 PM |
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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:21:37 PM
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The practice just occurred to me of login the very things that I hate so much. The world, people, all my fear, insecurity and deficiency. To love all the pain and negativity and suffering that I experience. Instead of splitting my heart off. Instead of splitting my love off from my hatred. All my hatred for my parents.
I hate so much because I love so much. Because my heart is so broken open that it can feel all the sorrow of existence. I can love all of this grief. I can hold it all. |
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eidbuser
Member
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:38:14 PM
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I realize now that I've purposely unconsciously sabotaged myself again. I had the potential to be happy, to get a job and start living a normal life. It was just within possibility.
Somehow all my old fears and inadequacies started coming back again. My confidence deflated. Again I sabotage my chances of living a normal, happy, simple life. Just like I ruined all my relationships.
I unconsciously want to perpetuate my misery. I know nothing else. I don't want to know anything else. I'm afraid of happiness. Misery is familiarity.
To finally be happy would be the end of my ego game. I avoid happiness. I avoid simplicity and normality. Dwelling in my suffering gives me my usual sense of self, devoted to longing for the lost love.
To give up the pain and longing would require a complete annihilation of my self. To regain the lost love would be to die to existence, once and for all.
My beloved annihilates me. To achieve love there can no longer be two. I must die, I must vanquish, I must drown in the source of love itself.
My beloved. Once and for all.
The disappearance is the completion.
No more striving. No more suffering.
All is known in this presence. All is known in this simplicity.
The shining void.
I disappear. |
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Narc
Member
1205 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 8:49:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser
quote:
Originally posted by Narc
quote:
In a certain way I imagine integration to 1 as turning the gaze outward into the world and seeing the perfection of the world, instead of turning the gaze inward and looking inside at point 4 and seeing the gaping abyss inside.
I would imagine that, for a 4, gazing outward and seeing the perfection of the world is the fuel for the envy they experience. The beauty and perfection around them is compared against the gaping abyss they feel inside.
I mean all of existence including oneself. Not a particular perfection but a universal one. In my mind the sense of universality is the antidote to feeling fundamentally isolated and alienated.
Yes. The 4 doesn't see the goodness and perfection in themselves. In contrast, the 1 thinks they are all good and perfect but sees only imperfection, chaos and disorder in the world around them.
Both 1 and 4 fail to see universal perfection (inside and out) because the personality has to split "perfection" into two parts: positive vs negative / inside vs outside = duality.
From the perspective of the personality, perfection only exists in relation to its corresponding negative counterpart. Thus, depending upon which end of this object relation you are identified with, goodness and perfection is either inside or outside oneself. Type 3 is another type which, like 1's, identifies with the positive end of this object relation.
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Edited by - Narc on 07 Apr 2012 8:56:30 PM |
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jevoudrais
Member
1698 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 9:23:42 PM
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| Narc, you're one of the smart ones on these boards. |
Edited by - jevoudrais on 07 Apr 2012 9:24:11 PM |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 02:51:00 AM
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Surround yourself with positive people.
Try not to be in competition with others.
Learn to accept yourself.
Don't let other people's opinion determine who you are.
Realize that overcompensation does nothing good. |
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.ron4
Member
11625 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 03:12:21 AM
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I haven't heard what the feeling inadequate has to
do with what EU is trying to do he can't.
What are you feeling inadequate about ? EU.
"If you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change". |
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enneathing
Member
4622 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 04:12:42 AM
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quote:
In contrast, the 1 thinks they are all good and perfect but sees only imperfection, chaos and disorder in the world around them.
The 1 does see imperfection in themselves. But they deny it.... criticizing and reprimanding others instead.
1s are very hard on themselves. More than 4s, I'd say. |
Edited by - enneathing on 08 Apr 2012 04:13:19 AM |
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Narc
Member
1205 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 05:42:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
Surround yourself with positive people.
Yes, I'd stay away from those horrible negative people if I were you! They're good for nothing.
Try not to be in competition with others.
Sure, competition is a disgusting habit. I would never engage in such a thing.
Learn to accept yourself.
Of course. I wouldn't want to be one of those competitive negative people who overcompensates. Eww!
Don't let other people's opinion determine who you are.
I tend to deny honest feedback from others. Especially if I disagree with them or if it upsets me and threatens to puncture my self-delusions.
Realize that overcompensation does nothing good.
Yes, those sad people who have to overcompensate! I pity them.
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enneathing
Member
4622 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 05:46:28 AM
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noname
Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 01:10:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser
I asked Orpheus this question in the other thread, but it's really important to me and I wanted to ask everyone:
How do you as a 4, 4s that you know, or 4s in theory overcome the feeling that something's wrong with you, and actually get siht done? How do you work with this so it stops ruling you and limiting your life?
It feels to me like an actual feeling of deficiency in the body, not necessarily just an image of being flawed one likes to think of oneself as.
I shift my focus onto what's wrong and unjust in world (going to type 1). It actually really takes my mind off of myself and my personality, especially since I can figure out so many things which are morally wrong.
4w5 infp |
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Orpheus
Member
Romania
3999 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 01:25:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser
I asked Orpheus this question in the other thread, but it's really important to me and I wanted to ask everyone:
How do you as a 4, 4s that you know, or 4s in theory overcome the feeling that something's wrong with you, and actually get siht done? How do you work with this so it stops ruling you and limiting your life?
It feels to me like an actual feeling of deficiency in the body, not necessarily just an image of being flawed one likes to think of oneself as.
No waiting around to overcome anything and just DO something. Overcoming only happens after action, no healing will happen without effort and doing.
quote:
Originally posted by noname
I shift my focus onto what's wrong and unjust in world (going to type 1). It actually really takes my mind off of myself and my personality, especially since I can figure out so many things which are morally wrong.
That's not really doing anything to alleviate fixation. And morality is arbitrary.
________________________________
The agony of lovers
burns with the fire of passion.
Lovers leave traces of where they've been.
The wailing of broken hearts
is the doorway to God.
King Night
Mutima kwithu kuli nkongono, para kakuwira comene
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noname
Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 01:40:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
quote:
Originally posted by noname
I shift my focus onto what's wrong and unjust in world (going to type 1). It actually really takes my mind off of myself and my personality, especially since I can figure out so many things which are morally wrong.
That's not really doing anything to alleviate fixation.
________________________________
The agony of lovers
burns with the fire of passion.
Lovers leave traces of where they've been.
The wailing of broken hearts
is the doorway to God.
King Night
Mutima kwithu kuli nkongono, para kakuwira comene
How so?
4w5 infp |
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Topic |
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How to overcome the sense of inadequacy for 4s?
