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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 06:52:19 AM
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A 6 pattern according to most authors. I guess the word "projection" could be used for anybody with different meanings. But what does it mean exactly about type 6 ?
Do you have definitions or personal ideas about it ? |
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5836 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 07:16:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
A 6 pattern according to most authors. I guess the word "projection" could be used for anybody with different meanings. But what does it mean exactly about type 6 ?
Do you have definitions or personal ideas about it ?
yeah everybody is projecting.
projection as the main defense mechanism based on unfounded apprehension, worriedness, negativism, doubts, worst case szenario etc are the stereotypical kinds of sixish projection , i propose.
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Edited by - Glasgow on 24 Apr 2012 08:58:09 AM |
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whitelila
Member
5120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 09:16:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
A 6 pattern according to most authors. I guess the word "projection" could be used for anybody with different meanings. But what does it mean exactly about type 6 ?
Do you have definitions or personal ideas about it ?
with 6's it is about their ambivalence, it is a state of having simultaneous, conflicting feelings toward a person or thing.
They might start thinking you are mad at them, when in truth, they feel angry at you for some reason. They might not even be aware of the anger they feel for you.. because they have turned it in their minds about how you are the one acting weird, then they play the victim, while accusing you of a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with the real reason why they feel angry.
It almost always boils down to rejection. when a 6 is lashing out, you can be sure at some point you made them feel rejected or small. Often it was never meant as a slight by the other person. 6's often look for reasons to feel rejected. they are vigilant. It is a pretty serious issue for social first 6's with a 4 fix.
Many types do it. I guess 6's and people with a 6/4 fix do it more often? |
Edited by - whitelila on 24 Apr 2012 09:22:41 AM |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 09:18:16 AM
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umm sometimes when my bf gets insecure about our relationship he checks in with me to see if his insecurity is coming from a actual place outside himself.
relatedly when he gets upset sometimes he loses his check on that and his feelings/reactions make up things that happened- weather he saw them happen in the moment- when he had the feeling or reaction- or is sorta rationalizing directly almost intandem afterward im not sure.
(like this lila said:
They might start thinking you are mad at them, when in truth, they feel angry at you for some reason.)
fears become very real- and because he's imaginative- he gets a fear (late at night alone closing up the store in his after school while in college) and places it outside himself and suddenly he swears there are hoards of zombies waiting in the dark. and it's very real.
very permeable boundary between real and imagination. he almost/pretty much philosophically doesn't recognize it.
worst case scenario story:
we've been planning on moving for a long time and i want a house. no condo, no 2bdrm apt, no split family style, no a house. i'm done and do not want to think about housing and moving and i'm gonna get a freaking house and be done with it (yes it's also likely that my first house will not be my last but that is my plan- i hope to beat odds)
anyway me i overstimate all my costs becuase i would rather have more than enough set aside then come up short. so i calculated the furnishing costs and he laughed at me thinking i'm crazy to put aside that much.
then way months later gets antsy. and now he brings it up to me that maybe we should just get an apt because he's afraid we won;t be able to afford to furnish a house. i think he's afraid of committing to a home and even in part me, which he has issue with intermittently- though that's all internal doubting stuffs. also he's freaking over his work too so thats making him feel poor and like he's never gonna be able to support himself.
but now all of a sudden my overestimation is laughably small. it's gonna be a million dollars!
their feelings change the way they see things and instead of seeing it as inside themselves-as being afraid- they see something to be afraid of.
( i told him we can buy an apt sized amount of furniture and work up to full finished furnished over time if there is an issue and he mostly seemed to not freak anymore. unless he's just clammed up about it)
that's a particularly sixish flavor i think. probs more
-beeotchy for fun and profit-
current lololo8 status:
do you like my eyebrows? they are very grieco. |
Edited by - lovemyth on 24 Apr 2012 09:30:30 AM |
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skunk
Member
5205 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 11:03:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Do you have definitions or personal ideas about it ?
The subconscious projection of unwanted impulses and characteristics within one's psyche upon an other, who then becomes a target for hostility. An attendant defence mechanism is idealisation: the projection of desired qualities (perhaps out of an exaggerated sense of the lack of these within one's character) onto an other who is then placed upon a pedestal that is an imagined construct within the projector's mind.
(Hitler was riddled with both, and it drove him.)
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Do you have definitions or personal ideas about it ?
...that it is rooted in a sense of inadequacy, characterological and moral, that arises from Attachment (in an O.R. sense), namely a desire for approval and acceptance by specific others? The projecting/idealising dichotomy can be thought of as Splitting, and is one form of the general tendency towards cognitive extremes (black and white thinking) which is an attempt to alleviate anxiety by the reduction of ambiguity. Hitler did both.
Melanie Klein's ideas were interesting. From what I remember, and in grossly simplified form, I think she speculated that in some children this move towards the parent takes place at a time just as, or before, the ego defences are forming and so the child's sense of their deeper self is particularly raw and vulnerable to rejection, hence a child can develop with a heightened sensitivity to personal slights that can sometimes take on an obsessive hue. I think. But I'm sure her theory was a lot more complicated so enough blethering from me. |
Edited by - skunk on 24 Apr 2012 11:26:37 AM |
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dnimon
Member
Australia
5985 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 11:40:00 AM
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No, i liked it and i think its pretty close, the point i would make here is that the tendency is quite divorced from the knowledge, understanding or lack thereof of the triggering mechanism or contextual milieu; its more a fundamental identification with the re-feeling of the initial wound/s, like picking at a scab, or scratching tinea
If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you.
- Billy Wilder
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 3:50:57 PM
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| Projection is when you accuse or assume that somebody else has the same insecurities as you. It's like you feel fat, so you think that somebody else also feels the same way. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 4:53:49 PM
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Thanks for all your answers. They all make sense.
Whitelila, I agree with this being amplified by a 4 fix. Core 4s with a 6-fix are roughly the same. I've know at least one guy like this (SO as well). Introjection and projection work together creating a lot of emotional instability and insecurity.
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
Projection is when you accuse or assume that somebody else has the same insecurities as you.
Supposing someone has the same insecurities as you is usual projection : supposing somebody is like self. Everyone does it more or less. Ex :
- E1 may project his own need for perfection, supposing everyone wants to act according to the best possible standards (morally for example).
- E5 believes everyone will process thoughts in a separate self naturally, until they come to a conclusion
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The E is a good way to discover it's not so true.
If I try to sum up what has been said, type 6 projection is something else. It's projecting insecurities, doubts, second guessing in external reality, as if they were real. It can be projected on someone, and this can be supposing the person has negative intentions towards self for example. It's not supposing the other person has doubts, which would be standard projection.
In you example, I think 6 projection would be :
If you feel fat, then you think other people think that you're fat (with underlying negative meaning, a sense of possible reproach, rejection, accusation, threat...) |
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Sinking
Member
USA
397 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 8:38:42 PM
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6s have problems thinking everyone else is the same as them, in my experience. It really bothers me.
Probably makes the enneagram help them, because they realize people are very different.
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All at once I knew I was not magnificent. |
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.ron4
Member
11625 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 8:48:08 PM
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I don't like funerals.
the end
ron
"If you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change". |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:23:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by .ron4
I don't like funerals.
I thought fours were supposed to be "attracted" to intense feelings like death. Not to say you shouldn't dislike funerals. |
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Kate
Member
5931 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 8:05:38 PM
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skyboy,
I'm currently reading Nine Lenses on the World: the Enneagram Perspective by Jerome Peter Wagner.
His breakdown of how each type projects:
quote:
Projections and Projective Identifications
If you want to avoid certain parts of yourself, you can repress them into your unconscious and bury them alive. If you want to distance yourself even farther from these unacceptable elements, you can throw them ou of your basement and put them in the garbage. The nearest receptacles are usually other people. This is the art of projection.
If that doesn't seem enough and the projected qualities still seem upsetting and disturbing to you, you can augment your was management procedure by processing your garbage after you've thrown it out. That means you deposit your disorders in others then either encourage them to deal with their alleged detritus, or wage a campaign to clean them up yourself. This is the technique of projectiveidentification.
From the Enneagram perspective, there are nine projective maneuvers to deal with nine avoided domains.
Projections of the One: Since ONES avoid their own anger and imperfection, they project their anger and faults onto others. We are then experienced as being angry towards and critical of them.
And we and the world are experienced as being messy and flawed and imperfect and it is up to the ONES to clean us up, straighten us out, shape us up, and get us back on the road to perfection.
Projections of the Two: Since TWOS avoide their own needs, they project their needs onto others. We are then experienced as requiring help and it is the TWOS' job to detect and empathize with our needs and minister to us, thereby making themselves indispensable.
Projections of the Threes: Since THREES avoid failure and inefficiency, these unacceptable features are projected onto others and we and the world are experienced as being the cause of any failures, the source of inefficiency and ineptness, in danger of immanent entropy, and in need of consultations and assistance from the THREE efficiency experts. It it's ever going to get done, it's up to the THREES to do it.
Projections of the Four: Since FOURS avoid being ordinary, commonness is projected onto others and we are experienced as being plain, uncouth, uncultured, rude, crude and unrefined. FOURS are readily misunderstood. Therefore it is up to the FOURS to restore refinement, class, and sensibility to our Philistine culture.
Projections of the Five: Since FIVES avoid looking foolish, they project their ignorance onto others and experience themselves surrounded by a confederacy of dunces. Others are considered to be idiots, fools, shallow-minded, contemptible. FIVES have the option of avoiding others entirely and withdrawing from the field, or of researching and discovering truth and enlightening others about it.
Projections of the Six: Since SIXES avoid deviancy, they project their rebelliousness onto others and we are the ones who are lawless, threatening, and trying to get away with things. The world is experienced as a dangerous place and it is up to the the SIXES to bring law and order, safety and security back into the world. Counter-fearful SIXES project their ambivalence onto others, especially authority figures, and experience them as being inconsistent and untrustworthy. So they need to chide or condition them into being consistent and fair.
Projections of the Seven: Since SEVENS avoid pain and suffering, they project these elements onto others and we are experienced as being gloomy, party-poopers, depressed, unimaginative, balloon-popping, rain-on-paraders. It is up to the SEVENS to cheer us up, give us something to laugh about, help us see the good in things, and envision an optimistic future for the world.
Projections of the Eight: Since EIGHTS avoid weaness, they project any variation of weakness onto others and we are experienced as being naive, dependent, whimpy, sentimental, namby-pamby, indecisive 98 pound weaklings. Is the task of the EIGHT to right any injustices, protect us, toughen us up, give us a dose of reality, or more sinisterly, intimidate us and take advantage of us suckers who are born every minute.
Projections of the Nine: Since NINES avoid conflict, they project their unsettledness onto others and we are experienced as being conflicted, troubled, and in turmoil. It is up to the NINES to calm us down, pacify us, reconcile us, and lower our level of expectation and excitement.
[author's bold and italics]
"Get your non-believer *** outta my chair!" Joey Tribbiani |
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sunny
Member
USA
9393 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 10:01:53 PM
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Yep. There's a bunch of mean weirdo failures out there. They are just uncouth, boring, depressing and stupid and most of all they are wrong...and they need to calm down!!
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EMike583
Member
USA
1466 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 11:13:34 PM
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| I would be a One, a Five, or a Six based on that list of projections. |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 07:12:05 AM
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something interesting to do is watch how someone criticizes someone/ something else.
the thing they disdain, despise, and criticize gives you hints on what they do not want to be and can lead you to a hint on their type.
sometimes it is not incredibly blatant and you may have to read into it.
i liked the projections lists.
an example that works in to this- and something someone else noted- was one time i was going off on something- and my main criticisms were unoriginal, regurgitation, issues are old hat and it's already been said better before.
someone picked it up and said as much while thinking i didn't over hear it.
anyhow. it works the same when you ask someone what is the wrongs of the world. however they view the world will tell you what they value and avoid. what if given a chance would exterminate from the earth. these things can be telling- if not of the e that at least of the persons being.
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"If you’re going through hell, keep going" |
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emerald
Member
694 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 10:34:30 AM
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I'm ordering Wagner's Nine Lenses on the World, mentioned by Kate. The guy sounds insightful (his definition of projection!) and truly funny.
1w9
ISFJ |
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Galen
Member
USA
260 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 12:45:05 AM
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Great post Kate, lot of good stuff there.
As a 6, my projections take form as other people trying to bring me down, as if they're deliberately out to chastise me for [blocked]ing up or sabotage my happiness. I've had times where I'd react viscerally to people because I thought they'd be mad with me for something wrong I did. This isn't necessarily a matter of conforming for me, as much as it is just my own sense of personal responsibility taking over. It's as if some part of me fears that if I screw it up, I'll no longer be seen as trustworthy, a trait I value very highly in myself as well as others.
This I guess is where the fixation vs counterfixation traits kick in, where one can either accept the role that they project onto themselves or attempt to break free of it. For 6s this means either being compliant in order to avoid perceiving others as upset with them, or by lashing out against those he/she projects the anger upon.
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And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl |
Edited by - Galen on 23 May 2012 12:53:40 AM |
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emerald
Member
694 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 10:57:40 PM
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I downloaded the free trial pages of Wagner's Nine Lenses which took me to the end of chapter one. So far I have found it rather dry writing. But I see it is a long book (568 pages). Kate, is most of the rest of it better, such as the interesting projection quote you posted above? It almost seems like the beginning of the book and the posted quote were written by two different people.
1w9 - sp
ISFJ |
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Kate
Member
5931 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 11:21:24 PM
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Hi emerald,
I haven't read it all yet. I find that he integrates a few different modalities. He talks of schemas and paradigms of each type. I got into another book, I'd been waiting for, for a while and had other things on the go, so I haven't gotten back to it, since I started it. I have too many books on the go at the moment and needed to pare down an focus. I'm not sure what your definition of dry is. It can vary for different folk. For me, I liked the way he presented things in a viewpoint way. The lens of the world has a particular resonance for me. Maybe because I'm an sp first?
I bought the book on Kindle cloud reader so I can read it on my hand held. If you want, I can copy some of the E1 part or send you another chapter, so you can read more...see if you like it.
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Edited by - Kate on 23 May 2012 11:22:11 PM |
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emerald
Member
694 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 11:47:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kate
Hi emerald,
I haven't read it all yet. I find that he integrates a few different modalities. He talks of schemas and paradigms of each type. I got into another book, I'd been waiting for, for a while and had other things on the go, so I haven't gotten back to it, since I started it. I have too many books on the go at the moment and needed to pare down an focus. I'm not sure what your definition of dry is. It can vary for different folk. For me, I liked the way he presented things in a viewpoint way. The lens of the world has a particular resonance for me. Maybe because I'm an sp first?
I bought the book on Kindle cloud reader so I can read it on my hand held. If you want, I can copy some of the E1 part or send you another chapter, so you can read more...see if you like it.
Kate, thanks. By "dry" I meant the language of the introductory chapters was not as breezy, rich and humorous as the section you posted. I have since read a number of your posts and because I am enjoying the way you think and process information, I'm just going to go with your recommendation. I am married to a 7w8 so your way of processing is familiar.  No need to send more but I very much appreciate the offer. I'll keep you posted.
1w9 - sp
ISFJ |
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Kate
Member
5931 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 12:25:58 AM
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emerald,
Okay.
Yeah, the rest isn't as breezy as the part I quoted. But, it's still what I find an easy read. For me dry is getting bogged down in tediousness, which I don't find he does. He's straightforward and clear. And I'm happy to hear of your relationship. There is hope for me yet! (kidding - I'm a female 7. contrary to some press, we're not easy to live with)
Is that a yes, Des?
*waits for confirmation*
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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 5:10:54 PM
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Great kate (there's a rhyme)
I agree with all of them, mainly 4, 7, 2 and 6 (i'm focussed on these types for a few days)
I'm also reading jung and his great chapter about shadows. Like everytime you go left, right becomes your shadow... Makes me think a lot about the few times i felt my own shadow when talking to you ... For example.
There is an n instead of k at 8's weakness. It was my duty to restore this untolerable chaotic mistake :-).. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1288 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 7:32:19 PM
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I've been thinking about it a little more.
I believe in what lovemyth says totally, and also about the shadow thing.
And how it is described for all types. But not projection, as working the same as in type 6.
People are allergetic to their shadow, specializing in fighting this shadow in the world. Ok. For example lack of sensitivety or 'ordinary' usual people for type 4. It does not mean that 4s imagine their shadow where it is not. Another example could be type 1. They might look for any mistake you do and feel very uncomfortable with it. Dislike people who are not self-controlled... It doesn't mean they see mistakes or little self-control where there are none.
What is specific to type 6 imo, is imagination being oriented towards the worst case scenario because of fear. When they meet an internal shadow, there is a fear that this could be real, a threat from the outside or something hidden even if there is nothing. They might project deviance (that can be inedequacy to some requirement from the environment for exanple) but not only. It can be anything that is being feared.
They don't only fight their shadow in the world like other types. They fight shadows that are not here. |
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Kate
Member
5931 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 10:16:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Great kate (there's a rhyme)
A good friend of mine once told me about a song called "Kate is Great" It made me 
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
I agree with all of them, mainly 4, 7, 2 and 6 (i'm focused on these types for a few days)
Please do share, if you come up with something to add. I've always appreciated your input.
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
I'm also reading jung and his great chapter about shadows. Like everytime you go left, right becomes your shadow... Makes me think a lot about the few times i felt my own shadow when talking to you ... For example.
Thanks for letting me know. Yeah, I've had a number of shadow realizations, myself.
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
There is an n instead of k at 8's weakness. It was my duty to restore this untolerable chaotic mistake :-)..
ooh bang
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Projection
