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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:22:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by EMike583
quote:
Originally posted by sappy
It seems EMike is the typing boss when Glasgow is not around.
G. probably grieves right now cause Germany lost the semi-final against Italy..
I'm starting a whole new movement here on the EIDB, in opposition to the status quo lead by DFGray, Glasgow, et al.
If it's going to be a team sport I'll have to leave.
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:26:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Timo84
Edit: Yes, your point was that you feel still treated unfairly by the bad bad EIDB for not seeing your self-typing type clearly. That's what I pick up from this thread.
If that's what you pick up, you seriously need to look at yourself. I care much more about understanding the Enneagram than I do about picking a type for myself so quit projecting over and over.
It seems like you have zero curiousity and only want to maintain a status quo. How does that support your being a 5? (Or did you retype?)
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Edited by - sunny on 28 Jun 2012 10:29:11 PM |
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aestrivex
Member
499 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:32:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunny
What we see is her 4-wing creativity and Sx 1st.
so your view is that she is a five, but forget about her expression of avarice, instead you see her as a five because of her wing and instinct. but forget about the bit about the core fixation being important.
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"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."
-- Wikipedia article on Alpha Oumar Konare, leader of Mali. |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:34:46 PM
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| so far from what Ive seen there is almost without exception a need for humans to be seen as they see themselves. Without that humans feel intensely misunderstood in general and play that out in various ways? Just from what Ive seen over the years over and over. I mean thats probably a no brainer because its sure very obvious |
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Timo84
Member
712 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:46:01 PM
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Sunny, if you say that a sense of being mistaken or misunderstood, eg that you are a very special, authentic and deep 4 and not a plain and boring nine isn't the red thread in most of your recent posts, then I am blind and wrong. That's what I sense and if you say it is not there at all... that's ok. I am open to be wrong here.
Considering my type, there is no need for retyping, I am still sx/sp 5w6 and will remain being that type.
You might as well stop projecting onto me, seeing things that aren't there, but if you have any feedback on what you think my type is, I am open for it. I am open for feedback of how you percieve me, but not open for retyping as there is nothing to retype. |
Edited by - Timo84 on 28 Jun 2012 10:46:26 PM |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 10:54:42 PM
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quote:
You might as well stop projecting onto me, seeing things that aren't there, but if you have any feedback on what you think my type is, I am open for it. I am open for feedback of how you percieve me, but not open for retyping as there is nothing to retype
one hand extended clutching back? general observation (not reflecting on your type) |
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:01:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by aestrivex
quote:
Originally posted by sunny
What we see is her 4-wing creativity and Sx 1st.
so your view is that she is a five, but forget about her expression of avarice, instead you see her as a five because of her wing and instinct. but forget about the bit about the core fixation being important.
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"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."
-- Wikipedia article on Alpha Oumar Konare, leader of Mali.
I agree that it's necessary to look at the passions/sins in typing people. In her case, I haven't seen enough to know for sure, but I do know that outside of the board, she's typed as a 5/4.
I'm trying to make a point about the 4/5-5/4 space having the potential for being "fuzzy"...that's seen as 9ish here on the EIDB.
Recently I'm re-reading Sandra Maitri's books and she describes 4s and 5s in terms that are considered indicators of 9ishness here. Because of that...along with other things I've read by other authors, and the information I've heard at workshops, I think it's worth discussing.
There are big differences of opinion about this.
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:22:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Timo84
Sunny, if you say that a sense of being mistaken or misunderstood, eg that you are a very special, authentic and deep 4 and not a plain and boring nine isn't the red thread in most of your recent posts, then I am blind and wrong. That's what I sense and if you say it is not there at all... that's ok. I am open to be wrong here.
Considering my type, there is no need for retyping, I am still sx/sp 5w6 and will remain being that type.
You might as well stop projecting onto me, seeing things that aren't there, but if you have any feedback on what you think my type is, I am open for it. I am open for feedback of how you percieve me, but not open for retyping as there is nothing to retype.
I'm not disputing your self-typing. I'm wondering what motivates you to keep bringing this up. It seems like an important thing to you...that you believe I'm trying to prove something with everything I say and do.
I want you to back off and let me be who I am...that's all. I see type as complicated and personal. It's noone else's business to say what type another person is unless they're asked or know the person very well, or the subject is a celebrity.
I announced a shift in how I see myself...it wasn't an easy thing to admit. Now I have to deal with ridicule almost every day from you and others.
I want you to stop commenting that the things I say and do are only in the interest of proving something about myself, because they're not.
I'm interested in exploring these ideas. You seem more interested in heckling me than in having a discussion. Please leave comments about my type out of your responses to me.
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Edited by - sunny on 28 Jun 2012 11:24:51 PM |
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aestrivex
Member
499 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:23:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sunny
I agree that it's necessary to look at the passions/sins in typing people. In her case, I haven't seen enough to know for sure, but I do know that outside of the board, she's typed as a 5/4.
okay.
quote:
I'm trying to make a point about the 4/5-5/4 space having the potential for being "fuzzy"...that's seen as 9ish here on the EIDB.
all right. incidentally, i disagree with that point.
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"His terms are noted for the restoration of democracy in spite of the 1997 difficulties, his management of the Tuareg Rebellion in the north, and his decentralization of the government. However, corruption remained a significant problem under Konaré's administration."
-- Wikipedia article on Alpha Oumar Konare, leader of Mali. |
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:28:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by aestrivex
quote:
Originally posted by sunny
I agree that it's necessary to look at the passions/sins in typing people. In her case, I haven't seen enough to know for sure, but I do know that outside of the board, she's typed as a 5/4.
okay.
quote:
I'm trying to make a point about the 4/5-5/4 space having the potential for being "fuzzy"...that's seen as 9ish here on the EIDB.
all right. incidentally, i disagree with that point.
Can you elaborate? What point do you disagree with?
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:29:07 PM
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| will do. Was simply interested but no prob. |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:31:16 PM
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| the fours and fives argue maitre alot. I have no problem with fours and fives as fuzzy. could share examples but itd be fruitless |
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:32:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
the fours and fives argue maitre alot. I have no problem with fours and fives as fuzzy. could share examples but itd be fruitless
I'd like to hear them if you're inclined...
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Timo84
Member
712 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:38:05 PM
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| Again, from my perspective, you are constructing an argument that isn't even there. I don't know you. I never met you, nor did I ever see a picture or something else of you. So I don't know anything about you or your life. I also don't even pay much attention to what exactly you as an indivual write. I don't even have time to think about this. I pretty much don't care. |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:47:59 PM
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| Maitre describes 4 as the lost one sometimes and it has been discussed ad nauseum the family system role of 4 as the lost child. Thinking in terms of identity and trying to figure oneself out endlessly would certainly seem as if in a fog or hazy, perhaps with certain images bewitching the mind. How would that not appear as fuzzy? Or when a five abstracts out of reality? That would not appear as fuzzy? It only applies to nine if you are the observer? I completely disagree with that premise. And that isnt even figuring in a fixated somnabulistic state that most everyone autopilots to. These definitions are vague at best for me |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:50:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomg
How do you think self consciousness would figure into each seperate center?
self-consciousness has many shades of meaning.
Yes. Very much so |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:02:59 AM
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| I wish I could have a show of hands for all of the different people of differing types identifying with the lost child role. 9 is the end of the enneagram or melting pot so its a highly undefined reflection in my opinion, not necessarily more fuzzy than any other type with ego boundary issues. The self expression might vary and 9 will have a harder time picking themselves out than either of the image or fear types. |
Edited by - MH on 29 Jun 2012 12:03:54 AM |
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:05:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomg
Structure - 4, 5 twins, 9 as far away as possible from them. E circle not pigeonholes. Structural logic. Creates many differences.
4 and 5 are monads. Distinct and separate from environment. World vs. self.
Not fuzzy. Intuition and access to unconscious leads to a kind of perceptual flux, impressionism - important points, esp to understand 5w4. But it's the difference between the self as a diver descending to the bottom of the river (4, 5), versus the self as always in the river, or the self as the river.
Do you disagree that Bjork may be a 5?
You don't believe that 4s can be "fuzzy-headed"?
Does fuzziness belongs in the 9 category?
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:08:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
the fours and fives argue maitre alot. I have no problem with fours and fives as fuzzy. could share examples but itd be fruitless
Do you mean they argue against her, or they use her arguments to support their views?
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:10:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
I wish I could have a show of hands for all of the different people of differing types identifying with the lost child role. 9 is the end of the enneagram or melting pot so its a highly undefined reflection in my opinion, not necessarily more fuzzy than any other type with ego boundary issues. The self expression might vary and 9 will have a harder time picking themselves out than either of the image or fear types.
Yeah, I've seen it used for both 4s and 9s. I can see why too. Both can feel like that.
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:10:55 AM
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| mostly against. Bear is a member that relates to maitres descriptions. Most others have not. Same with Palmers five description. Most see it as ninish. I thought it was sp 6w5ish |
Edited by - MH on 29 Jun 2012 12:12:43 AM |
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sunny
Member
USA
9592 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:17:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomg
it's the difference between the self as a diver descending to the bottom of the river (4, 5), versus the self as always in the river, or the self as the river.
That's not how R/H see it.
They see 4s as having a process like this:...everything taken in goes down into the unconscious where it hooks not-okay messages and reemerges tinted the color of childhood pain. It's not something they're in control of.
9s sort of rearrange contents and create an internal fantasy-land.
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Orpheus
Member
Romania
4016 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:43:57 AM
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there's a failure to distinguish the mechanisms of fixation from incidental traits. one is a condition of the character of fixation, the other is circumstantial. 4s and 5s can be 'fuzzy', but it is different and the result of different forces than a 9.
also, sexual 5 is not the magic un-5ish 5. no type is more mysticized as being somehow deeply different than the other two dominant instinct expressions of main type.
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King Night
Mutima kwithu kuli nkongono, para kakuwira comene
Love has come to rule and transform.
Stay awake, my heart, stay awake.
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blackLight
Member
USA
5877 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:51:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
Maitre describes 4 as the lost one sometimes and it has been discussed ad nauseum the family system role of 4 as the lost child. Thinking in terms of identity and trying to figure oneself out endlessly would certainly seem as if in a fog or hazy, perhaps with certain images bewitching the mind. How would that not appear as fuzzy? Or when a five abstracts out of reality? That would not appear as fuzzy? It only applies to nine if you are the observer? I completely disagree with that premise. And that isnt even figuring in a fixated somnabulistic state that most everyone autopilots to. These definitions are vague at best for me
I don't experience 4 or 5 as fuzzy. There is a meandering vague-ish foggy feeling to 9s that neither 4 or 5 have. Anyone could make an argument that at some given moment any type can be fuzzy headed, and we all have reasons to be that way from time to time, but not as a central feature. 4s lost child/search for identity tends to be expressed as a very strong, very elaborately defined "i am this, and that, and this way, and I do this in this particular way, and have this particular relationship to that person" and so on... but it will change. They identify strongly with their current identity and emotional state... their identity is pushed around in their expression as a matter of course, so from mood to mood there may be a lack of clarity, but within each mood there is a very high level of specificity (too much specificity at times because of the need to prove identity). We could say it's fuzzy because it will change from one day to the next, but that's a fuzzy way to put it IMO. It's more accurate to say that they blow with the wind, that they are changeable, that they are not as clear about who they are as they make themselves out to be (and obviously I'm talking about outward expression here, not what they might be experiencing inside). You might say their thinking is flimsy at times, but not usually fuzzy. In the case of 5s, I'd say they are often wrong-headed. Their thinking & expression can be confused because it's overly complicated and contains too many elements (the false attempt to be omniscient). When they are "fuzzy", it's convoluted, overly packed with tangential details, not soft around the edges.
I'm reminded of the Tom Condon presentation at IEA a few years back when he talked about types' use of language (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23090). This is what he highlighted for nines:
LACK OF CONTEXT/REFERENTIAL INDEX
- Use of personal pronouns when the context is unknown, or can’t easily be understood based on the preceding sentences. Uncontextualized use of they, them, you.
– lots of detail, no central thrust
- It’s hard to tell where the story is going – insufficient context
I find that even relatively healthy nines who are good communicators do all three of these things a lot. Ever since I heard Tom give this talk I've seen how prevalent it is for them to use pronouns in a way where the nouns they refer to have been lost... that's fuzzy.
He said fives often 'thingify' - turn verbs and adjectives into nouns, which is a way of solidifying something that used to be fuzzier. FWIW I think Bjork is sx5w4 and one of the reasons I don't buy her as a 9 is that I do not find her to be fuzzy.
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Edited by - blackLight on 29 Jun 2012 01:07:40 AM |
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EMike583
Member
USA
1466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 12:55:54 AM
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| I thingify bear, so I must be a five as I long suspected |
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Topic |
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The 5/4 space
