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oceanlife
Member
USA
5645 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 11:16:42 AM
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I've been hitting such milestones with EMDR therapy. Much calmer, more present. An easier time letting things go, not worrying about what others think. Who am I going to let down, how I'm letting myself down. How to prevent being seen in a way that I don't want to be seen (or associated).
Rather than walking a razor's edge - abandonment on one side, and inclusion on the other, it's remarkable to feel one's life as more level yet deeper than ever.
There's inherent 6-ness in trauma, and that's what I've been chronically attuned to (and trying to prevent further trauma through abandonment and feeling dismissed and left out). So much to the point that the 4 issues seem to have diminished in the last week, and I read the whole Wisdom E6 chapter the other night and felt that that was accurate for me. I felt for a moment that I was a 6, and was OK with it. I was reading it from a calm perspective, not trying to grasp desperately for an identity out of all my suffering.
Yet this is what feels so 4 about me. The quest for my own identity and pushing away anyone else's version/vision of me. I've set myself up for constant rejection (in many subtle ways that I've amplified) by compulsively having to reject whatever people say or think about me.
Going as far back as I can in therapy, the message I got from childhood was 'You wish I were different. And not me. Who I am is not right for anyone and will not be accepted.' So I've become chronically 'dismissive' of what I do and who I am, counter to the deep need (and ability) for self-expression and self-creating. In other words, completely self-rejecting.
It's becoming the joy of all joys to be self-accepting. And calm. And present. And self-honoring, without giving others the ability to raise or lower my value with a word, or a look.
Who is this 'me' that I must be true to?
What a relieving question. It's opens the world up.
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shakti
Member
USA
10579 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 2:42:25 PM
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| olife, glad you are experiencing breakthroughs with EMDR. I have heard many good things about it from a friend. |
Edited by - shakti on 30 Jun 2012 2:43:34 PM |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 10:24:01 PM
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Your "YOU" is not your personality. It's yoru person. A personality (or type) is just a defence for who you truly are.
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type. |
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Timo84
Member
712 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 10:37:55 PM
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| Actually I have to agree here. The Enneagram "Type" is an construct which is like an imitation of your true nature. Out of the feeling you somehow "lost it" and wanting to get it back, the type emerges. But it is more a cover-up of the pain of loss and ultimately also the essence, because the essence can never lost. |
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threadbare
Member
666 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 01:53:09 AM
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| this is a stupider thread |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 1:36:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by oceanlife
I've been hitting such milestones with EMDR therapy. Much calmer, more present. An easier time letting things go, not worrying about what others think. Who am I going to let down, how I'm letting myself down. How to prevent being seen in a way that I don't want to be seen (or associated).
Rather than walking a razor's edge - abandonment on one side, and inclusion on the other, it's remarkable to feel one's life as more level yet deeper than ever.
There's inherent 6-ness in trauma, and that's what I've been chronically attuned to (and trying to prevent further trauma through abandonment and feeling dismissed and left out). So much to the point that the 4 issues seem to have diminished in the last week, and I read the whole Wisdom E6 chapter the other night and felt that that was accurate for me. I felt for a moment that I was a 6, and was OK with it. I was reading it from a calm perspective, not trying to grasp desperately for an identity out of all my suffering.
Yet this is what feels so 4 about me. The quest for my own identity and pushing away anyone else's version/vision of me. I've set myself up for constant rejection (in many subtle ways that I've amplified) by compulsively having to reject whatever people say or think about me.
Going as far back as I can in therapy, the message I got from childhood was 'You wish I were different. And not me. Who I am is not right for anyone and will not be accepted.' So I've become chronically 'dismissive' of what I do and who I am, counter to the deep need (and ability) for self-expression and self-creating. In other words, completely self-rejecting.
It's becoming the joy of all joys to be self-accepting. And calm. And present. And self-honoring, without giving others the ability to raise or lower my value with a word, or a look.
Who is this 'me' that I must be true to?
What a relieving question. It's opens the world up.
4s don't do this. ^^^ The talking about their 4-ness using E4 buzzwords. And the kind of presentational style this has. Partly, like something you'd show your mom in hopes she might proudly display it on her refrigerator.
It's lofty ('air/dry' / has an underlying pedantry) and depersonalized, even as you may be intending to be personally revealing ('wet') and articulating individualism. The post wants to impart godseye timeless universal wisdom, for the wholesome good-of-all...as opposed to being a more real-time color-saturated trickle that winds its way, cutting a fresh path through a lush emotional jungle or a harsh barren alien landscape...which is what could be expected of 4s when revealing personal stuff.
And calm isn't an ideal for 4s...as it seems to be for you.
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 8:04:54 PM
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It might be a good idea to find out for sure what type you are, before proceeding any further with Ennegram therapy.
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type. |
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Corruption
Member
United Kingdom
273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 8:53:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
It might be a good idea to find out for sure what type you are, before proceeding any further with Ennegram therapy.
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type.
He's not talking about Enneagram therapy.
Even if he was, if what Oceanlife is saying is true then it looks to me like he has made genuine progress with a core issue - who cares what E-type it correlates closest to?
Also, if you were really serious about the E-gram, you don't just look for one type and hang everything on that, search over. You make an honest effort to understand your relationship to EVERY type, but not just superficial resemblences. |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 03:15:44 AM
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Unless I read wrong, it seems like Ocean is trying to somehow combine Enneagram with that eye de-traumatization thearpy. Once you're at the stage of doing that kind of therapy, it's probably good to have somebody very qualified to ask these questions to.
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type. |
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 08:31:55 AM
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I'm glad to hear EMDR is working for you, o. I tried it myself for a few sessions and never could tell if it had done anything for me (I was trying to hit on one particular issue). I've known some people who have had dramatic results from it, especially where trauma is involved.
quote:
Going as far back as I can in therapy, the message I got from childhood was 'You wish I were different. And not me. Who I am is not right for anyone and will not be accepted.' So I've become chronically 'dismissive' of what I do and who I am, counter to the deep need (and ability) for self-expression and self-creating. In other words, completely self-rejecting.
I recommend you check out p31 of Wisdom.
FTR, as with most passions & virtues, equanimity does not fit neatly with a dictionary definition. Rather than meaning calm, it's more about having a clarity of mind that supports not getting swept away by emotional reactions. You could be incredibly excited and equanimous at the same time. Envy is the compulsion to measure, to constantly put oneself on a balance scale and measure yourself up or down in comparison to others or to ideals. Equanimity is the cessation of that... literally considering all things equal. Maitri:
Equanimity literally means "with equal mind" and has come to connote emotional balance, even when under stress. This balance is only possible when we bear all of ourselves with an equal mind and heart. Equanimity is an openness to the whole of ourselves. This means forsaking the ideal images in our minds. The following is Ichazo's definition of this virtue:
It is balance. A whole being lives in complete harmony with his environment. His moves are economical and always appropriate to his circumstances. He is not emotionally affected by external stimuli but responds to them exactly as much as is necessary.
This is only possible when we do not measure ourselves against others and don't take what we encounter in life personally, as a statement about us, but rather take it on its own terms.
Equanimity is considered in Buddhism one of the marks of enlightenment - in fact, the highest one. It means to see from the broader panorama, getting the big picture of things, and with this view, everything falls into perspective.
That isn't to say that being calm wouldn't naturally be a result of experiencing more equanimity, or that a four wouldn't ever use that word or value being more calm. But dfg's point is well-made. A four does not naturally value a condition where their emotional state is not juicing things up. The virtue for any type is anathema to the ego.
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Orpheus
Member
Romania
3999 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 09:32:01 AM
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equanimity isn't about achieving some state or holding other states at bay, but having a self expanded to hold all the turbulence of the heart without identifying or having the self rocked by them.
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King Night
Mutima kwithu kuli nkongono, para kakuwira comene
Love has come to rule and transform.
Stay awake, my heart, stay awake.
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 4:01:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
4s don't do this. ^^^ The talking about their 4-ness using E4 buzzwords. And the kind of presentational style this has. Partly, like something you'd show your mom in hopes she might proudly display it on her refrigerator.
It's lofty ('air/dry' / has an underlying pedantry) and depersonalized, even as you may be intending to be personally revealing ('wet') and articulating individualism. The post wants to impart godseye timeless universal wisdom, for the wholesome good-of-all...as opposed to being a more real-time color-saturated trickle that winds its way, cutting a fresh path through a lush emotional jungle or a harsh barren alien landscape...which is what could be expected of 4s when revealing personal stuff.
And calm isn't an ideal for 4s...as it seems to be for you.
Beside the fact I find your message disrespectful, aggressive and missing substance, there are also a few assertions that are simply false. I have to decided to focus on them.
quote:
4s don't do this. ^^^ The talking about their 4-ness using E4 buzzwords. And the kind of presentational style this has. Partly, like something you'd show your mom in hopes she might proudly display it on her refrigerator.
In other words : 4s would not use standard E-vocabulary to talk about their fixation and would not seek for approval from a parental figure. Both are false.
4 is an analytic type, mainly fixated on analysing and expressing feelings and personal experience. 4s, especially with a strong SO component are likely introject the surrounding vocabulary to describe and explain their personal experience.
It's not original to say that 4s are expecting parenting from people in their lives. You can find it in most authors including R&H, for example in this text : http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtObRel.asp. In short, 4s feel disconnected from their original parental figures and looking subconsciously for this "virtual parent" they have always been missing. One of the ways to do it is the rescuer stuff. But an other way I find in most 4s, is looking for validation of their personal direction in someone or some place they will consider as symbolically the ideal parental figure. You'll also notice that there is no such thing about type 9. A little about the other emotional types but most clearly in type 4.
quote:
as opposed to being a more real-time color-saturated trickle that winds its way, cutting a fresh path through a lush emotional jungle or a harsh barren alien landscape
That's a caricature, that is most likely to match an SX/SP or SP/SX 4. A 4w5 whose dominant instincts are SO and SP for example does not look like that at all in his usual way of being.
For a person who is working hard to broaden the understanding of type 9 (and I believe that your descriptions and abilities to detect unusual 9ness in some celebrities are very worthy), I feel you extremely poor here on type 4 and over promoting clichés. Why not use clichés for a first grasp. But denying somebody's search for understanding his type violently by opposing a brutal stereotype seems to me totally unacceptable, and even more because your worth about type 9 makes you a powerful regular member of the board and people are likely to blindly trust what you irresponsibly say.
I understand the initial motivation : actually many 9s mistype for 4 or 5. And I understand that somebody coming to the board typing as 4 or 5 could be encouraged to study the possibility of type 9. But it seems like the board is pushing this tendency much too far, and especially blindly, to even start to ignore some of the fundamentals of type 4 and 5 who are being denied their complexity and richness to the benefit of recurring clichés. I kept on wondering why until I could see better who were the members behind all this. And one of them is you. And I think it's time for a wind of change about it. That's why I'm calling you out, and I feel nothing personal about it. Because if I can help reforming all that, the whole board will offer a better place to help people find their types seriously.
And if you call me a 1w9 I come will to the place where you live and cut your throat with equanimous pleasure. 
Well seriously, I'm really sorry to be so brutal and personally judgemental. I first wanted to write a more humorous reply. But maybe it would not have had the effect I'm expecting : a change. 4s and 5s do exist, and not all of them are 9s imitating 4 or 5. And it's important to study the core patterns of these types as well as type 9's. When you say olife talks about calm thus he can't be a 4, it is at least as unsubstantial than if I said you're starting an aggression on this thread so you can't be a 9 !
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15277 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2012 : 4:12:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by oceanlife
Yet this is what feels so 4 about me. The quest for my own identity and pushing away anyone else's version/vision of me. I've set myself up for constant rejection (in many subtle ways that I've amplified) by compulsively having to reject whatever people say or think about me.
Going as far back as I can in therapy, the message I got from childhood was 'You wish I were different. And not me. Who I am is not right for anyone and will not be accepted.' So I've become chronically 'dismissive' of what I do and who I am, counter to the deep need (and ability) for self-expression and self-creating. In other words, completely self-rejecting.
Rejecting other people's definitions of yourself seems diametrically opposed to rejecting your own self-expression; if you constantly had to reject whatever people said or thought about you, why would you accept the message that you are not right for anyone and will not be accepted?
- [Stormy] |
Edited by - Stormy on 02 Jul 2012 4:13:02 PM |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 01:19:04 AM
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that i very six centered.
i don;t want to muss with your adjustment. bt my bf is very 4ish 2ish 7ish.
but he's at heart 6ish.
i can;t personally imagine giving a good god damn about the judgement people make on me( save to flaunt them)- but especially letting anyone down. i don;t hold any thing for anyone- in that context.
i never owed anyone anything. and i never felt that sense of responsibility- which seems important to my six and a center of his angst.
don;t want to muss up your awesome breakthrough but had to say my peace.
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"If you’re going through hell, keep going" |
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lovemyth
Member
USA
2934 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 01:26:16 AM
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also i will argue that equanimity is the total acceptance of what come to you- and that everything is in it's right place. even if that is not what you may have desired or believed to be right or even wanted.
it is that life is life. and you are you. and it's all right perfect- despite it all
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"If you’re going through hell, keep going" |
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oceanlife
Member
USA
5645 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 09:40:44 AM
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Thanks bear, shakti, and all who have posted.
I really do mean 'calm', and am not trying to use 4 buzzwords. As Crimson said, I am only comparing to E theory after my sessions. She does not know the E, though she was recommended to me by an E teacher who I found near me. This teacher incidentally typed me as a sx/sp 6w5 (soc-last because of the way I describe my 'needing people' and then 'not needing people', my heavy push/pull), and saw my troubles in coming to a firm belief/knowledge of my type (as I told her I self-type as a 4w5, albeit it doubtfully). Obviously she sensed my doubt and said I brought to her a lot of head energy. After I said I see myself as a 4 she said OK. That's when she recommended the EMDR therapist to work on my childhood trauma of losing my dad and my subsequent fear of 'coming to conclusions', which to me symbolizes loss and death (as I so vividly remember being told of his death. My 'auditory' function is so finely tuned, and attuned, to attempt to NOT hear words of loss, that I often think of who I may 'kill off' if I did that to someone else. I don't want others to feel as devastated as I did. And that's what EMDR is supposed to be able to lessen…the carrying around of old trauma.)
So that's the way that I feel calmer and I'm saying more 'equanimous' (which in my Mac dictionary is 'mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper'), because I'm not as often walking around predicting loss at any moment and pining for someone or something to complete me, be it a girl, a location, the perfect audience, the perfect gig to set my life finally straight again (from being so turned upside down).
For many years now I've had strict rules and patterns of emotional maintenance - coffee, music, no music, silence, drinks, hikes, desperate reaching out, negative comparisons, depression, and basically putting out the energy 'don't tip me over the edge, cause I'm close'. I've always wanted recognition but could never handle it. What did it mean when/if it finally came? So now I'm becoming able to find out, without it being so life or death. It's just attention. It's just others opinions (good or bad, like or dislike). And I myself can remain unaffected at the core.
Bear, I actually brought Wisdom on this vacation that I'm on (as my wife jokingly comments, 'you're reading that book again??' And I was re-reading the intro sections yesterday. Interesting you mentioned page 31. Here's how I fit into those messages:
Unconscious Childhood: 'It's not okay to trust yourself.' (6)
Basic Fears: 'Fear of being without identity or personal significance' as well as the 6 'Being without support or guidance'
[this was something the local E teacher noticed. She said that when she told me that 6's 'just want to feel supported', that I relaxed in a very obvious way. It must've been an automatic reaction. That impressed on me.
Basic Desires: 'To be oneself'
I don't want to be anyone but me, and I can feel it when I'm operating out of fear of being me. I realize I'm in such an anxious state - what will people think, etc. I can't relax and be present due to worry - and have been for so so so long. Like 25 years, since the initial trauma (nevermind the ongoing trauma of emotional abandonment from my mom in convincing me that I need friends and to be included because I'm no OK without other, supposedly stronger, more capable and sel-assured people).
Lost Childhood messages: 'You are seen for who you are.'
Again, the local E teacher noted that all I brought to her was a combination of 4 and 6. And currently in EMDR we are most easily focusing on all the 6 stuff. 'Fear' comes up all the time, and I'm working on feeling safer with who I am, as I am. She noted how I've been taught to focus outward, on other people's wants from me. As if pleasing others and gaining approval and inclusion can foster safety. I guess I was taught that 'to be myself was not safe', or at least that's how I translated it. I believed my mom. :-(
I see that this is a lot of 6, as lovemyth commented. And as I mentioned when first coming off a great session the other day I went to Wisdom's 6 and felt very content with it. Yet I thought that underlying that was still 'seeking identity', yet can see how 'certainty' and 'approval' are also major on my list.
I think that's all for now. I appreciate other's input and am allowing myself necessary time to breathe deep, wait, and perhaps respond.
-olife
PS lovemyth actually that definition feels right to me, in the way that again I'm always rejecting my current life. Accepting it in the moment, and only for the moment, is what brings Presence. Not past or future (my life WAS better, or how many ways COULD my life be better), only as it is. That's mind blowing, and heart-exploding.
PPS what strikes to my heart the quickest? 'Who are you going to let down by being you?'
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 10:06:24 AM
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skyboy, I appreciate your post. dfg does have a way of being insensitive sometimes... my sense is that he may not be used to having impact. I'm writing because this thread had me uneasy from the get go. olife is someone I have always appreciated on the board, and I'm happy to see him find something that is working for him. However, I don't think he's elucidating something about point 4, even though his experience sounds like a breakthrough for him. I initially decided to leave it alone because it felt phony to me to comment if I was feeling discord about it, but when dfg posted, and then the discussion went in the direction of defining equanimity as being calm, I felt compelled to chime in. This is not easy, as I know it is disrespectful to olife's process. I know that many people here respect my opinion, and when a few old timers agree on someone's self-typing not being what they think it is, that is very disempowering for that person, and painful for them to not feel seen (and especially if we're wrong, a real disservice to them).
But there is context here... dfg isn't basing his analysis on this one post or this one aspect of his post. o has been here for years, has posted a lot about himself, pictures, songs he wrote, his music videos and performances. When I met him many years ago, seven was one of the types he was seriously considering for himself... hardly a likely scenario for a four. There is a pattern that he's been following that has a super-strong nine aroma, and it's hard to ignore once you recognize it (if I were to go to an alternate, it would be six, a type he's also frequently considered for himself). I'm all for giving people space to try on different types, even if I think it's off. But it is extremely challenging to navigate how do deal with this when someone titled a thread using a type that I am so sure is not theirs. dfg's post was not skillful, in the sense that hitting someone where it hurts is more likely to create resistance than insight. But there isn't a criteria to be skillful to join this board, and that kind of skill is not easy to develop.
Sort of an aside, but I run into this from time to time... There are a few people I see IRL once in a blue moon who are mistyped in one way or another, and they bring up their type every time I see them. Some people do this as a matter of course - 2s & 6s seem particularly prone to mentioning their type. However, I find that it is often people who are mistyped who constantly refer to their type as an explanation for their behavior, and it feels like an image they have taken on because of that. I often try to avoid these people, because I don't want every conversation I have with them to turn into one about the enneagram, and also find it difficult to not say anything about the mistyping. These aren't people who maybe could be some other type... I do feel I keep an open mind and usually take people's self-typing as correct unless something really feels off. For example, one guy who thinks he's sx-first walks around with a water bottle attached to his belt, and I've never sat with him for a meal where he doesn't need the table adjusted or switch out his chair or some problem with the food. He's one of those loudly sp-first people where the fixation is just screaming at you. So every time he calls himself sx, which is pretty much every conversation I've ever had with him (we're both 5s and were in some E work together), I can either challenge him and his self-perception, or ignore it w/o being able to drop it. If he didn't mention it all the time, I'd have no problem ignoring it.
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 12:51:03 PM
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Thanks bear for your posting all this.
I'm not feeling very proud of my reaction, yet I'm almost sure everything I said was very close to truth.
I know olife for a shorter while than you all on this board, but yet we've had some exchanges and I listened to most of his songs and like them. I just hate someone I like being treated this way.
It's long since I don't take personally the 9/4 ambiguity happening on this board because I made my mind about all this, about my type, and about this subtle tendency of the board to make it unclear. But this ambiguity is still here.
I've also felt ofile as a 9 when I came in here (photograph from his album, friendly/goofy/nice guy tone), and we had a some talks about it, I became convinced by 4w5, even though his life, his energy are very different from mine and the 4w5s I used to know before. Same about the songs lyrics. They strike at 4 and I know many 9 artists well. I understand people having hesitations about his type. And it's not about being sure about someone's type which is pretty secondary as Corruption says. If olife turns out to be a 9w1, hallelujah. It's the underlying disrespect and power games it all creates that I dislike. Well I also dislike truth being replaced by sorts of fuzzy pictures.
I know many people whose type is hard to find. I'm starting to think that the young composer I'm spending so much time writing music with for 2 years could be a 7w6 instead of 4w5, like both (him and me) used to think.
There are "atypical" people in all types. Even what we call "atypical" is subjective. They are atypical to the inner image we have personally created so far about a type before meeting them. Like I created a picture of 4w5 based on myself because I didn't know any 4w5 before I started meeting some of them. And there is no other way than giving it time, observing and understanding. Until the "eurekas" start to happen and we don't know when.
There are FACTS about types. I know the importance of reading energy and feeling the vibe of people. And I know how difficult it is to observe these facts, because some defence mechanisms, even if having the same subconscious roots, have different ways to outer expression. Also we are sometimes really able to read between the lines, sometimes we are just dreaming and seeing things who are not here.
I'm also glad to hear that things turn out better for olife, of course.
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 1:09:26 PM
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olife, we cross-posted. I remember a couple of years ago when you threw out all the books, and I thought that was great. For some people, hooking into type can be a real blessing and immediately show them where they are tripping up. For others, it becomes a search for identity in and of itself and it seems to take them 'round in circles. You're learning a lot of really great stuff right now and it will have a profound impact on you. IMO, the tendency to attempt to frame it in type deadens it. I experience this myself, even being certain about my type - it can be a distraction or a way of distancing from my experience to do any kind of enneagramatic framing. In retrospect I can also see that in therapy it sometimes derailed both me and my therapist to be focusing on type (and in spite of having tons of training, I was the one who led her to see she had her wing and stacking mistyped).
EDIT - to add - I meant to be more specific but I was rushing... losing your father is a profound event in your life, and when issues around that loss come up and you (or your therapist) connect it to the E, that's a disservice to your direct understanding. It potentially feeds into your tendency to ruminate, which can cut off an opportunity to go deeper.
The following is not to make a case for your type, but to highlight the fact that therapists can be quite fallible on type. There's a fellow DA student whom I'm sure is a so/sx or sx/so 9. Her mother is a long time DA student and even longer time therapist who has known the E for 25 years or more. When this student told her mother I thought she was a 9, her mother said there was no way, because people know when she enters a room. She thinks she's a four, and can't imagine her being a nine (I could imagine her as a 1, 8, 6 or 3 before I'd consider 4). I've been doing inner work with her for 4-5 years, and I can attest that there is nothing in her inner experience that speaks to 4 - she never laments, longs, talks about frustration, etc & doesn't have a particularly personalized process. She feels like a gut type. She also hasn't learned the E and once in a while asks people for input about her type but never picks up a book to learn it herself. I think her mother is off because the teachings on the instincts have been so scant, and the teaching on social so lame (if you haven't seen quartz' or orpheus recent threads on the instincts, they're a great read). Not to mention the often worn trail here about how much nine descriptions fail to capture the inner life of that type.
skyboy - I definitely understand what you're getting at, and I don't see any reason you should feel bad about your reaction. It was genuine, and there's good reason for it. The whole 4/5 thing is very tough because so many people mistype as those points, so there's a baseline skepticism here anytime someone shows up claiming one of those as their type.
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Edited by - bear on 04 Jul 2012 09:03:41 AM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 1:33:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
4s don't do this. ^^^ The talking about their 4-ness using E4 buzzwords. And the kind of presentational style this has. Partly, like something you'd show your mom in hopes she might proudly display it on her refrigerator.
It's lofty ('air/dry' / has an underlying pedantry) and depersonalized, even as you may be intending to be personally revealing ('wet') and articulating individualism. The post wants to impart godseye timeless universal wisdom, for the wholesome good-of-all...as opposed to being a more real-time color-saturated trickle that winds its way, cutting a fresh path through a lush emotional jungle or a harsh barren alien landscape...which is what could be expected of 4s when revealing personal stuff.
And calm isn't an ideal for 4s...as it seems to be for you.
Beside the fact I find your message disrespectful, aggressive and missing substance, there are also a few assertions that are simply false. I have to decided to focus on them.
There's history-based frustration here: olife has self-typed variously over the years and come to the board for discussion about it. That, in itself -- a 4 continually coming to a group of others to (at least partly) define his individuality -- doesn't jibe with 4ness.
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4s don't do this. ^^^ The talking about their 4-ness using E4 buzzwords. And the kind of presentational style this has. Partly, like something you'd show your mom in hopes she might proudly display it on her refrigerator.
In other words : 4s would not use standard E-vocabulary to talk about their fixation and would not seek for approval from a parental figure. Both are false.
It's not that I think a 4 would never use common e-vocabulary words or phrases; it's that this forms the central thrust of his arguments for his self-typing...when he's self-typing as a 4.
The mom/refrigerator comment wasn't about whether 4s do or don't seek parental approval; I was referring to the style of the writing itself, which, for me, has the 'smell of the Triangle' (3/6/9). A certain tonality around acceptance-seeking. There can be a negative (or several negatives) at the conscious layer (in regards to parents) for these types, but they have an underlying default that is 'positive toward Parents'...hence the name Attachment and the subsequent O.R. psychology.
4 is an analytic type, mainly fixated on analysing and expressing feelings and personal experience. 4s, especially with a strong SO component are likely introject the surrounding vocabulary to describe and explain their personal experience.
It's not original to say that 4s are expecting parenting from people in their lives. You can find it in most authors including R&H, for example in this text : http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtObRel.asp. In short, 4s feel disconnected from their original parental figures and looking subconsciously for this "virtual parent" they have always been missing. One of the ways to do it is the rescuer stuff. But an other way I find in most 4s, is looking for validation of their personal direction in someone or some place they will consider as symbolically the ideal parental figure. You'll also notice that there is no such thing about type 9. A little about the other emotional types but most clearly in type 4.
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as opposed to being a more real-time color-saturated trickle that winds its way, cutting a fresh path through a lush emotional jungle or a harsh barren alien landscape
That's a caricature, that is most likely to match an SX/SP or SP/SX 4. A 4w5 whose dominant instincts are SO and SP for example does not look like that at all in his usual way of being.
Besides soc-last 4s, I was also thinking of an sp/so 4w3 when making that characterization. Yeah, it was a bit cliche-ish/stereotypical, but I think 'cartoons' can occasionally make a good point. I'm assuming readers have seen some of my more unusual (celeb) typings, and that it's apparent that I don't subscribe to a strict set of stereotypes for any of the types.
For a person who is working hard to broaden the understanding of type 9 (and I believe that your descriptions and abilities to detect unusual 9ness in some celebrities are very worthy), I feel you extremely poor here on type 4 and over promoting clichés. Why not use clichés for a first grasp. But denying somebody's search for understanding his type violently by opposing a brutal stereotype seems to me totally unacceptable, and even more because your worth about type 9 makes you a powerful regular member of the board and people are likely to blindly trust what you irresponsibly say.
It's pretty difficult for me to imagine people blindly trusting me, here. I can see that my opinion is respected by some, but even with those people there's been enough open disagreement with me to know there's no blind following.
I understand the initial motivation : actually many 9s mistype for 4 or 5. And I understand that somebody coming to the board typing as 4 or 5 could be encouraged to study the possibility of type 9. But it seems like the board is pushing this tendency much too far, and especially blindly, to even start to ignore some of the fundamentals of type 4 and 5 who are being denied their complexity and richness to the benefit of recurring clichés. I kept on wondering why until I could see better who were the members behind all this. And one of them is you. And I think it's time for a wind of change about it. That's why I'm calling you out, and I feel nothing personal about it. Because if I can help reforming all that, the whole board will offer a better place to help people find their types seriously.
There's a long-standing pattern of 9s taking up a lot of space on this board, often regarding their self-typing. It's a pattern related to the type.
Think about it: the type that has the most difficulty expressing 'me' in the outer world comes to a safe environment and spills 'me' all over the place. Metimes10, shall we say?
And if you call me a 1w9 I come will to the place where you live and cut your throat with equanimous pleasure.
Well seriously, I'm really sorry to be so brutal and personally judgemental. I first wanted to write a more humorous reply. But maybe it would not have had the effect I'm expecting : a change. 4s and 5s do exist, and not all of them are 9s imitating 4 or 5. And it's important to study the core patterns of these types as well as type 9's. When you say olife talks about calm thus he can't be a 4, it is at least as unsubstantial than if I said you're starting an aggression on this thread so you can't be a 9 !
My comments about calm are a continuation of historical observations, which for me includes other such statements that I consider non-4isms.
Overall, it's really simple: the extant E9 descriptions don't illuminate how much turmoil is actually part of the core E9 pattern. Many 9s who read E-descriptions see this as yet another self-diminishment...adding to the pile of self-diminishments that are already native to the pattern. The descriptions make it sound like there's essentially an empty emotional life, and not much better as regard to thought capacity...which doesn't actually jibe with their inner experience. In fact, because of a kind of naive 'unpreparedness', 9s tend to flood, emotionally....which then generates a flood of thoughts, etc. This is where the idealization around peace/calm comes from -- the fact that it's not the 9's real experience.
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
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Edited by - dfgray44 on 03 Jul 2012 1:35:23 PM |
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EMike583
Member
USA
1466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 2:01:44 PM
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quote:
here's history-based frustration here: olife has self-typed variously over the years and come to the board for discussion about it. That, in itself -- a 4 continually coming to a group of others to (at least partly) define his individuality -- doesn't jibe with 4ness.
I see no reason why a Four couldn't do this. Again, you're narrowing the criteria for E4 and expanding the space of E9 to justify your own mistaken self-typing. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 2:15:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by EMike583
I see no reason why a Four couldn't do this. Again, you're narrowing the criteria for E4 and expanding the space of E9 to justify your own mistaken self-typing.
We're free to define and narrow and expand as we please....in a system that's ultimately mere pop psychology.
I'm curious how you came to know all the facts about the types in a system that isn't reality-based. I think it's kinda neat how you seem to have done that.
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Lake
Member
6756 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 2:44:36 PM
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Oh, for the love of Pete.
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Edited by - Lake on 03 Jul 2012 2:46:14 PM |
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 4:11:09 PM
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Dfgray, I'm happy that you're open to the conversation. As I already said, you're really influential in here. I mean there are always people who disagree for the pleasure of disagreeing, but it's not an illusion to me that some of your typings of celebrities and insights about type 9 have a real value to any serious member on this board. From now on, I'm not going to talk about olife as an example, because it creates a sort of "triangle" of two people talking about another one, which is a situation that may often happen on a board I've decided to avoid as much as possible. I'll try to reply generally about the types.
There's history-based frustration here: olife has self-typed variously over the years and come to the board for discussion about it. That, in itself -- a 4 continually coming to a group of others to (at least partly) define his individuality -- doesn't jibe with 4ness.
I see your point. Do you think it's something a 9 would usually do ?
...the 'smell of the Triangle' (3/6/9). A certain tonality around acceptance-seeking. There can be a negative (or several negatives) at the conscious layer (in regards to parents) for these types, but they have an underlying default that is 'positive toward Parents'...hence the name Attachment and the subsequent O.R. psychology.
I also see your point very much. To me, this doesn't help for a typing. I've seen people of any type complaining about their parents and I don't remember this being revealing of a type. Of course, the way they say it is influenced by type a lot. For my best 9w8 friend it's a sort a continuous aggressiveness against his father he has difficulties to put to clear words. 4s are usually more analytical (even if critical) of their parent's personality, because they fundamentally see them as people among people.
Besides soc-last 4s, I was also thinking of an sp/so 4w3 when making that characterization. Yeah, it was a bit cliche-ish/stereotypical, but I think 'cartoons' can occasionally make a good point. I'm assuming readers have seen some of my more unusual (celeb) typings, and that it's apparent that I don't subscribe to a strict set of stereotypes for any of the types.
I also agree that "cartoons" are pedagogically good. Naranjo, Palmer use them a lot and your stereotype was rather good. But I do believe that when it comes to trying to type people who are neither couch potatoes or drama queens, it's time to step out of stereotypes.
It's pretty difficult for me to imagine people blindly trusting me, here. I can see that my opinion is respected by some, but even with those people there's been enough open disagreement with me to know there's no blind following.
Sometimes people disagree because they find what you say interesting. Look at 6s...
There's a long-standing pattern of 9s taking up a lot of space on this board, often regarding their self-typing. It's a pattern related to the type.
I'm really not sure about it. Let's keep sunny, eidbuser and olife away from it if you agree, because of the thing I explained in the first paragraph, and the fact we disagree about their types (me : 4w5, you 9w1). About the people whose type are no mystery here, I don't see 9s doing that a lot. To be honest 4s neither. Actually I would not imagine one of my 4 or 9 friend doing this... maybe 4s a little more... To me this does not give much info about type. What makes you think a 9 would do that ?
Think about it: the type that has the most difficulty expressing 'me' in the outer world comes to a safe environment and spills 'me' all over the place. Metimes10, shall we say?
Hummm.... I see 9s sagaing on facebook a lot. But it's never about them or if so, they still make themselves invisible in what they post.
Overall, it's really simple: the extant E9 descriptions don't illuminate how much turmoil is actually part of the core E9 pattern. Many 9s who read E-descriptions see this as yet another self-diminishment...adding to the pile of self-diminishments that are already native to the pattern. The descriptions make it sound like there's essentially an empty emotional life, and not much better as regard to thought capacity...which doesn't actually jibe with their inner experience. In fact, because of a kind of naive 'unpreparedness', 9s tend to flood, emotionally....which then generates a flood of thoughts, etc. This is where the idealization around peace/calm comes from -- the fact that it's not the 9's real experience.
Ok for 9s feeling things as self-diminishment. A perfect example of my helping a friend choose between 4 and 9 :
Me : << Have felt always different from others, this difference being hard to carry ? >>
Him with wide open eyes << Not at all !!! >>
Later << But I feel like a carpet people have always wiped their feet on >>
He's a clear 9w1.
I'm not sure about the rest. Well, it's rare that people like their type description : I'm not very comfortable with the idea of being a drama queen. Yet I am. As long as "drama" is being given the right meaning for me. And I like "drama prince" better...
Now, I don't remember feeling descriptions suggested that 9s were dumb. And since when I read my first book, the two people that came to me as 9s are maths teachers and researchers in the university, I never thought about it. They are actually two very close friends : 9w1 and 9w8.
Now, I do believe that fixation 9 has a real consequence on many people to cause a difficulty to concentrate on an intellectual task or pay attention to what people say. I've seen how they get wet and sleepy when they try to research. Since another close friend is a 5w4 maths researcher, believe me the difference is VERY visible. These people have roughly the same IQ though.
Of course the inner life of 9s is not flat and dead.
This was my 1000th post. God bless EIDB. 
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15277 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 4:38:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Of course the inner life of 9s is not flat and dead.
It is to the extent it's allowed to be walked all over and not fed.
Congrats on 1000 posts!
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- [Stormy] |
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skyboy
Member
France
1287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 5:08:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Of course the inner life of 9s is not flat and dead.
It is to the extent it's allowed to be walked all over and not fed.
Congrats on 1000 posts!
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- [Stormy]
Thanks Stormy. I feel totally a different man now I reached 1000 !
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
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What type 4 is
