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Originally posted by emerald

In the last few days there have been three or more posts linking Hitler and/or genocide to Type 1 in one way or another. What's the connection?

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Originally posted by Stormy

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Originally posted by emerald

In the last few days there have been three or more posts linking Hitler and/or genocide to Type 1 in one way or another. What's the connection?

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Resentment?

- [Stormy]

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Originally posted by EMike583

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Originally posted by Stormy

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Originally posted by emerald

In the last few days there have been three or more posts linking Hitler and/or genocide to Type 1 in one way or another. What's the connection?

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Resentment?

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'Resentment' in ennea-type I refers to that resentment surrounding taking up more responsibility than others, a feeling that the ennea-type I individual is working harder than everyone else. Source: Character and Neurosis

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Originally posted by Stormy

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Originally posted by EMike583

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Originally posted by Stormy

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Originally posted by emerald

In the last few days there have been three or more posts linking Hitler and/or genocide to Type 1 in one way or another. What's the connection?

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Resentment?

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'Resentment' in ennea-type I refers to that resentment surrounding taking up more responsibility than others, a feeling that the ennea-type I individual is working harder than everyone else. Source: Character and Neurosis

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Precisely; he also could have had a 1-Wing.

- [Stormy]

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Originally posted by EMike583

Racists are mainly Eights and CP Sixes

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An Indian boarding school refers to one of many schools that were established in the United States during the late 19th and early 20th centuries to educate Native American children and youths according to Euro-American standards. They were first established by Christian missionaries of various denominations, who often started schools on reservations and founded boarding schools to provide opportunities for children who did not have schools nearby,[1] especially in the lightly populated areas of the West. The government paid religious societies to provide education to Native American children on reservations. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) founded additional boarding schools based on the assimilation model of the Carlisle Indian Industrial School.

Children were usually immersed in European-American culture through appearance changes with haircuts, were forbidden to speak their native languages, and traditional names were replaced by new European-American names. The experience of the schools was often harsh, especially for the younger children who were separated from their families. In numerous ways, they were encouraged or forced to abandon their Native American identities and cultures...

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The Carlisle Indian Industrial School, founded by the US Army officer Richard Henry Pratt in 1879 at a former military installation, became a model for others established by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). Pratt said in a speech in 1892, "A great general has said that the only good Indian is a dead one. In a sense, I agree with the sentiment, but only in this: that all the Indian there is in the race should be dead. Kill the Indian in him and save the man."[9] Pratt professed "assimilation through total immersion."[9] He had arranged for education of some young Indian men at the Hampton Institute, a historically black college, after he had supervised them as prisoners at a fort in Florida.

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Originally posted by EMike583

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Originally posted by Stormy

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Originally posted by EMike583

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Originally posted by Stormy

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Originally posted by emerald

In the last few days there have been three or more posts linking Hitler and/or genocide to Type 1 in one way or another. What's the connection?

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Resentment?

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'Resentment' in ennea-type I refers to that resentment surrounding taking up more responsibility than others, a feeling that the ennea-type I individual is working harder than everyone else. Source: Character and Neurosis

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Precisely; he also could have had a 1-Wing.

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Who, Hitler?

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Originally posted by quartz

Personally, genocide strikes me as being more based in the 6's version of the good/evil dichotomy, but I don't have proof and am not invested enough in that guess/feel to try to debate it with those who may disagree. I think the kind of violence E1 might lend itself to is more of the "kill the Indian to save the man" type mentality.

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An Indian boarding school refers to one of many schools that were established in the United States during the late 19th and early 20th centuries to educate Native American children and youths according to Euro-American standards. They were first established by Christian missionaries of various denominations, who often started schools on reservations and founded boarding schools to provide opportunities for children who did not have schools nearby,[1] especially in the lightly populated areas of the West. The government paid religious societies to provide education to Native American children on reservations. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) founded additional boarding schools based on the assimilation model of the Carlisle Indian Industrial School.

Children were usually immersed in European-American culture through appearance changes with haircuts, were forbidden to speak their native languages, and traditional names were replaced by new European-American names. The experience of the schools was often harsh, especially for the younger children who were separated from their families. In numerous ways, they were encouraged or forced to abandon their Native American identities and cultures...

....

The Carlisle Indian Industrial School, founded by the US Army officer Richard Henry Pratt in 1879 at a former military installation, became a model for others established by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). Pratt said in a speech in 1892, "A great general has said that the only good Indian is a dead one. In a sense, I agree with the sentiment, but only in this: that all the Indian there is in the race should be dead. Kill the Indian in him and save the man."[9] Pratt professed "assimilation through total immersion."[9] He had arranged for education of some young Indian men at the Hampton Institute, a historically black college, after he had supervised them as prisoners at a fort in Florida.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_boarding_schools

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Originally posted by quartz

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Originally posted by EMike583

Racists are mainly Eights and CP Sixes

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There's already been a thread on racism and type. imo no need to rehash stuff from there. http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27205



emerald, I'm not into the Hitler-typing debate, but I would imagine those who make such linkages are basing it on the 1's desire to eradicate evil. Personally, genocide strikes me as being more based in the 6's version of the good/evil dichotomy, but I don't have proof and am not invested enough in that guess/feel to try to debate it with those who may disagree. I think the kind of violence E1 might lend itself to is more of the "kill the Indian to save the man" type mentality.

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An Indian boarding school refers to one of many schools that were established in the United States during the late 19th and early 20th centuries to educate Native American children and youths according to Euro-American standards. They were first established by Christian missionaries of various denominations, who often started schools on reservations and founded boarding schools to provide opportunities for children who did not have schools nearby,[1] especially in the lightly populated areas of the West. The government paid religious societies to provide education to Native American children on reservations. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) founded additional boarding schools based on the assimilation model of the Carlisle Indian Industrial School.

Children were usually immersed in European-American culture through appearance changes with haircuts, were forbidden to speak their native languages, and traditional names were replaced by new European-American names. The experience of the schools was often harsh, especially for the younger children who were separated from their families. In numerous ways, they were encouraged or forced to abandon their Native American identities and cultures...

....

The Carlisle Indian Industrial School, founded by the US Army officer Richard Henry Pratt in 1879 at a former military installation, became a model for others established by the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA). Pratt said in a speech in 1892, "A great general has said that the only good Indian is a dead one. In a sense, I agree with the sentiment, but only in this: that all the Indian there is in the race should be dead. Kill the Indian in him and save the man."[9] Pratt professed "assimilation through total immersion."[9] He had arranged for education of some young Indian men at the Hampton Institute, a historically black college, after he had supervised them as prisoners at a fort in Florida.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_boarding_schools

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Originally posted by Stormy


"They [Unhealthy Ones] will argue that to save a village, it may be bombed into annihilation. To convert people to their religion, they may be sold into slavery. To protect the lives of unborn fetuses, the lives of adults may be taken."
- Riso and Hudson, 'Personality Types', pg.398

- [Stormy]

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Originally posted by skyboy

I don't think genocide is especially 1ish.

I watched another video about Congo. A psychologist interviewed many "child warriors" who had become adult and finally decided to try to go back to "normal life". The interviews insisted on the pride and instinct and pleasure to kill they remembered. I don't relate much of this "instinct to kill" to a type. I think it's a part of human nature we could have inherited from millenniums of war, which was a step of our "evolution".

Maybe the "warrior" archetype has something to do with type 8, but I'm not so sure. My mother is an 8w7 and even though she likes a good fight for defending her rights and tribe with her body, she hates violence and scenes of physical wounds and blood. I think the pleasure to kill and destroy is simply a part of us, that can be used if we feel it as necessary. We're just lesser in touch with it in our occidental countries where murder is illegal and usually not very helpful. Personally, I can fantasize easily on it and it has a natural physical echo in me I don't clearly relate to fixation 8.

I don't remember echoes of 1ness in these African genocides.

But the NAZI stuff was different. The propaganda itself contains elements of 1ness that seemed rather clear to me. This does not prove Hitler was a 1, but that people behind the propaganda had a 1ish inspiration. Maybe Hitler was one of them. It's a sort of idealistic : "let's do everything to fix the situation and restore quality standards".

This reminds me of these words by Albert Camus
<< The ends justify the means
But what justify the ends ? >>

Maybe the NAZI soldiers and generals who committed the slaughters where neither 1s nor inspired by 1ness. No-one knows their personal motivation to kill, supposing they had personal motivations.

But the whole think was "packed up" in a 1ish decoration. Several elements I heard from the propaganda :
<< We all know it's hard to stand next to hundreds of dead bodies, but our soldiers have courageously stood with dignity >>
They talked about the slaughter of hundreds of Jews. The message is "it's hard to kill, it needs efforts and is emotionally difficult, but our glory and superiority is to overcome this". It's the message that this is self-sacrifice by the German soldiers. Self-sacrifice in the name of a higher purpose is a constant message of the NAZI system.

They also put together images of a perfect word where everything is under control and working well : houses have been built, streets have be cleaned (they don't mention the detail that hobos were "cleaned" as well). They give pictures of humble people living happily in simple clean place, grateful to the German Reich to have helped them get out of the chaos of misery and unemployment.

4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)

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Originally posted by quartz

In the unhealthy levels, every type has a kind of blindness about the ways that their actions run counter to their type's ideals. In the warped thinking of an unhealthy individual, "kill the Indian to save the man" isn't viewed as willingness to commit atrocities. It may be seen by such a person as tantamount to amputating a gangrenous limb to save the patient's life. In each type, if you take the noble-sounding ideals of the high-average and higher levels, then warp the perception and take them to a delusional extreme, you get behaviors that a person in the average and healthy ranges could never imagine themselves doing. If you look only at the endpoints of the continuum they may seem unrelated; but if you trace the mindset along its descent into unhealth, the bizarre connection becomes clear. No, no 1 would commit atrocities. The catch is that the 1 himself is defining the word "atrocity." It's a big catch.

Cultural upbringing also plays into what a person regards as atrocity. In one culture, "honor killings" of women whose ankles show is normal and accepted; in another, they are atrocities. To assume that everyone in every context, at every level of health, defines atrocities in the same way would be erroneous. The definition seems self-evident to you.... their point of view seems self-evident to them. I had one conversation with a 1 friend (in person) where the 1 was very upset over something much smaller than what we're discussing here, not violent or anything... but watching her struggle to grasp how the other person could honestly see nothing wrong with what they had done... it was eye opening for me. It relates to the 1 confusing their truth for Absolute (and fully objective) Truth. Other people's truth is as real and "right" to them as yours is to you. Not necessarily easy to hear, but then a lot of the most useful material in the E. is hard to hear.

P.S. Even if I'm right in saying the Indian schools were rooted in and/or aided by a 1-based mindset, it doesn't mean it implicitly rubs off on you. In case that helps. You aren't implicated by association with what unhealthy people do just because they happen to be the same type. Every type gets warped in the unhealthiest ranges. 9's probably the least obvious, but yeah you get some pretty rough [blocked] in most types at the bottom of the health ladder.

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Originally posted by whitelila

osama bin laden is often typed as a 1.

kill the infidels.

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Originally posted by emerald
Seems to me propaganda could be unhealthy 1ish, but not atrocities. I don't think 1s are a "means to an end" kind of group. Can't tolerate that degree of wrongness. Our kind of perfect world doesn't include stamping out those who are different. We might when unhealthy go so far as to judge them as ignorant or stupid or wrong or crazy or warped or blind but that wouldn't lead to hurting them, especially not physical attack, blood, maiming and death.

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Originally posted by emerald

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Originally posted by Stormy


"They [Unhealthy Ones] will argue that to save a village, it may be bombed into annihilation. To convert people to their religion, they may be sold into slavery. To protect the lives of unborn fetuses, the lives of adults may be taken."
- Riso and Hudson, 'Personality Types', pg.398

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I have only one Riso book, Understanding the Enneagram.. In that one he refers to "punitive retribution" at the unhealthiest level of One behavior. That sounds more like "pay back." But perhaps the passage you quoted are examples of the contradictory behavior (violation of one's own beliefs) that can occur when a One sinks into the abyss?

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Originally posted by May Hem

Stormy isnt that superego just in general though? I do not get how superego messages of 1 are opposed to superego 6 here

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http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php

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Originally posted by EMike583
Sounds like you're advocating moral relativism. I personally reject this stance and believe that moral truth can be discerned rationally, a priori.

I think you're also conflating 'is' and 'ought': that there is a society somewhere in the world that regards a given action as moral says precisely nothing about that action's status from a normative ethical viewpoint.

Cultural tolerance is fine, throwing out all standards is something else.

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