The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board
The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board
Home | Policy | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Public Enneagram Discussion Board
 Focused Enneagram Discussion
 6 courage
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

lovemyth
Member

USA
3643 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2013 :  8:43:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit lovemyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear

read that on a friend fb feed today and thought it might be useful on re: courage 6.

=============
"If you’re going through hell, keep going"

Susurration
Member

395 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2013 :  05:05:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Susurration's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"From Old French corage (French: courage), from Latin cor ("heart"). Distantly related to cardiac ("of the heart"), which is from Greek, but from the same Proto-Indo-European root".

The silence said it all.
Go to Top of Page

pork
Member

6500 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2013 :  5:13:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit pork's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lovemyth

Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear



And doing what needs to be done.

And cowardice is making that judgment but not taking action.

^(oo)^

4w3sw5w4ssw5w4sw6w5
7w6sw6w5ssw6w5sw5w4
8w9sw9w1ssw9w1sw1w2
Go to Top of Page

Susurration
Member

395 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2013 :  10:26:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Susurration's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This is the bravest thing I have ever heard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Awake



The silence said it all.
Go to Top of Page

lovemyth
Member

USA
3643 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2013 :  12:13:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit lovemyth's Homepage  Reply with Quote
you think maybe think she's a six susu?either way looks interesting.

=============
"If you’re going through hell, keep going"

Edited by - lovemyth on 19 Feb 2013 12:14:44 AM
Go to Top of Page

Kate
Member

6236 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2013 :  12:44:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Kate's Homepage  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by pork

And doing what needs to be done.





The way I see it playing out, it is not what needs to be done, in an objective sense. It seems purely what subjectively needs attention (connection to 3 and 9 maybe?). The needing to be done for a 6 is an inner judgment that is projected.



quote:
Originally posted by pork

And cowardice is making that judgment but not taking action.

^(oo)^

4w3sw5w4ssw5w4sw6w5
7w6sw6w5ssw6w5sw5w4
8w9sw9w1ssw9w1sw1w2





Right. The point of 6 lies precisely on the line, perched like a fence sitter, yet making judgments doing so. It is about that small space between. Bravery is getting off the fence.




Go to Top of Page

Susurration
Member

395 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2013 :  02:05:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit Susurration's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lovemyth

you think maybe think she's a six susu?either way looks interesting.

=============
"If you’re going through hell, keep going"



Her songs have themes that most people wouldn't dare put their names to. I think she's probably a 9 with a 6w7 fix. This album I could sense was very personal for her and to use all of her experiences to make something so beautiful and moving, I really respect. A lot of her themes revolve around watershedding moments and pushing herself on despite what happens. You can feel her growth, and along with that you sense the ownership over the creation as she produced it and it is her work through and through.

You could say that is phobic 6 and 9 like, but that level of sincerity, earnestness yet lightness... it commands both your attention and respect. It's a gift to even witness it. That's what something genuinely courageous feels like to me. A personal "triumph".

The silence said it all.
Go to Top of Page

shakti
Member

USA
11104 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2013 :  02:59:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote


Perhaps loving someone or something...can be a source of courage that is a transcendence of fear.

Being loved by someone or a community...perhaps a source of strength.

Then there's loyalty, duty, responsibility, and so on.
Go to Top of Page

dnimon
Member

Australia
6516 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  09:56:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit dnimon's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I more or less agree with Lao. Courage precedes bravery; bravery is the act, it requires courage. Iv'e never bought in to the six/courage idea. In the first place the term is taken and applied very broadly and loosely. which type is most courageous; which type least?

Depends i guess, on how how understand courage, how you understand fear and the given relationships between one and another, in regard to all kinds of activity and expression. the courage to love, the courage to risk, the courage to allow oneself joy, the courage to speak, to overcome the fears which life has brought us, the courage to bear pain, to live, to die.

It might be the courage to go public without makeup, the courage to speak in public, the courage to answer a question, or ask one. My observations of people marry with my musings about type; courage, bravery and fear address, adorn and envelope us all in different ways, in relation to different things. I don't see any difference of intensity or frequency from one person to another, from one type to another.

What i see is different relationships, different manifestations, different reactions to fear.........and sometimes amongst it all, i see courage.

As a "pinnup six child, according to those in the know, it might be good for me to bullet point what is courageous and cowardly in me.

courage

Very recently i feel the courage to love returning, for most of my life i have not been able to, and when i have i have paid quite a price for it. but what is life worth without love right.......only misery.

I have the courage to take chances and risks in life, career, path, with implementing ideas because i back myself, sometimes foolishly, but more often not.

i have the courage to try and live differently, not for the sake of being different, but in the belief that i might find a better way, in recognising the lack of meaning and point, of living life in the 9/5 have kids, get a house , retire and die model.

I have the courage to want to see the ugly parts of myself

I have the courage to stand having seen what resides there.

I have the courage to show myself, to speak with beautiful women, to allow them, and those i love as i am.

I have the courage to step into the unknown.

I have the courage to face poverty,

I have the courage to be alone, with myself.

i hae the courage to express myself, unless i am unhealthily attached.

i have the courage to push my body physically

i have the courage topersist in adversity.

i have the courage to trust myself

i have the courage to comit

I have courage that whatever happens, i will be okay

That i will always have sufficient.

i have the courage to make a spectacle, fool or draw attention to myself in public, through singing whistling, being extraverted and entertaining in public , even though i wagged school any time i had to speak in public at school and i was shy in my youth in many circumstances.

I have the courage not to care about what others might think in relation to many things.

Lack of courage

I lack the courage to smack people in the mouth, even when it is called for.

I lack the courage to face physical pain, even though i used to deal with it as a matter of course

I lack the courage to physically defend myself, i go catatonic.

I long lacked the courage to love.

i lack the courage to tell the truth, for fear of consequences, mostly in unhealthily attached relationships, but also as an immediate fear reaction to work stuff ups, partly through fear that my incompetence will be recognised. I wonder how many people really feel they know what they are doing when the unexpected arises at work.

I often lack the courage to ask for what i want.

I lack the courage to suffer in certain ways, almost all are physical in character.

I lack the courage not to justify myself, to bear slur

I lack the courage to accept certain kinds of responsibilities, mostly through my long time fear of loving.

I lack the courage to accept responsibility for hurting people sometimes, that is to bring emotional pain to people when it is unavoidable.

When i am unhealthily attached, i lack the courage to let go and bear emotional suffering, when i am healthily attached, and this has happened, i feel melancholy, bitter sweet, quite sweet and not especially bitter.

i lack the courage to live without hope.


i wonder what other peoples lists would look like?


If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you.
- Billy Wilder

Go to Top of Page

Glasgow
Member

Germany
7339 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  10:20:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Glasgow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dnimon
...but what is life worth without love right.......only misery.

...




i dont believe in love or religion etc.
though i enjoy my life.
so what ?

btw courage is the conscious overcoming of fears.

Go to Top of Page

skunk
Member

5983 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  12:24:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The way I understood it was that 6s were more exposed to the passion of fear in the Heart centre, from which the Head centre constructed and gave 'form' to that undefined passion through the workings of the imagination creating scenarios and things upon which to focus, rightly or wrongly. I may be wrog in that but it's how I came to understand it.

I read somewhere the idea of 'psychic poison' (Ichazo? Laleh Bakhtiar?). I don't know if it's the sense in which they meant it but I like the idea of a passion that poisons the heart. Fear permeates the heart of a 6, like water seeping through the soil, and with increasing fixation, fear is projected onto inappropriate circumstances as the intellectual centre attempts to give it form ~ something that the intellectual centre will do compulsively for an unhealthy 6 as they are the primary head triader. So to compare the courage (or cowardice) of a fixated 6 to someone who is not fixated at 6 is kind of a tricky matter because it's not necessarily a level playing field. Maybe that one could get a bit philosophical?

That's how I understand it but if anyone has better information from the Enneagramic literature then say so because it's better to get it right than to speculate.

Edited by - skunk on 07 Mar 2013 12:27:47 PM
Go to Top of Page

Glasgow
Member

Germany
7339 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  12:57:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Glasgow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
i have nightmares, so maby i have more fears in my subconscious than the most 6s.




Go to Top of Page

Glasgow
Member

Germany
7339 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  12:58:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Glasgow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
6s avoid feelings of fear by thinking about dangers.
so i wouldnt say that the head triad is the fear triad. i dont understand this wording after 22 years of knowing the enneagram.

Go to Top of Page

Glasgow
Member

Germany
7339 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  1:01:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Glasgow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
fear is more of a feeling in my eyes.
and this is beyond the enneagram patterns and types.
if i have a feeling of fear i cannot overcome this by thinking .
6s are able to do that.
so 6s are very courageous.


Edited by - Glasgow on 07 Mar 2013 1:02:13 PM
Go to Top of Page

dnimon
Member

Australia
6516 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  6:23:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit dnimon's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glasgow

fear is more of a feeling in my eyes.
and this is beyond the enneagram patterns and types.
if i have a feeling of fear i cannot overcome this by thinking .
6s are able to do that.
so 6s are very courageous.





Yup, i very much agree with this; fear is emotional in character' emotional reactions, esp strong ones are very difficult to overcome, especially when we are 'in them". In my experience i have found my thinking to be a useless tool in overcoming fear; i don't often feel anxiety, or depression, but when i do, i notice my "counter thinking" to be impotent and ineffective. Ive long had an idea that we need to set up a "two against one" scenario to overcome our emotional, or intellectual or physical impediments.

This imbalance seems effective, to put body and mind against emotional stress.......ie pamper the body and mind at the same time; alternatively, pit the mind and emotions against an uncooperative body. As a rule of thumb, emotional reactions/strong attitudes/feelings are very difficult to work against, very often impossible to counter with mere thoughts.....

In me; "head versus heart", heart wins........it's a no contest , like mike tyson versus a kindy kid.

If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you.
- Billy Wilder

Go to Top of Page

ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2361 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  6:48:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glasgow

fear is more of a feeling in my eyes.
and this is beyond the enneagram patterns and types.
if i have a feeling of fear i cannot overcome this by thinking .
6s are able to do that.
so 6s are very courageous.




No, the six just has the nine as his integration point.

Of course no one can get certainty by thinking. Philosophers and theologians end by believing in their axioms and dogmas. But that does not yield certainty. It is just a kind of giving up of the ego mind. Otherwise the ego might encounter some kind of inquisition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

But certainty implies having ones feet on the ground and really knowing things by deeply innerly acknowledged personal experience. And still believe there is more in this 9 world:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A10&version=NIV

Matthew 5:10:

quote:
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Ganglion
Go to Top of Page

ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2361 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2013 :  7:11:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Have you ever noticed the resemblance between the blessings and the enneagram?

Point 3 (deceiver) > 6 (rightness)
Point 4 mourning is evident
For Point 5 read Almaas (1) who wrote on it the Diamond series
Point 6 indeed looks for common justice (certainly 6w5 defenders).
Point 7 > 4 (not 5)
Point 8 >2 believe in the wholly truth of their beating heart.
Point 9 peacemaker is evident.

I Wonder why 1 (male) and 2 (female) are not explicitly mentioned? Maybe because we live in a dual world.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=NIV

5 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them.
The Beatitudes

He said:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Also notice that the empiricist and scientific genius Newton learned Hebrew to study the code of the bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_religious_views


Ganglion
Go to Top of Page

rockthrower
Member

Australia
3064 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2013 :  3:01:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit rockthrower's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't think courage is simply the domain of the hart

I thing courage is more likely to be the domain of emotion ...and courage can be equally resinate from all three the hart, the gut and the head

All three have a relationship with courage as all points have a relation ship with point 6.
Go to Top of Page

skunk
Member

5983 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2013 :  7:37:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Beatitudes have nothing to do with The Enneagram of personality. Just nipping that one in the bud.
Go to Top of Page

ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2361 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2013 :  8:17:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skunk

The Beatitudes have nothing to do with The Enneagram of personality. Just nipping that one in the bud.



So you think relations like this

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 associated with mourning
9 with peacekeepers

Do you think this is just accidental? Maybe you are right.But statistically seen it is not. With a hit rate much higher than expected.

Believing it is nonsense is the easy ego way to go. I determine my destiny. And not my relation to an invisible divine Lord which has knowledge beyond the realm that I can conceive/just mentally grasp.

Just try to be the director of your own life. But can your body, mind and soul always do this? Some day your path will struck. And you will wonder why.

The founders of the enneagram were mystics that had interested in religion. If you think religion cannot be relevant to the enneagram, you miss the spiritual (transformational) aspects of it and will most likely be a bad (self)typer.

Ganglion
Go to Top of Page

skunk
Member

5983 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2013 :  8:30:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I fully appreciate the mystical and "religious" roots of the Enneagram and find it ironic that it's now championed as pretty much anything but. Thanks for the heads up though.
Go to Top of Page

ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2361 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2013 :  8:42:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skunk

I fully appreciate the mystical and "religious" roots of the Enneagram and find it ironic that it's now championed as pretty much anything but. Thanks for the heads up though.



Okay, I am glad that you do not see it as just another stupid psychological typing system. As the spiritual enneagram really (in essence) seems to make sense.


Ganglion
Go to Top of Page

rockthrower
Member

Australia
3064 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  1:00:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit rockthrower's Homepage  Reply with Quote
6 courage


Quadrant A: allow the feeling of the emotion to be present.

Quadrant B: accept the feeling or emotion as being simply energy.

Quadrant C: love the feeling or emotion as not being separate from self.

Quadrant D: embrace the basic energy of self consciously.

Being at one (united) within, free of judgements that create a sense of separation transcends the fog of doubt, frees the 6's emotional awareness and increases a sense of well being.

Edited by - rockthrower on 09 Mar 2013 8:01:51 PM
Go to Top of Page

dnimon
Member

Australia
6516 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  8:20:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit dnimon's Homepage  Reply with Quote
he's the king, the messiah, the son of god!!

oh, so that's capricorn is it?


honestly ... i lolled

If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you.
- Billy Wilder

Go to Top of Page

ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2361 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  8:37:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skunk

The Beatitudes have nothing to do with The Enneagram of personality. Just nipping that one in the bud.



Thank you for your hint at Annie Besant.

THE ANCIENT WISDOM
http://hpb.narod.ru/AncientWisdom1.htm

She says here:
quote:
The Hebrew had his “schools of the prophets” and his Kabbalah, and in the exoteric books we find the accepted moral teachings :

quote:
Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord and who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart ; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, not sworn deceitfully (Ps. xxiv,3,4). What doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah,vi,8). The lip of truth shall be established for ever ; but a lying tongue is but for a moment (Prov. xii, 19). Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy home? when thou seest the naked that thou cover him, and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? (Isa. lviii,6,7).


The Christian teacher had His secret instructions for His disciples, (Matt. xiii, 10-17) – and He bade them:

quote:
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine (Matt. vii, 6).


For public teaching we may refer to the beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount and to such (Page 33) doctrines as :

quote:
I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you….Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect (Matt. v, 44-48). He that findeth his life shall lose it ; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it (x,39). Whoever shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven (xviii, 4). The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance ; against such there is no law (Gal., v, 22-23). Let us love one another ; for love is of God ; and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God ( I John iv, 7 )
.



As a theosophist she might also be aware of the not publicly told esoteric message of Jesus. Just like Kabbalists like Oscar Ichazo and Jesuits that became Enneagram coaches.

I became interested in Gnosis and the Gospel of Thomas via this historian of Christianity and Gnosticism.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Gilels+Quispel

Gilles Quispel 2012 [12h00]
0,334	0,012	0,000	8,838	0,071	0,000	20,176	0,582	0,001
19,852	0,001	0,000	0,321	0,058	0,000	9,579	0,000	0,000
0,344	4,682	1,541	0,849	0,269	0,043	0,043	0,389	0,115
0,115	0,058	0,000	7,505	0,019	0,000	0,877	0,226	0,000

Born on a 7w8 day and having 2w3 helper houses.
He died on a 4>1 day in Egypt.


Ganglion

Edited by - ganglion on 09 Mar 2013 8:48:08 PM
Go to Top of Page

dnimon
Member

Australia
6516 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2013 :  9:01:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit dnimon's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you…

always cracks me up this one; mainly in reference to Ouspensky's commentary concerning the inability for those of one conscious state of being to apply knowledge belonging to those of higher states of being. To be able to do this, apply this teaching, according to Ouspensky. we would need to be on the being level of an apostle,

he wrote, "this teaching is not for us, we cannot even love our friends"

it's true......lol

If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you.
- Billy Wilder

Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:

Return to Top

The Enneagram Institute is a Service Mark of Enneagram Personality Types, Inc.
All Images, Content and Layout Copyright The Enneagram Institute 1998-2014.

Gold Bar

Share | |

[Home] [Back to Top] [Free RHETI Sampler] [Free QUEST Test] [Full RHETI Enneagram Test] [QUEST–TAS Test] [IVQ Instincts Test] [The Enn. Cards–Sorts] [Interpreting Test Results] [Type Descriptions] [How the System Works] [Levels of Development] [The Traditional Enneagram] [Practical Applications] [Relationships—Type Combinations] [Personal Growth] [Enneagram & Spirituality] [Addictions & Type] [Business Resources] [Enneagram FAQs] [Articles & Interviews] [Discussion Board] [Free EnneaFeatures Viewer Download] [Free RHETI Sampler Download] [Free Materials] [Books & Resources] [Schedule] [Training Program] [Workshops] [Private Consultations] [About The Institute] [Institute Network] [Teachers & Referral Listing] [Guestbook] [Contact The Institute]

The Enneagram Institute Discussion Board © 2002-2014 The Enneagram Institute Go To Top Of Page
Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05