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shakti
Member

USA
11076 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  7:00:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well, you didn't have birth data, any sense for who these people were, their ages, assuming your model has 50% legitimacy even, yet you offered:

I think a type 5 panel today has little resemblance with the type fives of the 19th century. I expect you to have mostly encountered cp6w5 attachment types identifying with (type 3 defence) type five.

http://www.google.nl/search?q=identifying+enneagram


It's true that people can mistype as a generality, so that is not the issue, but what is the basis of the comment "I expect you to have mostly encountered cp6w5 attachment types identifying with (type 3 defence) type five."
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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  7:07:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shakti

It's true that people can mistype as a generality, so that is not the issue, but what is the basis of the comment "I expect you to have mostly encountered cp6w5 attachment types identifying with (type 3 defence) type five."



http://vissesh.home.xs4all.nl/mystiek/enneagram/extra/dayscores.pdf

Around 1914 (WW1) the rational and optimistic 5w4 Zeitgeist changed painfully to 4w5.


Edited by - ganglion on 19 May 2013 7:30:49 PM
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shakti
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USA
11076 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  7:39:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks ganglion. I will go ponder what exactly I was expecting from engaging you! Thanks for staying true to your form, it's good that some things in the world stay constant.
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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  8:07:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ganglion

[quote]Originally posted by shakti

Thanks ganglion. I will go ponder what exactly I was expecting from engaging you! Thanks for staying true to your form, it's good that some things in the world stay constant.



Shakti, I was reading today in Rupert Sheldrake's (8w7) The rebirth of nature in the Dutch Veluwe forests and I must admit that he (spend several years in India) and me (both were as Christians raised) learned a lot from Indian philosophy. As did most kallistics

http://www.google.nl/search?q=The+rebirth+of+nature+Sheldrake

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_us_the_biblical_meaning_of_number_8

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Glasgow
Member

Germany
7221 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  8:07:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Glasgow's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ganglion

My idea is that enneatypes tend to appear in generations. I know that this is not a pretty idea for your ego (as cp6 will score >> 8 for your DOB) and for most professional e-typers, but it is a hypothesis that can be easily tested by comparing the e-types of famous persons and your family members over time.

Ganglion



as you use another typology you have to use another board or create your own website instead of criticizing the typings on this board.

your typings are not accurate on the basis of the enneagram typology.
hence as this is an enneagram board youre a catastrophically badly typer.
fact is also youre making a laughing-stock of yourself on this board which reminds me of masochism.
the crowning of your odyssey is your defensive attitude as if the members are all aggressive and cp 6 on this board because they were not open for your astrology..






Edited by - Glasgow on 19 May 2013 8:14:28 PM
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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  8:18:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
But how can it be be that we often agree a lot on main type?

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28476

Was my typing just a to be neglected 1/9 chance stupid coincidence?

Or is something special happening here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

ganglion
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pork
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6198 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  8:43:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit pork's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I see astrology as an attempt to circumvent chaos, unpredictability, and personal involvement as a prerequisite for understanding by maintaining that everything can be known by studying star charts, a safe and less energy-draining alternative to the risk of direct involvement. Typing by astrology is in the same league as typing by photos, body language, facial structure, or forum posts in lieu of understanding gained by chaotic, hazardous personal involvement. These methods all serve the same fears. The fear is betrayed by the insistence that these methods must be more reliable, the assumed correlations closer to +1, than we can verify except by way of circular argument. Loose correlations are rebranded as absolutes in the mind because the mind is starving for the illusion of mastery and understanding that this rebranding provides. This thinking works on principles of faith and serves to allay a fear similar to that allayed by religion.

^(oo)^

SP/SX>SX/SO 4w3sw5w4ssw5w4sw6w5
SO/SP>SP/SX 7w6sw6w5ssw6w5sw5w4
SX/SO>SO/SP 8w9sw9w1ssw9w1sw1w2



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blackLight
Member

USA
6311 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:03:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit blackLight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dusty

quote:
Originally posted by bear

The way he does it. It's not like he comes up with a list of behaviors and attitudes that would cast doubt, he just says it like it's fact because of statistics that are at best 50% partially accurate.

Then his typing of anybody, not just Almaas, is "offensive" is it not?
I only used Almaas as an example because I remembered that one, but it does apply to all of his typings. In general I find the best word to describe his posts is rude. I experience it like, "we interrupt this program to bring you this."

I don't think newbies are so delicate as to be taken in by ganglion's nonsense. He clearly chooses to embrace stupidity, and that's annoying (not offensive imo) but harmless enough.
I think it is sometimes a very confusing experience to first show up here... barely knowing the E and everyone has various angles, it might not be so easy at first to sort through. I'm not dismissive of his methodology as its own thing, and I don't think he's stupid but single-minded. Harmless, but rude. Not willing to truly participate in discussions, but willing to interrupt them. In any event, a poor typer who isn't a poor typer as a result of not knowing his own type.


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blackLight
Member

USA
6311 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:06:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit blackLight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pork

I see astrology as an attempt to circumvent chaos, unpredictability, and personal involvement as a prerequisite for understanding by maintaining that everything can be known by studying star charts...

I see sub wings as doing the same... avoiding the experience of not-knowing by fixing specifics that are fundamentally dynamic.


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skunk
Member

5932 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:31:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I see subwings as like staellite TV channels: you flick through them mindlessly, each of them insignificant variations on an invention that was fundamentally remarkable in its innovation and value.




"Fakers only exist when no one requires evidence. Fakers can only exist where they sell to like minding people who support the positon where 'ok, I won't call you on your bull[blocked], if you won't call me on mine'."

Edited by - skunk on 19 May 2013 10:36:34 PM
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skunk
Member

5932 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:33:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Trifix. Enneagramic painting-by-numbers, where a process of elimination substitutes for creative instinct.




"Fakers only exist when no one requires evidence. Fakers can only exist where they sell to like minding people who support the positon where 'ok, I won't call you on your bull[blocked], if you won't call me on mine'."
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skunk
Member

5932 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:35:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Tritype. Trifix as joined-up-writing.




"Fakers only exist when no one requires evidence. Fakers can only exist where they sell to like minding people who support the positon where 'ok, I won't call you on your bull[blocked], if you won't call me on mine'."
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blackLight
Member

USA
6311 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:48:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit blackLight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
lol, well put. i especially like the tv channel analogy.


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pork
Member

6198 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2013 :  10:53:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit pork's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bear

I see sub wings as doing the same... avoiding the experience of not-knowing by fixing specifics that are fundamentally dynamic.



One of the most fascinating things about the Enneagram is that it corresponds to personality so organically and fluidly, it can pinpoint personality patterns at ever-increasing levels of magnification. This is the phenomenon of subtyping, which can be extended far beyond the point of usefulness.

But I think Enneagram quanta like Tritypes, subwings, and stack ranges have become popular mainly because people get confused when "type twins" are not dead ringers for each other. The "solution" is to subtype extensively enough to find the difference that explains the difference.

Subtyping can explain some of the radical differences between me and other 4s, for example, but before I was aware of the extent of subtyping that is currently used, I just took for granted that there was an enormous range of possible expression within one type.

^(oo)^

SP/SX>SX/SO 4w3sw5w4ssw5w4sw6w5
SO/SP>SP/SX 7w6sw6w5ssw6w5sw5w4
SX/SO>SO/SP 8w9sw9w1ssw9w1sw1w2




Edited by - pork on 19 May 2013 11:33:09 PM
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shakti
Member

USA
11076 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  04:16:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ganglion

If Buddha or Krishna came to me in a vision, and then I showed up in a Christian forum (because of my numinous experience) and translated the conversations for others citing Buddhist or Hindu sacred texts, it most likely will not serve the forum/community/understanding, even though there might be bits that do (as an exception). If I went to a Buddhist or Hindu community and tried to get validation for my personal numinous experience, that too may not work out too well though someone who has had their own visions might at least validate having of visions even if their experience was different or maybe they saw Christ or another being or something else.

Numinous experiences (and dreams, as well) are important, and the integration of those present unique challenges. Sometimes numinous experiences and dreams do lead to external changes in one's lived life (for example, Saul to Paul) and sometimes they don't. Even if you see your posts as being primarily about the offering of your sacred work, many of them seem to also have the side effect of contributing toward undermining learning how to type oneself or others by observing behaviors, trying to understand motivations, and the fixation/passions that drive us.

Edited by - shakti on 20 May 2013 05:00:43 AM
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ptypes
Member

6166 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  12:47:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit ptypes's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sunny

ptypes: Where did/does your information about E-types come from?

I'm genuinely curious because to me it seems like different people learn from different sources and build from there.

I read Maria Beesing et al (1984), The Enneagram, in 1986; and Don Riso (1987) Personality Types, in 1987. That's where "ptypes" came from.
quote:

Underneath all of that, there may be a real Enneagram or there may be different ones which identify different layers in people.

Someone will argue that a person looks like an 9...but then that person has defenses or attachment style of a 4...operates in the 5 realm and on and on.


I don't believe that there is a "real" enneagram.
quote:

The instinct theory attempts to explain some of this, but there is not much consensus, only lots of chiefs.


I don't believe in the instinct theory. To me it's just another way to cut up the pie.
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sappy
Member

1414 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  1:45:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit sappy's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Long live the cookie cutter typing. Where's Mike? He'd be pleased.
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sunny
Member

USA
11515 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  2:24:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit sunny's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I do like cookies though.

-----------------------
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shakti
Member

USA
11076 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  4:53:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When we take a fixed view of someone else's type we might be serving in the role of the 'petty tyrant' for them perhaps contributing inadvertently to their journey toward detachment. Losing attachment to some self-image that is ready to fall away with a little help (or what seems to be referred to as self-importance of the rotten kind below).

Excerpt from
http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/donjuan7.html

Seeing is a peculiar feeling of knowing, of knowing something without a shadow of doubt.

Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it--what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.
Every effort should be made to eradicate self-importance from the lives of warriors. Without self-importance we are invulnerable.
* * *
Self-importance can't be fought with niceties.
* * *
Seers are divided into two categories. Those who are willing to exercise self-restraint and can channel their activities toward pragmatic goals, which would benefit other seers and man in general, and those who don't care about self-restraint or about any pragmatic goals. The latter have failed to resolve the problem of self-importance.
Self-importance is not something simple and naive. On the one hand, it is the core of everything that is good in us, and on the other hand, the core of everything that is rotten. To get rid of the self-importance that is rotten requires a masterpiece of strategy.
In order to follow the path of knowledge one has to be very imaginative. In the path of knowledge nothing is as clear as we'd like it to be. Warriors fight self-importance as a matter of strategy, not principle.
Impeccability is nothing else but the proper use of energy. My statements have no inkling of morality. I've saved energy and that makes me impeccable. To understand this, you have to save enough energy yourself.
Warriors take strategic inventories. They list everything they do. Then they decide which of those things can be changed in order to allow themselves a respite, in terms of expending their energy.
The strategic inventory covers only behavioral patterns that are not essential to our survival and well-being.
In the strategic inventories of warriors, self-importance figures as the activity that consumes the greatest amount of energy, hence, their effort to eradicate it.
One of the first concerns of warriors is to free that energy in order to face the unknown with it. The action of rechanneling that energy is impeccability.
The most effective strategy for rechanneling that energy consists of six elements that interplay with one another. Five of them are called the attributes of warriorship: control, discipline, forbearance, timing, and will . They pertain to the world of the warrior who is fighting to lose self-importance. The sixth element, which is perhaps the most important of all, pertains to the outside world and is called the petty tyrant.
A petty tyrant is a tormentor. Someone who either holds the power of life and death over warriors or simply annoys them to distraction.
Petty tyrants teach us detachment. The ingredients of the new seers' strategy shows how efficient and clever is the device of using a petty tyrant. The strategy not only gets rid of self-importance; it also prepares warriors for the final realization that impeccability is the only thing that counts in the path of knowledge.
Usually, only four attributes are played. The fifth, will , is always saved for an ultimate confrontation, when warriors are facing the firing squad, so to speak.
Will belongs to another sphere, the unknown. The other four belong to the known, exactly where the petty tyrants are lodged. In fact, what turns human beings into petty tyrants is precisely the obsessive manipulation of the known.
The interplay of all the five attributes of warriorship is done only by seers who are also impeccable warriors and have mastery over will . Such an interplay is a supreme maneuver that cannot be performed on the daily human stage.
Four attributes are all that is needed to deal with the worst of petty tyrants, provided, of course, that a petty tyrant has been found. The petty tyrant is the outside element, the one we cannot control and the element that is perhaps the most important of them all. The warrior who stumbles on a petty tyrant is a lucky one. You're fortunate if you come upon one in your path, because if you don't you have to go out and look for one.
If seers can hold their own in facing petty tyrants, they can certainly face the unknown with impunity, and then they can even stand the presence of the unknowable.

Edited by - shakti on 20 May 2013 4:55:52 PM
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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  7:31:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glasgow

quote:
Originally posted by ganglion

My idea is that enneatypes tend to appear in generations. I know that this is not a pretty idea for your ego (as cp6 will score >> 8 for your DOB) and for most professional e-typers, but it is a hypothesis that can be easily tested by comparing the e-types of famous persons and your family members over time.

Ganglion



as you use another typology you have to use another board or create your own website instead of criticizing the typings on this board.

your typings are not accurate on the basis of the enneagram typology.
hence as this is an enneagram board youre a catastrophically badly typer.
fact is also youre making a laughing-stock of yourself on this board which reminds me of masochism.
the crowning of your odyssey is your defensive attitude as if the members are all aggressive and cp 6 on this board because they were not open for your astrology..






I created a website at:
http://vissesh.home.xs4all.nl/mystiek/enneagram/famous.html

Strange you never heard of it.

And with regards to your suggestion that I use another typology and so better leave this forum, I would ask you just to read the manual.

And for those who think I believe in astrology: I am very sceptical about it. As I don't expect planets to rule this world. So my method does not rely on astrological predictions.

But looking at the planets and stars as an ancient way of measuring cycles in time (remember: in the past people had no watches) does make sense to me. So I used the astrological method of measuring time and did statistics on it with unexpected (numinous) results.
That's all.


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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  7:54:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bear

The way he does it. It's not like he comes up with a list of behaviors and attitudes that would cast doubt, he just says it like it's fact because of statistics that are at best 50% partially accurate.



There has been a time I wanted to convince you with rational arguments.

Bruce Springsteen and typing other 6s
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3306
quote:
bear
Member

USA
5769 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2011 : 8:55:37 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit bear's Homepage Reply with Quote
I don't think the point is that he is not a perfectionist, it's that being a perfectionist does not necessarily mean being a 1. Many artists of many enneatypes are perfectionists. I consider myself a perfectionist when it comes to things I create, but I am not a 1.

As time goes on, I increasingly hate the words like peacemaker, helper, perfectionist because people get so literal with them and it leads to a lot of misunderstanding.

The superego think irregulus refers to is that 6s and 1s have a particularly strong relationship to their superegos - ones are identified with theirs, and it's very central their ego structure. 6s are often referred to as having an "inner committee" of competing superego messages. There can be some strong similarities between these two types. Prussian style social 6s seem a lot like 1s, sp1s seem a lot like 6s. This connects to triads that R/H have published a bit about - Hornevian and Freudian.
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21994

Bruce seems to be a six exemplar to me. Solidarity is the word that comes to mind when I think of him. A while back, someone posted about his walk in this video being a really good example of the way many 6w5s walk, and that struck me as dead on. There's something about it; like it's the walk of buddies or brothers. There's so much feeling of "we" in the guy.


But I got tired of it...

So I decided not to waste my time with dogmatic (everybody knows this) e-views but keep on doing my thing (just calculating) to have a larger database with more statical significance..

ganglion

Edited by - ganglion on 20 May 2013 7:59:45 PM
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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  8:31:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bruce Springsteen 2012
67,125	0,357	0,003	0,003	0,139	0,007	1,042	9,575	0,284
14,085	0,004	0,000	0,000	0,193	0,000	10,138	4,554	0,000
0,302	6,245	0,997	0,186	0,461	0,188	0,002	0,027	0,540
20,298	2,232	0,003	0,001	0,064	0,001	0,002	0,257	0,153

Bruce Springsteen (37/1) was born on a 1, 7 and 8 day (16/7)
with 1, 7 and 8 dynamics (16/7)
under 2 (and 3) houses (2 or 5)
yielding a 1w2 singer (3)

Maybe the "There's so much feeling of "we" in the guy." are his prominent 2 houses.

Ganglion


Edited by - ganglion on 20 May 2013 8:39:50 PM
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shakti
Member

USA
11076 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  8:47:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit shakti's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ganglion

So I used the astrological method of measuring time and did statistics on it with unexpected (numinous) results.
That's all.






In my view, it's like a dream that has immense significance for the dreamer that may not necessarily have much to offer to someone else. Even so, to a degree, it's your right to pursue it as you wish, and it's a continuing opportunity for me to discover how detached I am not.

I absolutely don't have an issue with you holding court in a few threads on the Chat Lounge, where there is some background on the game you like to play. It is the interjection of your astroenneatyping typing all over the Board that to me seems like a low quality way of getting attention through being annoying, but for you it is a way to share your insights or findings.

Personally, I honor numinous experiences but I also believe that they are capable of possessing the ego, especially if one doesn't find a way to hold or allow through that much archetypal energetic charge. I haven't read this article in detail yet, but I think it covers ego possession from numinous experiences. In my view, you waste/dishonor your own energy and insights through the approach you are currently taking to sharing your views on the Board.
http://www.murraystein.com/articles.html

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ganglion
Member

Netherlands
2330 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  9:12:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit ganglion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shakti

quote:
Originally posted by ganglion

So I used the astrological method of measuring time and did statistics on it with unexpected (numinous) results.
That's all.




In my view, it's like a dream that has immense significance for the dreamer that may not necessarily have much to offer to someone else. Even so, to a degree, it's your right to pursue it as you wish, and it's a continuing opportunity for me to discover how detached I am not.

I absolutely don't have an issue with you holding court in a few threads on the Chat Lounge, where there is some background on the game you like to play. It is the interjection of your astroenneatyping typing all over the Board that to me seems like a low quality way of getting attention through being annoying, but for you it is a way to share your insights or findings.

Personally, I honor numinous experiences but I also believe that they are capable of possessing the ego, especially if one doesn't find a way to hold or allow through that much archetypal energetic charge. I haven't read this article in detail yet, but I think it covers ego possession from numinous experiences. In my view, you waste/dishonor your own energy and insights through the approach you are currently taking to sharing your views on the Board.
http://www.murraystein.com/articles.html





A dream cannot be reproduced, but what I did was well described and can be repeated by everyone who is interested in it.
Actually I stood open to the few mathematicians on this forum to share the data and methodology on it.

I agree with you that offering spirituality is often throwing pearls before the swines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearls_before_swine
quote:

"Pearls before swine" and "casting pearls" refer to a quotation from Matthew 7:6 in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount, implying that you should not put what is valuable in front of those who will reject the notion that it has value and furthermore that they will seek to diminish or destroy what you offer.

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

"Nolite dare sanctum canibus, neque mittatis margaritas vestras ante porcos, ne forte conculcent eas pedibus suis, et conversi disrumptam vos"


But if you want to find hints to the pearl of wisdom anywhere:

http://www.google.nl/search?q=sufi+pearl

it should be on this forum.


Edited by - ganglion on 20 May 2013 9:16:30 PM
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ptypes
Member

6166 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2013 :  9:19:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit ptypes's Homepage  Reply with Quote
ganglion, what is your type? The way that you make yourself the center of attention of so many threads (though I haven't followed them) is remarkable.

Edited by - ptypes on 20 May 2013 9:20:53 PM
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