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deras
Member
USA
2964 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 10:05:57 AM
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as far as the western enneagram, naranjo is the most intelligent theorist in my opinion. if anyone disagrees, i would be curious to know what enneagram author they find more insightful and intelligent (and if you have not read naranjo you can't exactly comment on who is more intelligent than him).
anyway, naranjo summarizes the type 4 variants as follows
so - shameful guilty
sx - angry hateful
sp - depressed
i think that fits very well with my variant scheme - SO being essentially twoish in motivation, i.e. desiring the acceptance of everyone, SX being 8ish in motivation, desiring control over others, and SP fivish in motivation, desiring independence/detachment. overall, showing the variant system to be a reflection of overall enneagram instinctual motivation.
main type 4 for all variants have a fixation on the knowledge of what is attractive and unattractive because they feel rejected in one way or another. you could say that is their dialect, the language they speak. they look at things and themself and think in terms of how attractive or unattractive they are, sort of like how a six thinks about people in terms of who has power and who does not. the fixation is a very mental one (for 4,5, and 6s), whereas for other types behavioral preference is more related to physical behavior (helping, fighting, achieving, etc.)
variant reflects the behavioral tone or manner in which any type expresses their conscious fixation. in the case of the four, how they express their attractive/unattractive fixation.
the SO four feels shame when not attractive enough, or guilty when attractive (because they are concerned with acceptance). the SP four who is the most self focused and withdrawn, is depressed when feeling unattractive or silently confident when attractive (holding their pain in or holding their confidendece in because their motivation is one of independence from others). the SX four when feeling unattractive is angry and hateful, when feeling attractive they are risque and suggestive - in either scenario they are trying to control their physical environment with their confidence (feelings of attractivness) or dissapointment (feeling of rejection).
the film the shape of things (which is not very good) still presents an extreme but apt example of the sexual variant four using fourish behavior to dominate her environment.
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http://sminds.com/info.html |
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deras
Member
USA
2964 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 10:28:56 AM
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i just want to minimize brazen non relevant statements from people who have not read the author in question.
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 11:54:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by deras
anyway, naranjo summarizes the type 4 variants as follows
so - shameful guilty
sx - angry hateful
sp - depressed
This doesn't seem to be in Character and Neurosis, nor in Ennea-Type Structures. From what text did you get this?
Ewald (5)
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deras
Member
USA
2964 Posts |
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 12:36:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by deras
its in charachter and neurosis.
I think I did quite a thorough search, by scanning the pages from the discussion on ennea-type IV and searching in that electronic text. Nothing on "social," "sexual" or "preservation" turned up that had anything to do with variants.
What page numbers is this?
Ewald (5)
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fulleclipse
Member
2040 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 12:37:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by deras
anyway, naranjo summarizes the type 4 variants as follows
so - shameful guilty
sx - angry hateful
sp - depressed
i think that fits very well with my variant scheme - SO being essentially twoish in motivation, i.e. desiring the acceptance of everyone, SX being 8ish in motivation, desiring control over others, and SP fivish in motivation, desiring independence/detachment. overall, showing the variant system to be a reflection of overall enneagram instinctual motivation.
deras --- there's no logic in what you've said there. you are arbitrarily assigning irrelevant motivations to the variants.
Erik --- 10w4 sp/sx --- INFX |
Edited by - fulleclipse on 13 Dec 2003 12:39:19 PM |
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pork
Member
USA
3089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 12:55:03 PM
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The only Naranjo book I have that discusses the instinctual variants of the Four is Transformation Through Insight. If you're using a different text with perhaps alternative insights, you might quote a bit from it. For now, I'll use Transformation as the basis for my comments.
(UPDATE: Deras has pointed out a passing reference to the E4 variants in Character and Neurosis, which does imply that "depressed" can typify Self-Pres Four. Following is my summary of the alternative view of the Self-Pres Four in Naranjo's other book.)
I'm not quite sure that the term "depressed" would accurately summarize Naranjo's description of the Self-Pres Four. Rather, he writes that this type-variant is characteristically obsessive, and he uses Tolstoy and T.E. Lawrence as examples. The former, according to Naranjo, was given to "self-recrimination" like a person at "the high side of E1" (both quotes are Naranjo's), and when Lawrence lost the manuscript of his biography, he was remarkably undaunted, and rewrote the entire thing from scratch.
I would not disagree that Naranjo is perhaps the most perceptive of the Enneagram authors, though Palmer, Riso, and Condon have expanded usefully upon the range of Naranjo's insights, if not always lending a comparable depth to their additions.
^(oo)^ |
Edited by - pork on 13 Dec 2003 1:14:04 PM |
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deras
Member
USA
2964 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 12:58:10 PM
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page 105...
naranjo points out the correlation between the three subtypes and Grinker's cluster analysis of the borderline population.
"I can recognize in three of the resulting clusters the three subtypes of ennea-type 4 in protoanaylsis: the angry hateful, the shameful guilty, and the depressed."
there is also some pretty good variant round table discussions (with people trained by naranjo) in enneagramtypes in psychotherapy (edited by naranjo) where the above themes are evident. the idea that social variants are the least likely to be hostile (in outward expression) is very clear in the roundtables. "lose to win later" "seduce with kindness" - these are the from the social variant four roundtable.
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http://sminds.com/info.html |
Edited by - deras on 13 Dec 2003 1:48:48 PM |
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 1:22:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by deras
page 105...
... the three subtypes of ennea-type 4 in protoanaylsis: the angry hateful, the shameful guilty, and the depressed."
OK, so they are Ichazo's (from protoanalysis).
I'd say that Riso & Hudson have this worked out a little more in "The Wisdom of the Enneagram."
Ewald (5)
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deras
Member
USA
2964 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 1:38:06 PM
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ewald - do you think riso is as intelligent as naranjo, in your opinion?
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 1:49:25 PM
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I think Riso has other talents than Naranjo. I don't think it makes much sense to make a comparison in terms of intelligence. Naranjo has done another part of the job of working on the enneagram as Riso.
Perhaps you're trying to establish who has more authority? Generally speaking the people that come later in a path have the advantage of being able to use improvements that the initiator wasn't aware of.
Ewald (5)
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carlos
Member
3563 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 1:59:10 PM
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deras, i think the question you should be asking is, is naranjo superior to deras in his understanding of this subject, and if so, why? since the answer is undoubtedly yes, i would be interested to see what you think you could do to help yourself achieve the same level of insight as naranjo (i'll give you a hint: it doesn't include statistical research)
the idea that what you have written above is comparable in any way with what naranjo has to say about 4's in "character and neurosis" is so absurd that it makes me want to get my new scanner out and post huge chunks of his chapter on the subject. you're trying to run and you don't even know how to crawl yet.
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Edited by - carlos on 13 Dec 2003 2:59:25 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 1:59:37 PM
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Fwiw, I agree with Riso's own self-asessment that his greatest contributionn to the Enneagram of personality was seeing the enneatypes in terms of levels of health. Naranjo is clearly brilliant, but I simply don't relate to the portrait of the schizoid Five. Fixations might well be neurotic, but they clearly do admit of degrees. Had it not been for the work of later authors, such as Palmer and Riso/Hudson, I wouldn't have found the Enneagram at all, but had I found it, I wouldn't have found it of much use.
I don't know that Naranjo has written much on the variants that goes beyond Ichazo, but I understand that he is going to give a seminar on the variants this summer at the IEA. I'm thinking of going. |
Edited by - marie on 13 Dec 2003 2:01:52 PM |
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:04:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by deras
so - shameful guilty
sx - angry hateful
sp - depressed
i think that fits very well with my variant scheme - SO being essentially twoish in motivation, i.e. desiring the acceptance of everyone, SX being 8ish in motivation, desiring control over others, and SP fivish in motivation, desiring independence/detachment. overall, showing the variant system to be a reflection of overall enneagram instinctual motivation.
Shameful guilt is not really something Twoish. Naranjo doesn't mention shame nor guilt for Twos. As for desiring acceptance, why not Threes?
Although at first sight angry hate seems Eightish, Eights aren't really angry out of hate, but for control. Hate and control are not the same thing. I noticed that Naranjo does attribute angry hate to Sixes, in the chapter on Eights.
Although depression seems a Five issue, it's definitely a Four issue as well.
Note that I'm not acknowledging that your system of calculating variants by using type-scores has merit, here. What you're doing is using similarities between type and variant. These are precisely that: similarities. If you achieve any succes in correctly attributing variants to enneagram test results (and I have seen no indication of that), it will always be partial.
Your system is at best an approximation. Using separate test question sets for establishing enneagram type and variant will anyhow have more potential of good accuracy.
Ewald (5)
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:07:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
(i'll give you a hint: it doesn't include statistical research)
I don't think that's true, actually, as Naranjo does make some references to breakthroughs in statistical analysis of test results.
Ewald (5)
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carlos
Member
3563 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:14:40 PM
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well, i don't agree with riso's levels of health theory because it's too linear and he doesn't know what the hell "health" is, he's just making [offensive term] up based on his own naive ideas.
i think what riso adds is a gift for character sketches that are almost literary in the way he presents them. you can really "see" the person he's describing with all the details. of course, it doesn't mean he really understands the subject, just that he can "See" the types and convey that sight to you.
palmer and naranjo are better at breaking it down into the important patterns and motivations. but naranjo is overly-obsessed with a pyschopathological interpretation of the "types" and that skews his interpretations sometimes. palmer is too minimalistic.
personally i prefer minimalism, though, especially when it's based on certain psychological key features.
but basically, i think the enneagram has a lot of second-rate "champions".
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carlos
Member
3563 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:16:18 PM
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ewald, if you think deras needs to focus more on statistical analysis in order to achieve the level of someone like naranjo, you're living in a bubble.
deras could look at statistics for the rest of his life and with his warped mind and personality he wouldn't be able to see anything except his own bias. |
Edited by - carlos on 13 Dec 2003 2:19:27 PM |
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deras
Member
USA
2964 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:19:29 PM
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well it's been many years since freud and most experts still don't understand a lot of his ideas. they may research them, put some of them in simpler words to explain to the public, or argue against them but few, if any thinkers, have come up with ideas that surpass him.
i would say riso is a populizer/simplifier/marketer of some enneagram ideas more than a thinker or researcher. in so far as the enneagram is still undeveloped and flawed in its lack of an empirical foundation, popularizing it seems to make more sense from a captilist perspective than an intellectual one. how much money does EI spend on research per year? if it's not much, then they are basically salesmen not intellectuals, and their work probably reflects that. freud did not sell as many books as some unsuccessful novelists but he still represents the extreme vanguard of progressive ideas.
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:19:56 PM
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Carlos - I don't believe Deras is capable of getting to the level of Naranjo, but I think you already know that. However, statistics does play an important role in Naranjo's work, which you seemed to deny.
Ewald (5)
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Edited by - Ewald on 13 Dec 2003 2:20:34 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:20:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
well, i don't agree with riso's levels of health theory because it's too linear and he doesn't know what the hell "health" is,
but naranjo is overly-obsessed with a pyschopathological interpretation of the "types" and that skews his interpretations sometimes. palmer is too minimalistic.
I guess I don't agree literally with Riso's levels of health, but I do agree that the fundamental fixation admits of a variety of different expressions some of which are much healthier than others. I also agree that there are "shock points."
In any even, Naranjo's obsession with a "psychopathological interpretation," is exactly the problem I was pointing to. |
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carlos
Member
3563 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:21:11 PM
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| freud doesn't represent the vanguard of ideas anymore... freud is completely outdated. what the [offensive term] are you talking about? |
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Ewald
Member
Netherlands
2531 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:22:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by halber mensch
claudio naranjo looks sinister ... like a south american drug lord or something.
Maybe he was, lol. I've read "The Healing Journey," where he discusses various psychoactive substances in psychotherapeutic settings.
Ewald (5)
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carlos
Member
3563 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:23:18 PM
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| deras is completely capable of going beyond naranjo's level if he would do some work on himself using the enneagram before trying to do work on the enneagram using himself. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:23:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
ewald, if you think deras needs to focus more on statistical analysis in order to achieve the level of someone like naranjo, you're living in a bubble.
deras could look at statistics for the rest of his life and with his warped mind and personality he wouldn't be able to see anything except his own bias.
I think the fundamental insights into character are always intuitive, a quality of higher mind, if you will. Even research programs designed to give rise to statistical analysis must, if they are to be successful, be based ultimately on intuitive insight into character, something that Naranjo excelled at. |
Edited by - marie on 13 Dec 2003 2:27:11 PM |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:26:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by carlos
deras is completely capable of going beyond naranjo's level if he would do some work on himself using the enneagram before trying to do work on the enneagram using himself.
In his next incarnation maybe. |
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marie
Member
4292 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2003 : 2:28:51 PM
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| Wasn't his drug of choice Ayahuasca? I don't think pot is sufficiently hallucinogenic. |
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variants and naranjo
