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Red
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27 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 6:46:49 PM
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Id
id-dominated types have trouble with instincts. Types 4,5,9 (Personality Types, pg 451)
Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology </cf_0/g2699/mag.jhtml>
Sigmund Freud believed that human personality consisted of three components: the id, the ego, and the superego. The id is the part of the personality that includes such basic biological impulses or drives as eating, drinking, eliminating wastes, avoiding pain, attaining sexual pleasure, and aggression. The id operates on the "pleasure principle," seeking to satisfy these basic urges immediately with no regard to consequences. Only when tempered through interaction with the ego (reality) and superego (conscience) does the id conform to what is considered socially acceptable behavior.
According to Freud, anxiety is caused by the conflict between the id's powerful impulses and the modifying forces of the ego and superego. The more id-driven impulses are stifled through physical reality or societal norms, the greater the level of anxiety. People express their anxiety in various ways, including nervousness, displaced aggression, and serious anxiety disorders. Healthy personalities are those that have learned to balance the id, ego and superego forces.
Ego
Ego dominated types have problems with feeling - types 3,7,8 (Personality Types, pg 451)
Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology </cf_0/g2699/mag.jhtml>
Sigmund Freud believed that human personality has three components: the id, the ego and the superego. In his scheme, the id urges immediate action on such basic needs as eating, drinking, and eliminating wastes without regard to consequences. The ego is that portion of the personality that imposes realistic limitations on such behavior. It decides whether id-motivated behavior is appropriate, given the prevailing social and environmental conditions.
While the id operates on the "pleasure principle," the ego uses the "reality principle" to determine whether to satisfy or delay fulfilling the id's demands. The ego considers the consequences of actions to modify the powerful drives of the id. A person's own concept of what is acceptable determines the ego's decisions. The ego also must "negotiate" with the superego (conscience) in the often bitter battle between the id's drives and a person's own sense of right and wrong. Repression and anxiety may result when the ego consistently overrides the id's extreme demands.
Superego
Superego dominated types have problems with thinking - types 1,2,6 Personality Types, pg 451)
Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology </cf_0/g2699/mag.jhtml>
The superego is one of three basic components of human personality, according to Sigmund Freud. The id is the most primitive, consisting of largely unconscious biological impulses. The ego uses reality and its consequences to modify the behavior being urged by the id. The superego judges actions as right or wrong based on the person's internal value system.
Freud believed that a child develops the superego by storing up the moral standards learned from experience in society and from parents and other adults. When a parent scolds a child for hitting another child, for example, the child learns that such aggression is unacceptable. Stored in that child's superego, or conscience, is that moral judgment which will be used in determining future behavior.
Another component of the superego is a person's own concept of perfect behavior, which presents a second standard used to govern actions.
The complex interaction among the id, the ego, and the superego is what determines human behavior, according to Freud. A healthy balance between the more instinctual demands of the id and the moral demands of the superego, as negotiated by the ego, results in a "normal" or healthy personality.
Red
istj sp6w5
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12791 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 8:54:44 PM
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so the id is the lizard.
*Don't be afraid to learn*
cp6w7sx/sp |
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Burger Chef
Member
219 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 12:26:44 AM
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| The lizard king. |
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entre1
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4440 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 01:13:17 AM
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| Dr Connors from Spiderman |
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Laurie
Member
1587 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 07:32:36 AM
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Have you got the ego and id types mixed up. I would have thought that the 7 and 8 especially respond to their basic needs and over indulge their id while the 4 and 5 would have issues with ego and over indulge the ego. I can't comment on the 3 and 9, except perhaps I can see that the 9 wanting to merge with others for a identity needs a healthy ego more than anything else; and the 3 wants to be more than they actually are and therefore would have an overactive ego. I agree withe superego belonging to the 1,2 and 6 types who suffer from over active consciences.
Laurie 1w2 ENTJ |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
12791 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 10:02:18 AM
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Freud's concepts of ego was a tool to decompose our motivations to understand personalities.
The ego was the visible part of our personalities.
While the id was our biological motivations, or sort of our(lizard brain) hypothalamus; the part of the brain that controls the four F's; feeding, fighting, fleeing or..mating.
And the super-ego was our conscience (with our good and bad voices), combined with our own world-view of what our ideal behavior would be.
A person was made up of the balances of those parts of their personality. And through different balances, and which parts were in control, would result in different behaviors and different degrees of wisdom.
*Don't be afraid to learn*
cp6w7sx/sp |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Apr 2004 10:02:57 AM |
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lilalove
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Haiti
12791 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 10:09:52 AM
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So I think 2, 3, & 4 type would be ego.
6, 7, and 8 seem to be id. (6 fight/flight issues, 7 and 8 excess issues)
*Don't be afraid to learn*
cp6w7sx/sp |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Apr 2004 10:10:17 AM |
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lilalove
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Haiti
12791 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 10:14:26 AM
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hmmm the 8 Eight is often righteous and strong voiced in its views so maybe that is an id/superego balance issue...
Balance issue?
8 type: Big id and Big superego = ego
9 type: Small id and medium superego = ego
1 type: Small id and Big superego = ego
i'm just thinking out loud lol this may all be bs
*Don't be afraid to learn*
cp6w7sx/sp |
Edited by - lilalove on 28 Apr 2004 10:33:42 AM |
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Red
Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 5:12:54 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Laurie
Have you got the ego and id types mixed up?
It's all there in R & H's book 'Personality Types.' Remember it is said that the types have 'problems' in those respective areas.
Those who have problems with their id 4,5,9 are also the withdrawn triad.
Those who have problems with their egos 3,7,8 are also the aggressive triad.
Those who have problems with their superegos are also the compliant compliant.
So I wondered if the types would see this problem in themselves and also if knowing about these three triads might help with self-typing
Red
istj sp6w5
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Laurie
Member
1587 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 07:22:24 AM
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Red,
I have dug out the Riso book I have on Personality types (1987)and there is a distinction between one group being dominated by one of the ego/superegos/id and another grouping corresponding to the triads of doing, feeling and relating which have a core problem with one of the egos/superegos/id. This latter grouping is distinct because in this triad, te ego/superego/id are underdone, overdone or out of touch - different problems but with the same component.
The way you have described it is the former grouping ie which types are dominated by which state and unless Riso and Hudson have changed their minds since 1987, my book says that the 3, 7 and 8 are dominated by their id and the 4, 5 and 9 are dominated by their ego This is in contrast to what you have quoted. This also makes some sense to me because I can see that the 7 and 8 especially are id dominant and that the 4's and 5's are ego dominated. As I have previously said, I am not sure about the 3 and 9 which I see as a 3 having a more dominate ego and the 9 having a more dominant id.
Laurie 1w2 ENTJ |
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Red
Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 6:57:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie
Red,
I have dug out the Riso book I have on Personality types (1987)and there is a distinction between one group being dominated by one of the ego/superegos/id and another grouping corresponding to the triads of doing, feeling and relating which have a core problem with one of the egos/superegos/id. This latter grouping is distinct because in this triad, te ego/superego/id are underdone, overdone or out of touch - different problems but with the same component.
The way you have described it is the former grouping ie which types are dominated by which state and unless Riso and Hudson have changed their minds since 1987, my book says that the 3, 7 and 8 are dominated by their id and the 4, 5 and 9 are dominated by their ego This is in contrast to what you have quoted. This also makes some sense to me because I can see that the 7 and 8 especially are id dominant and that the 4's and 5's are ego dominated. As I have previously said, I am not sure about the 3 and 9 which I see as a 3 having a more dominate ego and the 9 having a more dominant id.
Laurie 1w2 ENTJ
______________________________________________________________________
Page 440 of Personality Types, Revised Edition, shows a diagram, listed as follows: Structural Concepts and the Enneagram
8 - Ego (aggressive)
9 - id (withdrawn)
1 - superego (compliant)
2 - superego (compliant)
3 - ego (aggressive)
4 - id (withdrawn)
5 - id (withdrawn)
6 - superego (compliant)
7 - ego (agressive)
4,5,9 are all 'withdrawn' from the direct expression of their id impulses and especially their ability to assert themselves in the environment.
1,2,6 are all 'compliant' to an internalization of someone or something in their superegos which exerts a dominant influence in their behaviour.
3,7,8 are all aggressive, that is, they respond to challenges and threats by expanding and asserting their egos in the environment.
Red
istj sp6w5
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Red
Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 07:07:41 AM
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Hi Laurie:
I tend to learn by taking what people are questioning and doing some research to find out more about it. So I'm not ignoring your questions at all and in fact I'm glad you're interested. I put this stuff together from pages 441 to 447 of R & H's Personality Types. Although I've claimed the E6 position, I can't identify with the "committee" thing and actually consider myself to be a free thinker. Does the One stuff fit for you?
Page 440 of Personality Types, Revised Edition, shows a diagram, listed as follows: Structural Concepts and the Enneagram
Instinctive Triad
8 - Ego (aggressive)
9 - id (withdrawn)
1 - superego (compliant)
Feeling Triad
2 - superego (compliant)
3 - ego (aggressive)
4 - id (withdrawn)
Thinking Triad
5 - id (withdrawn)
6 - superego (compliant)
7 - ego (agressive)
4,5,9 are all 'withdrawn' from the direct expression of their id impulses and especially their ability to assert themselves in the environment.
Fours by dissociating from reality through their imaginations. Fours underexpress their feelings, revealing themselves through some form of art or aesthetic living.
Fives by dissociating from reality through their all-engrossing thought processes. Fives overexpress their capacity for thought, imagination and conceptualization.
Nines by dissociating from reality through an intense idealization or identification with the other. Nines are the most out of touch with their instinctive drives, fearing that the intensity of them would destroy the inner calm and equilibrium they are trying to maintain
1,2,6 are all 'compliant' to an internalization of someone or something in their superegos which exerts a dominant influence in their behaviour.
Ones are compliant to their idealistic obligations which are impressed on them by their superegos (the inner judge). Ones underexpress their instinctive drives, sublimating them instead to an ideal which they constantly strive to attain.
Twos are compliant to the demand of their superegos that they always be loving (the inner martyr. Twos overexpress their feelings, emphasizing only their positive emotions while repressing their negative ones.
Sixes are compliant to various authority figures they have internalized through their superegos (the inner committee). Sixes are most out of touch with their ability to think for themselves, not trusting their own ability to know and decide things without the reassurance of an authoritive framework of thought, or at least a "second opinion".
3,7,8 are all aggressive, that is, they respond to challenges and threats by expanding and asserting their egos in the environment.
Threes are aggressive (competitive) and assert their self-image while comparing it with that of others. Threes are most out of touch with their feelings, projecting an image to others as a substitute.
Sevens are aggressive (acquisitive) toward their environment, from which they try to obtain more satisfaction for themselves. Sevens underexpress their abilityto think, by not completing or following through with an idea before being captivated by another one. Also, the thinking of Sevens is stimulated by, and to some degree dependent on, what they want to do.
Eights are aggressive (self-assertive) towards their environment, constantly trying to project themselves in the environment, so that it will become a reflection of their egos. Eights overexpress their instinctive drives, asserting themselves and their needs against the environment. Their instincts are unrestrained, and lead quickly to actions.
Red
istj sp6w5
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n/a
deleted
2573 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 12:51:12 AM
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I tend to look at it like this (and it's just my own way of looking at it, don't need to agree or disagree here..)
I look at ID as who a person really is. I look at ego as what a person is like with friends. Superego with the way we are with everyday communication like work relations that aren't on friendship ego level and your basic communication with the cashier, telemarketer, next door neighbor - public relations.
So, with me, my parents didn't bond with me. They didn't bond ID to ID they bonded with their ego with me. Infact, the only time I ever felt ID bond with my mom is when I was sick. I would actually pretend I was sick so I could have ID bond with her. My dad, never really happened. I remember once when an ambulance came to pick me up because I was very sick and he was with me and some kind of ID bond happened but this was the only time. ID = love, Ego = trust, Superego = PR.
I notice in correlation to ennea type, when I look at things this way I can see somethings more clearly for myself.
Just my interpretation, not going on anything other then my own pea brain.
Dee - 4w3 sx/sp/so INFP
SSS/Merc Capricorn moon/Libra rising ()
"Truly, truly I say to you. I am the one who sent me!" -John
"A candle loses none of its light by lighting another candle."
Author:Unknown (known ;) )
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Edited by - n/a on 02 May 2004 12:51:41 AM |
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carlos
Member
3768 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 06:02:18 AM
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quote:
not going on anything other then my own pea brain
you know, dee, i can't understand how a person can believe that they're stupid and yet be so opinionated. explain this to me.
love,
carlos the unhealthy 5
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Laurie
Member
1587 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 07:58:04 AM
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Red,
I am surprised if that diagram was in the Riso and Hudson book and wonder if it is a mistake. I think the key word for associating with either the id, ego or superego is "dominating". In your examples from Riso and Hudson, the statement
"4,5,9 are all 'withdrawn' from the direct expression of their id impulses and especially their ability to assert themselves in the environment."
does not suggest that the 4, 5 or 9 is dominated by their id; problems with their id maybe but certainly not dominated by it. On the other hand, I can easily see that the 7 and 8 are dominated by their id. I interpret dominant as the part that is most expressed. It fits well with the superego types 1,2 and 6 and fits with Riso's earlier book of Personality Types 1987 which apparently differs from Riso and Hudson according to what you have read. I can see the 4 and 5 dominated by their ego but certainly not their id.
Doesn't that make more sense to you?
I also have problems with the statements that the superego types have problems with thinking. As a 1, I would have more problems with my id which does not translate into problems with thinking I would have thought. Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the concept but if so, one thing remains and that is the difference in views from Riso's earlier book and that of Riso and Hudson. They both can't be right.
Laurie 1w2 ENTJ
Laurie 1w2 |
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n/a
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2573 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 09:09:02 AM
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| Carlos, I like deciphering things so I understand. Some may see it as a handicap, it's not. I'd rather be the one to point out the fact that I have a pea brain, keeps my reactivity low if someone picks on me by being pretentious. Just going on my own history in here, my experience. |
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Red
Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 10:11:31 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Laurie
Red,
I am surprised if that diagram was in the Riso and Hudson book and wonder if it is a mistake. I think the key word for associating with either the id, ego or superego is "dominating".
Ok, I think I see what you are saying - nice observation! What they say is this :
1) "Each Triad is dominated by one of the three Freudian categories of the mind, which is why the Triads are characterized as having problems with feeling (2,3,4 - ego-dominated types), thinking (5,6,7 -superego-dominated types) or instincts 8,9,1 - id-dominated
types).
2) "In other words, there is a core 'problem' in each Triad: the types of the Feeling Triad have common problems stemming from their egos, the types of the Thinking Triad have common problems stemming from their superegos and the types of the Instinctive Triad have common problems stemming from their ids.
3) In addition to a core problem in each Triad, we discover that each individual personality type is 'dominated' by one of the Freudian functions of the mind which is in conflict with the core 'problem' of the Triad.
Then they give this example:
1) "For example, the personality type E2 is dominated by its superego. If you will recall, the Two's self-esteem was conditional to feeling that it was loved by others for its good works and good intentions. The Two feels guilty when it is unloving, selfish or aggressive, and so forth.
2) While it's superego dominated it's mental life, it's ego (its need for validation, self-esteem, and consistent self-image) is also an important of the picture (because types 2,3,4 have problems with ego.) So, to interpret the Freudian dynamics, we would say that the Two's superego and ego are in some sort of potential conflict with each other.
3) (The solution is.....) The E2 needs to bring its id into balance with its superego and ego by going to Four.
4) On the other hand, if the Two becomes more neurotic and moves to its direction of disintegration, it goes to E8, adding more ego expansion to its already inflated and distorted self image, with the result that it becomes further out of touch with potentially dangerous aggressive impulses from the id."
So it seems the triads have "common problems with" and the individual types are 'dominated by' causing the internal conflicts that the types experience. It's easier to see in the diagram I have on page 452 - maybe if you check the back of your book, you may find a similar diagram?
" In your examples from Riso and Hudson, the statement
"4,5,9 are all 'withdrawn' from the direct expression of their id impulses and especially their ability to assert themselves in the environment."
does not suggest that the 4, 5 or 9 is dominated by their id; problems with their id maybe but certainly not dominated by it. On the other hand, I can easily see that the 7 and 8 are dominated by their id. I interpret dominant as the part that is most expressed. It fits well with the superego types 1,2 and 6 and fits with Riso's earlier book of Personality Types 1987 which apparently differs from Riso and Hudson according to what you have read. I can see the 4 and 5 dominated by their ego but certainly not their id.
Doesn't that make more sense to you?
It certainly doesn't seem simple does it? :))
I also have problems with the statements that the superego types have problems with thinking. As a 1, I would have more problems with my id which does not translate into problems with thinking I would have thought.
I never really understood the idea that E1 had problems with thinking myself and perhaps maybe I still don't. I know I read something on it recently but I can't find it right now. I think it's because E1 tends to over-think, or their thinking process runs away with them. I just started reading "The Boy Who Couldn't Stop Washing" a book about obsessive-compulsive disorder which helped me to see how it could happen. Of cource, OCD is the extreme but the internal critic is a good indication of the potential for this disorder. [/green]
Red
istj 6w5[/green]
Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the concept but if so, one thing remains and that is the difference in views from Riso's earlier book and that of Riso and Hudson. They both can't be right.
Laurie 1w2 ENTJ
Red
istj sp6w5
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carlos
Member
3768 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 3:58:35 PM
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quote:
I'd rather be the one to point out the fact that I have a pea brain, keeps my reactivity low if someone picks on me by being pretentious.
so do you or do you not actually believe that you're dumb?
love,
carlos the unhealthy 5
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n/a
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2573 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 4:19:07 PM
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| nope. |
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carlos
Member
3768 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 4:59:46 PM
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quote:
nope.
okay, so at least now we've explained that mystery. you believe you have average- to above-average intellectual functioning and therefore your theories, opinions, explanations, etc, may have some validity.
you do not believe that you're dumb.
personally, i believe that i'm a brave and powerful African warrior-king:
and an average- to above-average military leader:
and an ambitious criminal mastermind:
but anyways, i don't want to distract from the focused enneagram discussion anymore-- freud and the enneagram!-- so dee, thank you for your time.
love,
carlos the unhealthy 5
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Edited by - carlos on 02 May 2004 5:02:59 PM |
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n/a
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2573 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 5:08:04 PM
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| Carlos, I'm subjective. I speak from my experience FIRST. |
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carlos
Member
3768 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 5:23:24 PM
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quote:
Carlos, I'm subjective
me too! we have something in common.
quote:
I speak from my experience FIRST.
luckily, you have strong perceptive, analytical, and interpretive powers and intuitive abilities.
god, i'm chatting on the focused board-- i feel so guilty. 
love,
carlos the unhealthy 5
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Edited by - carlos on 02 May 2004 5:25:31 PM |
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n/a
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2573 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 5:25:36 PM
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having a bad day, Carlos? Want to go ID to ID on this with me? 
lol
Dee - 4w3 sx/sp/so INFP
SSS/Merc Capricorn moon/Libra rising ()
"Truly, truly I say to you. I am the one who sent me!" -John
"A candle loses none of its light by lighting another candle."
Author:Unknown (known ;) )
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carlos
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3768 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 5:31:03 PM
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quote:
Want to go ID to ID on this with me?
dee, i'm afraid my ID would have your ID spasming and begging for mercy before nightfall, but i've got better things to do with my ID.
may the Force be with you-- you definitely need it.
love,
carlos the unhealthy 5
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Posted - 02 May 2004 : 5:35:05 PM
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how would you know? you don't. See, 5's don't know everything, SURPRISE SURPRISE
Oh, quite on the contrary. May the Force be with YOU.
Dee - 4w3 sx/sp/so INFP
SSS/Merc Capricorn moon/Libra rising ()
"Truly, truly I say to you. I am the one who sent me!" -John
"A candle loses none of its light by lighting another candle."
Author:Unknown (known ;) )
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FYI - Id, Ego and Superego
