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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:21:09 AM
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At the IEA, Naranjo is doing 3 mornings and a full day on the instinctual variants (he calls them 'subtypes'). I've been to 2 of the mornings and will write more of my overall impression of the experience when I've got time. For now, I'm going to transcribe my notes from the first day. I thought he completely nailed the sexual 5, and a lot of his other descriptions seemed very good & specific, but it's harder for me to weed this out w/other types. Here and there he said things I completely disagreed with, but he was a very disorganized speaker, so it may sometimes be a case of misunderstanding which type he was talking about when. I may not respond to questions immediately but I'll get around to it when I can.
He said some general things about the E - he doesn't like it taught as information, it should be experiential. It is a map that organizes various types and levels of spiritual work, not a spiritual practice in itself. It should not be used with the attitude "This person has x attributes and I am smart to notice them".
BTW, I thought it'd be easier to make 3 threads - he didn't present this way, he just went sequentially from 1-9. His presentations of each type were inconsistent in format. Also keep in mind what he was most focused on was what our Neurotic Needs are, so all of this is in that context. He described NNs as offsprings/derivatives of the main problems of enneatype, and they are insatiable - there is never enough to satisfy them.
8s generally - don't seek self knowledge, gravitate towards cynicism, hardening. Love issues are not accessible. A lot of repression of tenderness & inner child
8 sexual - Anti-social tendency. Rebellious. More provacative than SO, SP. Out front saying "my values are different from the norm". Hysterical, emotional 8. Possession of the scene in total, a little like being the center. Power comes through seductiveness and fascination. Colored feathers.
8 social - Punitive in defense of mother. A social anti-social. Example: a mother is abused by husband, the 8 child violently defends mother - it's a violence of solidarity. Ichazo used the word "friendship" for this subtype. Naranjo's word is "complicity". Related to loyalty. Child in example becomes anti-father, therefore anti-school, anti-authority, anti-intellectual. Underneath is something like an oedipus complex - to get mother love. It's hard to see the need for mother beneath the loyalty. Hard to make love-needs conscious (this is true with everyone, but more with this type). Most loyal of the 3 subtypes. The only 8 intellectual is the social 8.
8 self-pres Satisfaction. "It's mine; I have to get it." Intolerance of frustration of desires. Most armed of 8s. Doesn't need to talk too much. Lion only moves when hungry. No nonsense, no word play. Exaggerated selfishness. Know how to do business, bargain, get upper hand over anyone. Survival is the utmost. More action, not talk.
9s generally - Very loving people but deep down don't feel loved, they are resigned.
9 self-pres - Appetite. Sancho Panza. I eat therefore I am. I sleep, I have, I want creature comforts. No metaphysical level of thinking. Can't talk about Being. Substitution of bottle for mother's breast was so complete that they are fused with their body. "Homo economicus" - the double chinned banker. Very practical people.
9 social - Jolly good fellow. Light hearted, merry. Passion of participation, to feel a part of. Doesn't feel a part of to begin with, feels doesn't have what it takes to fit. Very mindful of group "other"; they fuse with the group. Good leader, unselfish, sacrificial. Passion of paying for ticket to group admission. Workaholic. Believes not to show pain or weigh others down with own woes.
9 sexual - Union/fusion/symbiosis/confluence. Needs to be through another. Fuses with one other. Use relationship to feed your being because you don't stand on your own 2 feet - stands through the other. Suspicious tenderness. Nobodies, not living with passion. Too dispassionate. "Nowhere Man". Not noticable - wallflower. Erased from family picture. "She eats but no one has seen her chew." Betrays own needs.
1s generally - SX are the reformers, minding others' business, perfecting others. SO are perfect already. SP worries too much. Problem of morality vs. moralism
1 sexual - An animal in heat. Anger infuses desire. "I have to have it and I have a right to it." Example: diamond mines in Africa - feeling that "I did the work to get the diamonds and what would the Africans use them for anyhow? They don't know what to do with diamonds, they don't appreciate them." The conquistador. I have a right to what is wanted. No shame in wanting what's not appropriate - asks "Why Not???" Rhinocerous of a person
1 social - Unadaptable. Rigid, school teacher mentality. "I'm going to tell you how it is." Aristocratic. My way is right; others must adapt to me. Tendency to adhere to a particular way of doing things, like a scholar that is such in every sense of the word but hangs on to a bad accent and grammar from home and refuses to adapt to the environment. The model, the one that already knows and doesn't need to learn from others. Need for superiority. Make others wrong to have power over them.
1 self-pres - Passion for worrying. Not just behavioral - there's a need to worry. Need to know how it's going to happen. Must have everything taken care of.
5w4 sx/sp |
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brainstorm v5.4
Member
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:27:03 AM
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Good stuff. Thanks Bear.
brainstorm - 5w4, INTP
Never forget |
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Noel Chandler
Member
25 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 01:25:25 AM
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Thanks for posting this. I've been having a hard time figuring out my variant stacking, but based on this, only the social nine seems to fit. The sexual description is different than most of the ones I've seen, or at least more negative. But I guess I could see myself as so/sx. Thanks again.
9w8 IxFP |
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kaif84
Member
India
463 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 07:01:14 AM
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thanks bear, beautiful and stimulating stuff  . cant wait till you get to types 4, 5 and 6.
inxp, 5, sp/sx |
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Abi
Member
USA
5911 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 09:35:31 AM
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Thanx for your effort, Bear.
I've always leaned towards Delmar being a social 9 but his stacking wasn't clear to me...from this it would seem his stacking is soc/sex/sp.
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Ashton
Member
USA
1624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 09:52:27 AM
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Thanks bear, appreciate the post.
INTJ 7w8 Sx/So/Sp |
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emmy
Member
USA
1712 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 09:57:38 AM
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That's a realy good post, Bear. Thanks.
Emmy 8x7 XNTJ 
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DenmarkGuy
Member
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 2:20:49 PM
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Thanks, bear, for sharing this "live" as it were.
I've always been drawn to Naranjo's perspective of the enneagram, not least because of his ability to "cut through the garbage and get to the point." Once again, his words about the sx9 are not pretty, but bang on the money.
--Peter
9w1(sx)/INFJ |
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Crooner
Member
USA
5355 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 3:32:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
1 sexual - An animal in heat. Anger infuses desire. "I have to have it and I have a right to it." Example: diamond mines in Africa - feeling that "I did the work to get the diamonds and what would the Africans use them for anyhow? They don't know what to do with diamonds, they don't appreciate them." The conquistador. I have a right to what is wanted. No shame in wanting what's not appropriate - asks "Why Not???" Rhinocerous of a person
Hmmmm... I'm inferring: Not only a right to what one works for, but exclusive rights to what one has earned. Therefore, sharing is optional; never compulsory.
Yup... that would be my INTJ homegirl, Ayn Rand.
- Crooner
P.S. "An animal in heat." LOL. Yeah, that's Ayn Rand too. |
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emmy
Member
USA
1712 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 3:37:14 PM
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Ayn Rand is definitely a fascinating individual, Crooner. I don't think I like a single thing she's written or her philosophy but as a person, she's quite the woman.
Emmy 8x7 XNTJ
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Hompo
Member
3195 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 12:25:06 AM
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| ayn rand is an extravert in my opinion. she was comfortable speaking in social settings and interacted intensely with people, sometimes too intensely. she was not shy or drawn inwards a bit. her focus was very outer and she enjoyed dominating group conversations. i'm not sure what the reasoning was on that one. explain. |
Edited by - Hompo on 09 Aug 2004 12:25:59 AM |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15350 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 10:50:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by surefoot
Also, I'm quite fond of reading, even history and science.  Does this mean I cant't be an eight anymore?
Of course not! My dad reads alot, especially history, and he's very much an 8.
7w6 Sx/So/Sp
ENFP
Dramatic Style |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15350 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 10:53:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
8s generally - don't seek self knowledge, gravitate towards cynicism, hardening. Love issues are not accessible. A lot of repression of tenderness & inner child
I would agree about most of this, except that I believe 8's can be very much in touch with their inner child, particularly 8w7. I see alot of this in my dad, he's very playful and funny.
7w6 Sx/So/Sp
ENFP
Dramatic Style |
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oddball
Member
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 3:56:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by surefoot
That definitely fits (I'm sp). I've had doubts about actually being an 8 because I keep my mouth shut most of the time, except with my family.
I'm also an 8 (sp) and I've recently realized I have a seven wing, but I'm an introvert and I was wondering if the SP variant explains the introversion. |
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Patrick
Member
USA
963 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 5:59:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
9 self-pres - Appetite. Sancho Panza. I eat therefore I am. I sleep, I have, I want creature comforts. No metaphysical level of thinking. Can't talk about Being. Substitution of bottle for mother's breast was so complete that they are fused with their body. "Homo economicus" - the double chinned banker. Very practical people.
1 self-pres - Passion for worrying. Not just behavioral - there's a need to worry. Need to know how it's going to happen. Must have everything taken care of.
If those are accurate descriptions, and I really do have a self-pres variant, then I'm definitely a 1w9, not a 9w1. The 9sp description above is just about my opposite in every way. I'm much more like Don Quixote than Sancho Panza.
However, I have my doubts about the above descriptions. From what I'm reading so far in this thread, I have to say that if Naranjo is right (and is being fairly represented here), I don't relate to any of the so-called instinctual variants, nor do I see any usefulness in them. That puts me back to square one--the attitude I had before I researched and discussed the variants at length and thought I'd finally gotten it.
--Patrick (9w1sp, INFJ)
Please visit or join Temperament Talk at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temperamenttalk/ |
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 10:07:30 PM
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Patrick, you like solitude but it's not a lonely place for you, you can always find something to do and enjoy this time very much. So does type 1 (enjoy keeping busy in things that they can take pride in, results focused), 4 (have an unhealthy desire to be lonely so they can long), 5 (have time to think, free from distraction), and 9 (go in meditative state - dream world). We had spoke before on this and you had mentioned that having your space and time to do what you enjoy solitary is important to you.
I'm thinking your Type 1 with a heavy wing 9. This makes most sense.
What do you think?
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 09 Aug 2004 10:13:56 PM |
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Val
Member
USA
4990 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 10:10:28 PM
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Mum(1w2) & Dad(9w8) both so/sp like me.
6w5 so/sp INfP
"It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help." ~Unknown |
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 11:23:16 PM
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My moms an 8 soc (absolutely hated her father and went out of her way to make him into a monster. She was strongly connected to mother figure and still stands up for her years after her death. She's very controlling and intense but has a 9 wing where I sometimes feel the urge to snap my fingers at her to get her to come back to reality)
My dad is a 9 soc and has been under much stress from my mom most of their marriage because she has a hateful outlook on men and he took the brunt of it without ever complaining. He's there but where?
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 09 Aug 2004 11:23:46 PM |
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:13:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by surefoot
Also, I'm quite fond of reading, even history and science. Does this mean I cant't be an eight anymore?
Ha. I think you can be quite fond of those things without actually being an intellectual. It doesn't mean you don't have an intellect. |
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:23:45 AM
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A few responses make me think this might be worth repeating:
keep in mind what he was most focused on was what our Neurotic Needs are, so all of this is in that context. He described NNs as offsprings/derivatives of the main problems of enneatype, and they are insatiable - there is never enough to satisfy them.
The NN is basically about the passion & fixation as expressed within the context of type. So these aren't meant to be full descriptions of each subtype - they're meant to get at what the driving force and the resulting negative behavioral cycle produces.
Patrick, don't know what to say in response to your post (not that I have to). I know the Fauvres did a seminar on variants as well, and they made the argument that the IVs are even more consistent than type - that there's more commonality amongst any type SP/SO/SX than amongst any group of a particular enneatype. I personally believe it's a equal dose of both,. |
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:36:18 AM
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Desdemona - I would agree about most of this, except that I believe 8's can be very much in touch with their inner child, particularly 8w7. I see alot of this in my dad, he's very playful and funny.
Yes, of course - see previous post about NNs. What you're describing is really a level of health. Condon did some work in front of a group yesterday that was fascinating - he worked with an 8 and then a 7. He said that the challenge for 8s is to get away from the polarity that they feel - they see their choices as to be puffed up and armed to the teeth, or to be an infant lying naked on a 4-lane highway. 8's challenge is to find the emotional range in between the two.
Hompo ayn rand is an extravert in my opinion. she was comfortable speaking in social settings and interacted intensely with people, sometimes too intensely. she was not shy or drawn inwards a bit.
I don't know much about Rand, but I'm highly introverted (approx 80% on the MBTI scale), yet all of the above describes me. Introverted doesn't always imply shy or untalkative.
Surefoot - I think you're right about 8s mistaking their introversion. I recently picked up on this with my father. He acts like he doesn't like people, but he can't do without them. He spends very little time alone, considers himself shy even though he runs his own business, has to sell jobs to customers day in & out, etc. If you asked him, he'd call himself an introvert, but he definitely ain't.
5w4 sx/sp |
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Patrick
Member
USA
963 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 07:54:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
Patrick, don't know what to say in response to your post (not that I have to). I know the Fauvres did a seminar on variants as well, and they made the argument that the IVs are even more consistent than type - that there's more commonality amongst any type SP/SO/SX than amongst any group of a particular enneatype. I personally believe it's a equal dose of both,.
My best line of reasoning so far is: I'm a 9; therefore I'm most out of touch with the gut (instinctual) center--so it makes sense that every time I read about the IVs, I end up scratching my head and thinking, "Do people really even have instincts? Animals have instincts, but people? I don't relate to any of these."
When jase or someone here on the EIDB abstracts the IVs, equating sp with "cold," sx with "hot," and so with "lukewarm," suddenly it makes sense to me. That's easy for me to relate to. I can see that kind of thing in myself and others.
But every time someone (like Naranjo) makes it very concrete, referring to primitive drives for food, sex, or social position, I'm lost. I've spent most of my life downplaying, denying, or trying to transcend those things. I'd have no idea how to make a U-turn and rediscover them. Nor do I think I'd want to.
--Patrick (9w1sp, INFJ)
Please visit or join Temperament Talk at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temperamenttalk/ |
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Patrick
Member
USA
963 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 10:45:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dee
Patrick, you like solitude but . . .
What do you think?
Dee, I've replied to your post in the 9w1/1w9 thread. Didn't want to get off-topic in this one.
--Patrick (9w1sp, INFJ)
Please visit or join Temperament Talk at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/temperamenttalk/ |
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bear
Member
USA
5754 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 3:13:13 PM
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| Interesting post, Patrick (as usual) |
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Crooner
Member
USA
5355 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2006 : 6:37:50 PM
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| < Bump > |
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Boss
Member
1736 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2006 : 06:11:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
8s generally - don't seek self knowledge, gravitate towards cynicism, hardening. Love issues are not accessible. A lot of repression of tenderness & inner child
8 sexual - Anti-social tendency. Rebellious. More provacative than SO, SP. Out front saying "my values are different from the norm". Hysterical, emotional 8. Possession of the scene in total, a little like being the center. Power comes through seductiveness and fascination. Colored feathers.
8 social - Punitive in defense of mother. A social anti-social. Example: a mother is abused by husband, the 8 child violently defends mother - it's a violence of solidarity. Ichazo used the word "friendship" for this subtype. Naranjo's word is "complicity". Related to loyalty. Child in example becomes anti-father, therefore anti-school, anti-authority, anti-intellectual. Underneath is something like an oedipus complex - to get mother love. It's hard to see the need for mother beneath the loyalty. Hard to make love-needs conscious (this is true with everyone, but more with this type). Most loyal of the 3 subtypes. The only 8 intellectual is the social 8.
8 self-pres Satisfaction. "It's mine; I have to get it." Intolerance of frustration of desires. Most armed of 8s. Doesn't need to talk too much. Lion only moves when hungry. No nonsense, no word play. Exaggerated selfishness. Know how to do business, bargain, get upper hand over anyone. Survival is the utmost. More action, not talk.
Hmmm. |
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Naranjo's Subtypes - Gut triad
