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bear
Member
USA
5803 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:46:31 AM
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see intro in gut triad thread
additional general note - there are 2 subtypes for each type that are quite representative of the type, and the other tends to turn the type upside down. Like the sexual 6 - the counterphobic 6, or the counter-gluttony of the social 7, or the counter-vanity of the self-pres 3.
2s generally - "helper" is not a good word for 2. They're not really helpful but strategically helpful. Inconsistent with offers of help.
2 sexual - Seducer. Expression of feeling to get your allegiances. Dangerous beauty - needs to have a hold of you, might eat you up. NN to seduce, desire for other. Helen of Troy - woman for whom men went to war and lost their lives. Wants EVERYTHING - wants someone to give them everything - it might be material, might be pampering, whatever - but they want everything to come from the other. The dumb blond - doesn't need to develop intelligence.
2 social - Wants to be important, leader type. Ambition to stand above, have influence and advantages. Stuffy. More civilized, less voluptuous than SX, more adult than SP.
2 self-pres - more childlike than the other two subtypes. Cuteness, less adult. "Infantile" by psychoanaytic standards. "ME" is the most important, in a child like way, a child-like importance. Wants to be loved just for being. The love need is quite naked. They use remaining little for gain. Pretend to be unadulterated.
3 self-pres - has the vanity of having no vanity. So determined to be good, to be how a person should be (good housewife, good father, good worker, good monk, etc) and that implies vanity. Difficult to recognize SP 3 as a 3. NN is to be good. Security - autonomy - taking care of one self. Do for self 1st. The kind of person that you go to for advice.
3 sexual - wants to be good in a different sense of the word - beautiful, attractive, masculine or feminine depending on gender. They are pleasers. It doesn't have to be sexualized - it's way more subtle than that. A woman might have a passion for family and being so good, needing those close to her to see her as wonderful.
3 social - Corporate greed, so concentrated on doing something right that they don't see the flaws in their methods. Compassion for brilliance, doing job as best as can be done. Worldliness. Prestige - need everone's approval, not just some people's. Isn't in DSM IV as having anything wrong with this type[this note may apply to 3s in general].
4s generally - the subtypes among 4s are more differentiated than with other enneatypes - more striking differences between these.
4 social - laments too much, too weepy, too often the victim, self-sabotaging, oversensitive, suffering more than others. NN to suffer - a child suffers to attract mother's love/attention - the way to happiness is through tears. Depends too much on others to ease suffering. Feels guilty for any wish. Most shameful. NN for self-abasement, compares self to others and winds up at the bottom of the ladder. Uncompetitive, insisting something's wrong with me.
4 self-pres Loves suffering. Person who's learned to swallow a lot. Has learned to endure pain without wincing. "see how much I don't complain, don't ask for things - can you love me now??" Passion/NN is to endure - makes a career of enduring. Trains self in pain, like Lawrence of Arabia putting out the match with his fingers, able to endure the desert even the Arabs couldn't. Masochism.
4 sexual - Shameless. Even if it's shameful, I will stil get what I want, do anything to satisfy my desires. The more I complain, the more I get (this strategy works well as child, but not as adult). Viking ENVY, cannabalistic drive, competitive hate. Oral aggression - wishing mixed with anger. Sin of Cain - I envy you therefore I kill you. If I envy wealth, I start a revolution. Hateful, outspoken with anger, envy as competition.
5w4 sx/sp |
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brainstorm v5.4
Member
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:56:30 AM
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Good stuff. Thanks Bear.
brainstorm - 5w4, INTP
Never forget |
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:08:46 PM
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IMO, he's got the 4sp/ wrong. Lawrence from Arabia fits the Type 7 unhealthy level profile to a TEE. He wasn't doing this for as a need for love, he was a thrill seeker. Very sp/ yes, but not 4.
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 08 Aug 2004 12:16:49 PM |
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emmy
Member
USA
1712 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 3:44:55 PM
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Dear Dee,
Lawrence was a fascinating (and tortured) person....his Seven Pillars of Wisdom was a hodgepodge of mostly imagined adventures...I got the feeling he might be a four. Do you want to expand on your thoughts about him being a seven?
Emmy 8x7 XNTJ 
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 3:57:28 PM
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Sure.
Early in the film Lawrence of Arabia, Lawrence is sitting in an office drawing maps and talking to his compatriot about the Bedouin attacking the Turks. Another man joins them and Lawrence lights a cigarette, putting the match out with his fingers. The newcomer tries the same trick, but drops the match with a shout of "it hurts." To which Lawrence replies: "The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
Type 7 skips cerebral function and it is said that they must spend time in this function - think before you act.
He would have said this, "is not caring that it hurts." or " I don't feel the pain." or "is not feeling that it hurts" etc.
He says "minding" he could also say "thinking"
This points to the head triad not heart.
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 08 Aug 2004 4:12:20 PM |
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Tira
Member
USA
1971 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 7:51:38 PM
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interesting, though bordering on extreme stereotyping.
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 8:26:12 PM
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LOL.. yes, Naranjo's says it like it is but... OUCH!
I wonder what his Type is?
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 08 Aug 2004 8:40:42 PM |
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pork
Member
USA
5147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 8:51:45 PM
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Dee: or "is not feeling that it hurts" etc.
Do people really talk that way? 
^(oo)^
4w3, SP/SX, INFJ |
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 10:32:07 PM
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No, just dee's do, don'tcha know?
I should have quoted, like this..
quote:
To which Lawrence replies: "The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
and then inserted the different scenarios.
without Pork, there would be no way 
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
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Tira
Member
USA
1971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 12:32:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dee
LOL.. yes, Naranjo's says it like it is but... OUCH!
I wonder what his Type is?
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS
well it aint "like it is" for me. i have been inclined toward self sufficiency since i was in single digits in age, resulting in gainful employment since the age of 10!
two's generally have a problem receiving and asking, so i was quite shocked by the CAPITLIZED word everything and wants everything from the other. woah
i know some board members are married/dating twos and wonder if this rings true???
also i'd use flirtatious (inviting)as opposed to seduction for the subtle difference in power balance and intent between the two parties, at least for myself. perhaps claudio was done over by gold digger back in the day. oh well
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 5:53:32 PM
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Well, I know I have a wicked streak of hatred in me and mumble to myself complaining quite a bit all day at work. When I do this, someone will walk by and say hi and I'll shut up and make like everything is just great!!  
My mom as a kid would here me doing this, I've been doing this forever and would tell me I'm horrible, have such a dirty mouth -"Shame on you!" Very seldom do I use it towards anyone but when I do, I'm very direct and give full eye contact. Then what do I do? I start to cry.
I just burn when expectations are on me for whatever reason.
Gee, don't I sound lovely
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 09 Aug 2004 5:57:03 PM |
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CosmicDust
Member
USA
7300 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 7:45:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
5 social - More out there, totem. Need for super ideals. Relates to ideas, not people. Like Midas - wants everything he touches to be gold. Looking for super value, the elixir of meaning. Image oriented. So obsessed with idea loses engagement in life. NEED for extraordinary. Polarity between extraordinaryness and meaninglessness. Everything is meaningless unless ultimate meaning is found. Need for ultimate instead of what is there.
Sounds about right to me.
__________________________
My spirit is a hawk gliding on the wind. My soul is a wolf tracking down prey in the forests of the north. My ego is a wildlife biologist who films and describes their activities in a documentary, every once in a while taking a moment to really connect with the wilderness. |
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 8:30:36 PM
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CD, can you see how Crooner is 5 now? Image oriented (sorry to talk about you Crooner but I've seen your website  ) and intense. I think more sx/ for him but definately so/ second. I don't know you Crooner, I'm just going by my impression, intuition and that's all I can cause I'm on a message board. 
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
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CosmicDust
Member
USA
7300 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 9:24:07 PM
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I still think Crooner is likely to be a 3, Dee. I don't see strong evidence for Fiveness. It's possible, but not definite. I can generally only spot the most obvious cases of type patterns anyway.
Entre: I'm generally not very talkative about my personal life offline - I may answer "personal" questions if someone asks them, or tell them some things, but ideas tend to be my main themes of conversation. Also, I tend not to use a very personal tone when talking about my personal life - I treat it as just information. Caring too much about how people online judge me doesn't make sense, and when I do care I may quickly realize that it doesn't make that much sense (except for using the feedback as info about some weaknesses I may have to work around).
__________________________
My spirit is a hawk gliding on the wind. My soul is a wolf tracking down prey in the forests of the north. My ego is a wildlife biologist who films and describes their activities in a documentary, every once in a while taking a moment to really connect with the wilderness. |
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Val
Member
USA
4990 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 10:07:25 PM
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My younger sister is a Self-Pres 2, probably sp/sx. Not sure why sp 2 would be the most infantile... but she is in a lot of ways. Everything about her screams "Take care of me!" Her words can sometimes contradict this, though. She tries to be helpful by minimizing the amount of trouble she causes others, yet she has little or no desire (apparently) to be truly independent. Didn't drive till age 18, stating as an excuse "that's what parents are for". Has spent her entire first summer off from college at home. No job, no nothing. Just being helpful around the house and going places with her friends. Similar to type 9 she can be impossible when it comes to making decisions, copping out and asking other people to make big decisions for her. Funny when she knows just what everyone else ought to do with their lives, and often dispenses such advice.
6w5 so/sp INfP
"It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help." ~Unknown |
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Crooner
Member
USA
5406 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 10:18:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CosmicDust
I still think Crooner is likely to be a 3, Dee. I don't see strong evidence for Fiveness.
Uh-Ohhh!!! 
I sure hope I didn’t mess up the Enneagram Institute’s scientific experiment!
EI is collaborating with a private psychometrics firm (that has a proprietary Belbin-like test) to correlate the nine EnneaTypes with characteristics identified in the private firm’s Flagship testing instrument. I’m given to understand that this private firm has solid standing with the international business community.
Anyway, I acceded to be one of about 300 people taking the test as a representative of my EnneaType. The two major requirements were that: (1) the participant has to be over 90% sure of his self-typing and (2) EI has to agree with the participant’s self-typing.
Well, if EI just happen to change their minds, they can take my results out of the Five bucket and throw it into the bucket for another EnneaType. It’s okay with me.
Crooner
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:29:06 AM
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just my thoughts..
Naranjo's has some funky thing with his placement of Type 6cp and 4sx/ and so who knows how he comes up with what he does, I personally think he's the 4sx/ description but in 6cp... call it intuition, he projecting his own 6 placing it 4sx/. I've read some work he's done in psychiatry and he's somehow obsessed with the 4sx/ imo. I think the reason is that the 6cp and 4sx are so similar in motivation but the 4sx/ is more favorable because it's counterphobic in need for authenticity rather than needing to be approved of. Overall, I don't believe a 6 can be completely cp, the p seems to be the the cause for 6 to go cp but does it by needing to push away from group to then stand out so individualistic but it's for phobic approval. Type 4 is also individualistic but it's not for approval, it's so you open your mind up to a different point of view that is not formed by need for you to approve, but for you to admire their uniqueness - separation from group attained, mission accomplished.
Imo, he's wanting this recognition and even went as far as taking his teachers Typing and moving the 6cp in 4sx/ position. This would lead me to believe he has a need for 6p approval but wants it not to be about this.
Anybody done any studying on him at all? I've been lately and came up with this spin. Maybe I should take a spin right now and land in la-la zzz good night.
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
Edited by - anon1 on 10 Aug 2004 12:33:51 AM |
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bear
Member
USA
5803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 01:03:25 AM
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Tira - Naranjo is describing the Neurotic Needs of the types - the passion/fixation. He's not doing a complete type description, it's more about describing the core motivation. So yes, these are the "ouch" parts of descriptions - he's not including the healthy aspect of type at all. Also T, there's a pretty fine line between flirting and seducing. I probably wasn't as clear as I could be about this - each 2 will have a particular "everything" that they want - it's not material and pampering. They will want complete financial support, or complete pampering, or undivided attention, (he mentioned others but I couldn't write fast enough to keep up).
Dee, do you know Naranjo to be a 6?? I've been wondering all weekend what his type is, assuming him to be in the 3-6-9 triad. He definitely seems like an iNtuitive & is way way out there on the Perceiving end (he's very disorganized). I had a strong suspicion that he was a 6 who's integrated a lot of 9, but still expresses a few nasty 3 remnants here and there.
I thought all the 4s were dead on (I have many close 4s in my life, of all varieties). I also sat in on an SP4 group for a while and everything they were describing about themselves fit his definition. One of my close friends was at the IEA also - she's an SX4 who has extremely heavy enneagram creditials - and she found the description to be dead on (she said she felt completely exposed when he covered this type). She was in a group of SX4s who all resonated with the description as well. I also have to vote with Emmy for Lawrence as a 4.
I also thought SP 2 was dead on - I have an SP 2 close friend who is so childlike (and I mean that in a good way - she's healthy).
5w4 sx/sp |
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CosmicDust
Member
USA
7300 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 09:56:39 AM
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Good point, Entre - I don't see a 5 so deeply trusting in credentials over reasoning. That seems more 3-6 line. If a 5 were to put more trust in the source with credentials at first, then that would only be until he or she comes up with a logical reason to believe that the enthusiastic amateurs may know what they're talking about at least as well as the pros do. In that case, the 5 would probably evaluate each source for logical consistency, and trust most those sources that seem most logically consistent.
__________________________
My spirit is a hawk gliding on the wind. My soul is a wolf tracking down prey in the forests of the north. My ego is a wildlife biologist who films and describes their activities in a documentary, every once in a while taking a moment to really connect with the wilderness. |
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pork
Member
USA
5147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 10:41:16 AM
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CosmicDust: I don't see a 5 so deeply trusting in credentials over reasoning.
Crooner seems to trust his self-observations above all, and then notes that some people who are highly regarded in the E-gram field happen to agree with him. Realize that Crooner explains why these "old pros" agree with him, and states that they're agreeing with him, not that he's agreeing with them.
Also Crooner has done many years of self-improvement work, with an evident focus on developing the personal qualities that his natural fixations have left underdeveloped, so his E-type may be less evident than that of some Fives here who, if I dare say, often sound as if they're enjoying their flaming Fiveness.
There's a chance you'll find these flaming qualities diluting over time, though, even if you don't engage in the self-improvement work that Crooner has. The personality tends to broaden as it ages. Now figure out your own type for once.
^(oo)^
4w3, SP/SX, INFJ |
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Crooner
Member
USA
5406 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 11:41:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by pork
Crooner seems to trust his self-observations above all, and then notes that some people who are highly regarded in the E-gram field happen to agree with him. Realize that Crooner explains why these "old pros" agree with him, and states that they're agreeing with him, not that he's agreeing with them.
Nice to see you back on the Board, Pork.
On one hand, I can do things that appear Three-ish to some folks. And on the other hand, there’s probably a hundred ways an observer could spin-doctor any of my statements. Essentially, anyone can make me out as any EnneaType via spin-doctoring.
It’s been said that I do a lot of Three-ish name-dropping. I first picked that up from a Social Five, who had that “Totems” thing going on. I met her at Becca’s Enneagram Board, and she encouraged me to join the Duke List because of certain members who are published Enneagram authors. “Totems” -- I guess you call them. To her, the membership and participation of these Totems on the Duke List made it a “high quality list.”
After this Social Five and I had a falling out, she arbitrarily reclassified me as some other EnneaNumber. I’ve also seen her do this with other Fives. The moment you tick her off, she reclassifies you.
Anyway, I was eventually invited to spend an afternoon with one of the Totems that this Social Five idolized. The Enneagram author that I visited (a Five herself), assessed me as a Five with strong arrows to Seven and Eight. She also said that my overall presentation is similar to a Four music composer that she knows.
When I reported these assessments back to the Social Five, she was infuriated! From then on, she disdainfully referred to her previous Idol/Totem as “that woman.”
I eventually saw that this was an effective way to handle a Social Five: Find out who they respect, get the backing of those Totems, and make your adversary feel like they’re being painted into a corner.
To use an analogy from JohnB’s favorite game… it’s just a matter of: “Check”… “Check”… “Check”… Just a matter of time before we get to “Checkmate.”
Of course, being a former student of Aikido, I might eventually play the nice guy and just go for the Stalemate.
Crooner
Sexual Five
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pork
Member
USA
5147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:50:41 PM
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entre1: How do you explain this Pork?
I start by suggesting you're reading too much into Crooner's statement. Add to that your attempt to determine his E-type by what he writes on a message board, and we have a double-whammy of gun-jumping.
entre1: No chance in hell would a 5 do that...healthy, unhealthy...doesn't matter.
Hit the books again, and please, skip Baron and Wagele this time.
entre1: so that he blindly excepts authority now? I don't buy it.
Crooner hasn't indicated any propensity on his part to "blindly except (sic) authority." Maybe he means he's self-assured enough to regard his own opinions above Riso and Hudson's, but again, as I implied in my "hit the books" statement, the issue of Fiveness is more complex. Do all Fives have a dominantly internal frame of reference... about everything? Does anyone? You can ask him what he meant, if you want. You ought to, in this case, before you go gun-jumping.
^(oo)^
4w3, SP/SX, INFJ |
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CosmicDust
Member
USA
7300 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 2:31:10 PM
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Hmm. Here's what I read into Crooner's statement after Pork points out that it need not imply a trust in authorities: "I don't care what they think of my type, or if they disqualify me from the test...'cause I'm the mighty Teflon Crooner and I'm just going to do that Buddhist nonattachment thing."
__________________________
My spirit is a hawk gliding on the wind. My soul is a wolf tracking down prey in the forests of the north. My ego is a wildlife biologist who films and describes their activities in a documentary, every once in a while taking a moment to really connect with the wilderness. |
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pork
Member
USA
5147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 2:40:10 PM
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entre1: I still can't see a 5 construct a sentence like that . . .
You need to have this debate with someone who will take it seriously. Try a neophyte who just skimmed through a Baron and Wagele book.
entre1: Who the heck is/are Baron and Wagele?
To be continued... gotta run for a bit.
^(oo)^
4w3, SP/SX, INFJ |
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CosmicDust
Member
USA
7300 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 2:48:20 PM
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Non-attachment, as I understand it, is supposed to be the healthy version of neurotic 5 detachment. In theory, a healthy 5 would experience things and treasure that experience, yet not be caught up in overidentification with any aspect of it. In practice, an average 5 tends to be disidentified with experience and dismissive of the importance of sensations, emotions, and other things outside of the thinker/observer ego. It's common, but I don't know if it's required, for a typical 5 to be attached to his or her ideas, as he or she has spent a lot of energy refining them.
__________________________
My spirit is a hawk gliding on the wind. My soul is a wolf tracking down prey in the forests of the north. My ego is a wildlife biologist who films and describes their activities in a documentary, every once in a while taking a moment to really connect with the wilderness. |
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bear
Member
USA
5803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 3:10:55 PM
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Only Crooner can say, but my interpretation of his statement was that if EI wants to submit his test results as a different type (or throw them out altogether), he wouldn't care. BTW, the EI was asked to invite people of certain (meaning sure) typing to participate in this test - when I was asked to participate, I got an individualized email, not one that was mailing listed.
As for non-attachment, that is a 5 aspect at health level 1. Average 5s are attached to their detachment, it is part of their identity (ie detachment and non-attachment are two different things).
5w4 sx/sp |
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Naranjo's Subtypes - Heart triad
