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bear
Member
USA
5802 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:48:15 AM
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see intro at top of gut triad thread.
Sorry I didn't get to this last night. The IEA got more and more intense as the weekend went on. I went to a Condon seminar yesterday that was completely emotionally draining and arrived home wiped out. There's a lot more I can write about other seminars and the Naranjo experience, but I am also expecting my father to die any day and things are a bit upside down right now. It may take me a while to get more of this experience into words. In the meantime, the info as promised...
5s generally
Are the most monochromatic - it's hard to tell the subtypes apart
5 self-pres - The most 5ish 5. Passion for sanctuary/hiddenness. Needs to be walled in, hides like a wolf in its lair. Needs to keep people out thru castle walls. Problems with expressiveness - the least expressive type.
5 social - More out there, totem. Need for super ideals. Relates to ideas, not people. Like Midas - wants everything he touches to be gold. Looking for super value, the elixir of meaning. Image oriented. So obsessed with idea loses engagement in life. NEED for extraordinary. Polarity between extraordinaryness and meaninglessness. Everything is meaningless unless ultimate meaning is found. Need for ultimate instead of what is there.
5 sexual - Not easy to see the difference at first. But if you engage them in conversation long enough, you'll find they are passionate about the one person (usually someone they can't find). Search for absolute love and it's too hard for others to pass the test. Very easily disappointed. Looking to trust in another - the one that will be with you and for you no matter what, beyond the level of marriage vows. Romantic. The non-5 among 5s, though not completely apparent until you touch the spot. Example is Chopin - he was described as like an oyster with powdered sugar inside. He was aristocratic & stiff, and open only to a few people in his life. But his feeling life was expressed through music.
6 self-pres -Fear of no protection. Warm, teddy bears, want to feel the warm embrace of family, where there are no enemies (family of utmost importance to this type). The alliance former - makes bargains "I won't hurt you, you won't hurt me", bringing people together in the presence of a common enemy. Allows too much ambiguity. Rabbit.
6 social - Cold, prussian character. Very precise. Intolerance of ambiguity. A little like 3 in efficiency. Duty is utmost - but that doesn't mean they actually do their duty, but that they are concerned about it all the time - NN to have those points of reference. Disconnected from intuition.
6 sexual - The counterphobic, turning against fear. Strength. Bulldog. More barking than biting, fierce looking. NN for intimidation. Best defense is an attack. These are the mad men who go against danger. Naranjo told a fable about a guy who bought a gun to shoot birds that were invading his house (? something like that), then accidentally shoots his guardian angel.
7 social - pure, too pure, counter-gluttony, concerned about diet, image, etc (new age fashion culture an example). "I will define myself anti-pig". They sacrifice gluttony - it's the postponement of desires for the ideal. Have gluttony for recognition of their sacrifice. Want to be seen as very, very good. Trying to be good according to social consensus. Goodness for applause. Reach ideal of perfection, but it's not inate perfectionism, it's efforted.
7 self-pres - Keeper of the castle, makes alliances, family oriented, but not in the real sense of the word. The family game can be played anywhere - "I'll be family with you and expect same of you; we band together to create a mafia." Partisanship, corruption. Self-interest is behind the alliance, but it's denied. Opportunistic. Has to make every experience into an advantage. Gluttony is excessive concern for self-preservation so they make deals at every possible opportunity. There is no conversation that doesn't lead to business - nose is always in the air for opportunity.
7 sexual - Heavenly. Glutton for things of the higher world. Dreamer. Passion to imagine something better than [stark] reality, to embellish reality. Looking at all things with optimism of someone who's in love. Too enthusiastic. NN to go for the sweetness of the imagined over ordinary reality. Need to fantasize. Rose-colored spectacles. Oral optimistic character (I think this was a Freudian reference). "I'm OK, You're OK" - which is a therapeutic theme for anyone but a 7.
5w4 sx/sp |
Edited by - bear on 09 Aug 2004 11:47:24 PM |
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brainstorm v5.4
Member
USA
1579 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:59:28 AM
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Good stuff. Thanks Bear.
brainstorm - 5w4, INTP
Never forget |
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shakti
Member
USA
10594 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 12:03:07 PM
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Thanks bear. Looking forward to the head triad info.
Anne |
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DenmarkGuy
Member
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 2:25:41 PM
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Thanks for doing this-- looking forward to his commentary on Six/CP-Six, especially.
--Peter
9w1(sx)/INFJ |
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color
Member
1002 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2004 : 4:09:52 PM
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Hi Bear,
Thanks. This is really good. Thanks for sharing.
(I get what you are saying about Naranjo's presentation, but this is a great topic this year.)
color
6 |
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Ashton
Member
USA
1624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 06:18:59 AM
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Definitely looking forward to this as well. Didn't Naranjo make a link between INTJs and Type 7? I remember coming across something like that awhile back, I just don't recall where it was.
INTJ 7w8 Sx/So/Sp
My Webpage: http://www.non-locality.net/
"The risk of life fills me with an exaggerated rapture. The fewer there are to share it, the more I like it... a duel, a danger into which I can throw myself headforemost, attracts me, moves me, intoxicates me. I am crazy for it, I love it, I adore it. I run after danger as one runs after women; I wish it never to stop. Were it always the same, it would always bring me a new pleasure."
-General Skobeleff William James, The Varieties of Religious Experience |
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Abi
Member
USA
5911 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 2:06:37 PM
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Bear, don't you just hate it when you've said you're going to post something and everybody's just waiting for it to happen? 
Standing by... |
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Larceny
Member
Niger
1562 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 4:50:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Utmost
Didn't Naranjo make a link between INTJs and Type 7?
INTJ 7w8 Sx/So/Sp
No. You're not a 7. Get over it.
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
13571 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 6:25:50 PM
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Naranjo's Subtypes - Head triad...
well i do not think what he has had to say about the other enneagram types have been all that great. So take your time bear if you need to.
I'm just a 6w7cp ENFP
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Dark Angel
Member
Hong Kong
3242 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 7:43:55 PM
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You must have shoot the bear in the heart, part of the head triad goes to heart. Only 5 is there the rest is later.
Carrie  5w6 SP/SO/SX INTJ |
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Dark Angel
Member
Hong Kong
3242 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 8:23:37 PM
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Base on the description, I could very well be SP/SX/SO instead of SP/SO/SX.
Carrie 5w6 SP/SO/SX INTJ |
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 8:25:34 PM
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Type 5 is intense! I've always thought this and can say I'm very attracted to this in people. I honestly relate best with the sexual 5 on here than the sexual 4. I'm negative and have negative preference -move toward it so yes for 4 but definatley am in deep need for connection with one person, soul-mate that I will not marry until I find it. Luckily, I've met my match.
Crooner - I'VE ALWAYS thought of you as intense! Your deep. Your scoring high on Mercurial that time too made sense to me.
4 sx/sp/so INFP SSS/Merc/Dramatic/Self-Confident Style
Persona is SSS/SCS |
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Crooner
Member
USA
5406 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 8:37:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
5 self-pres - The most 5ish 5. Passion for sanctuary/hiddenness. Needs to be walled in, hides like a wolf in its lair. Needs to keep people out thru castle walls. Problems with expressiveness - the least expressive type.
Not necessarily me, though I’ve called myself Self Pres. I’ve confused Self-Pres Five characteristics with general issues, re: Existentialism: “A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe…”
Hence, my fascination with Clint Eastwood’s spaghetti westerns and Mel Gibson’s Mad Max movies.
For me, it’s all about my fascination with Order vs. Chaos… Entropy vs. Counter-Entropy. Life evolving from single-celled organisms to human beings is definitely a counter-entropic process. Humans seem to be isolated pockets of “disentropy” in a Universe characterized by trends toward increasing entropy.
I’m also fascinated with the question of determinism vs. randomness. No surprise that I became a statistician.
Finally, we seem to have nihilistic Fives on one end of the Five spectrum. Then at the other end, we have Fives like Einstein who did not believe that “God plays dice with the Universe.” Also, in class, Russ Hudson cited the rare and delicate balance of environmental conditions that support earthly life, and how insane it is not to believe there isn’t an intelligent design behind all this.
quote:
5 social… Looking for super value, the elixir of meaning… NEED for extraordinary. Polarity between extraordinaryness and meaninglessness… Everything is meaningless unless ultimate meaning is found. Need for ultimate instead of what is there.
Hence, my fascination with ego-transcendence and knowing Ultimate Reality directly.
A Phobic Social Six political activist just threatened to kick the stuffing out of me for my explanation of Buddhist Emptiness and how everything can ultimately be seen as empty of meaning. His interpretation that I’m nihilistically saying “nothing matters” seems threatening to him.
quote:
5 sexual - Not easy to see the difference at first. But if you engage them in conversation long enough, you'll find they are passionate about the one person (usually someone they can't find). Search for absolute love and it's too hard for others to pass the test. Very easily disappointed. Looking to trust in another - the one that will be with you and for you no matter what, beyond the level of marriage vows. Romantic. The non-5 among 5s, though not completely apparent until you touch the spot. Example is Chopin - he was described as like an oyster with powdered sugar inside. He was aristocratic & stiff, and open only to a few people in his life. But his feeling life was expressed through music.
Dunno about Chopin’s music. I sing the old torch songs made famous by Sinatra.
Crooner
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Crooner
Member
USA
5406 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 8:45:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dee
Crooner - I'VE ALWAYS thought of you as intense! Your deep.
Thanks! It’s goes with my subtype.
Russ Hudson says: A Sexual Five is someone who seems like an Eight... but not.
- Crooner
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Synergy
Member
USA
4393 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 11:50:12 PM
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Interesting. The 7 descriptions don't resonate at all. Thought I'd take a gander at 8, and they're a lot closer.
(My sympathies, bear, on dealing with your father's imminent passing.) |
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bear
Member
USA
5802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 11:58:50 PM
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Thanks, Syn. Keep in mind that Naranjo is really describing the underlying fixation, what he calls the "neurotic need", though perhaps you are an 8 after all! I found this description of the sexual 5 to be the closest boiled-down description of me I've ever heard. Also, in chatting with people whom I know to have very deep E knowledge/experience, we found the gist of these generally to have real valuable nuggets in them. He seems to nail a very specific aspect of each type, though no doubt some are probably better than others. The 5s seem very dead on to me as far as the people that have been on the board traditionally. I also found SO 1, SP 2 and SP 4 very pointed.
5w4 sx/sp |
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Synergy
Member
USA
4393 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:04:59 AM
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Jase says I am NOT an 8, despite having a huge 8 wing, so I have to bow to his typing skills (which I find more valuable than the experts many times). 
Seriously, though, the Enneagram as a model seems to be the most convoluted, confusing, sand-shifting typology I've ever come across. I'd never spend thousands of dollars to attend an E workshop for precisely this reason. You read Jaxon-Bear, and think "wtf?!", especially when his descriptions fly in the face of of other authors. Then, you read Palmer, who has her own particular take... It's just insane. And I've never seen a model where people can parade around as a type they are obviously not (in any Enneagram system), or one that many can't "see" themselves in very readily (type confusion).
I've not seen this among Oldham, Ansir, or MB.
<steps off soapbox>
I appreciate you sharing your insights, though, bear. It takes a great deal of time to do this (typing, condensing, etc.), especially when dealing with emotional stuff on top of it. |
Edited by - Synergy on 10 Aug 2004 12:05:53 AM |
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mikesilb
Member
USA
814 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:07:17 AM
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Hey everyone,
I'm a bit on the tired side right now, but possibly tomorrow or the day after, I would really like to compare these descriptions to the R+H instinct descriptions. As a 6, there has always been this type of mismatch where according to Naranjo/Ichazo/Palmer etc., I am considered a SP 6 (due to my phobicity). However, according to R+H's definitions, I am a SO 6 (SO/SX). I have never been satisfied w/ this discrepancy between these two different schools of thought, and I'd like to bring this issue up for discussion. More about this tomorrow...
Mike
SO/SX/SP 6w7 |
Edited by - mikesilb on 10 Aug 2004 12:08:13 AM |
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Shapeshifter
Member
1560 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 12:23:29 AM
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Social 5 is feeling pretty right to me. Or sexual 5, although that one sounds more like a Riso-Hudson 4.
JB
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hijaochun
Member
1493 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 05:21:48 AM
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Thanks for info, Bear...
..And I see my Ennea twin has already beat me to it! Was just about to go on my usual rant about the 6SP /6 SO disconnect...
quote:
Cold, prussian character. Very precise. Intolerance of ambiguity. A little like 3 in efficiency. Duty is utmost - but that doesn't mean they actually do their duty, but that they are concerned about it all the time - NN to have those points of reference. Disconnected from intuition.
I DO have issues with duty, especially in the social realm, but other than that I identify much more with the 6 SP description.
ENFP, sp-last, 6w7 (um...Yeah!)
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Where the light is brightest the shadows are deepest. - Wolfgang Goethe.
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Tigrrr
Member
Austria
375 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 08:33:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
5 sexual
I feel so monochromatic .. the description is dead on, though. Thanks bear! And sp 6 sounds a lot like one of my closest friends. Fuzzy warm teddy-bear indeed.
~~~
T 5w4 sx/sp |
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Val
Member
USA
4990 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 10:24:24 AM
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Hija, Mike
The SO6 description is dead-on for me. Sometimes I'm outside myself watching and amazed at how stiff and brusque I am. The SP is my soft side, more of my inner character. Combining the two makes me a person who desperately wants everyone to get along to create a family-like atmosphere that I can feel safe in and belong to. Either way, it gets easier for me to see how I mistook myself for an SP 5w4 in the beginning.
I think what's been said elsewhere is right. There's a leaning to 6w5 over 6w7 here and a preference for the SO/SP stacking.
Like you guys, though, I'd love to explore the variant discrepancies.
There's so much of a range within type 6 (just spent 2 weeks in the company of my ESTP counter-phobic 6 boss, SO/SX) that I wouldn't immediately worry if I didn't see myself immediately. I think the Self-Pres 6 descriptions are conflated with general phobic 6-ishness. I don't think either of you are SP, though.
6w5 so/sp INfP
"It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities without your help." ~Unknown |
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oddball
Member
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 10:40:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by entre1
Utmost reminds me of a male version of Synergy...with slightly more spunk, no doubt attributed to his youth.
He is also similar to Surefoot/TheRevolutionary.
He writes very much like a 7w8 SX.
Entre, I'm beginning to think you are 7w8 SP - you are always looking for an opportunity, you have a quick mind and I remember reading on this board 7w8 SP can behave like eights. I remember reading something you wrote regarding coins - how you were going to either register for business or something like that and other things you've wrote denotes a 7 SP albeit eight wing.
Plus you have so much energy, you've said it your self. Most eights that I know are very easy to underestimate, usually they're slow but consistent, stay with things for the long haul. Riso's descprition of the eight is more of the eight sexual variant. |
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mikesilb
Member
USA
814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 5:07:07 PM
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Hey everyone,
I'm copying this from the "On all 6s" thread. It is pertinent to describing how I feel about the Naranjo subtype descriptions (with respect to getting down to the essential differences between the variety of 6s out there).
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quote:
I think that the key in describing the various shades and colors of 6s lies in describing (in an extremely accurate manner) all of the wing-stacking combinations of the 6.
One thing which I have not had the opportunity to do yet is to comment in Bear's thread on Naranjo's subtype talk(s) on how the classical subtype definitions for 6s appear to be totally different from R+Hs 6 variant descriptions.
I believe that R+H's variant descriptions for 6s are MUCH MORE in the general spirit/definition of what it means to be a "social", "self-pres", or "sexual" type based on how these three generic types serve as generic survival mechanisms.
I also believe that Naranjo's subtype descriptions might be 'cleaner' in the sense that the three types (warmth, duty/prussian, and strength/beauty) are quite destinctive overall. HOWEVER, in order to make this so 'clean', I believe that there are HUGE misplacings/miscategorizations that are taking place in order to allow these 'clean' subtypes to be observed.
I truly believe that MANY of Naranjo's SP 6s are really acting 'warm' and 'ingratiating' because their fear at their very root lies at the heart of the SOCIAL instinct. Sure, some 'Naranjo SP 6s' may very well be SP-dominant. However, many 'Naranjo SP 6s' (like myself) might be simply acting 'warm' because of a basic ADAPTIBILITY that the 6 feels needs to take place in order to ACCOMODATE themselves (in 9-ish fashion) to the world. To me, this is the SOCIAL instinct talking!!!
Anyway, to make a long story short, I think that there are GROSS miscategorizations for 6s. I think that to get into why so many people are clumped into this type, I believe that the first step to do this is to recategorize what each of the wing-stacking combinations' Basic Fear, Desire, and Motivation are. Only by doing this in a way that is CONSISTENT with all definitions (i.e. the social instinct, etc.) can we really begin to understand how 6-ness really works.
Mike
SO/SX/SP 6w7 |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
13571 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2004 : 7:24:16 PM
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i don't sound much like any of Naranjo's subtypes. i think he sucks.
I'm just a 6w7cp ENFP
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Crooner
Member
USA
5406 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 1:56:53 PM
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Bumped up one more time since Anne started
a separate thread for Logical Lee's
Social 6w5 vs. Social 5w6 discussion. |
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Topic |
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Naranjo's Subtypes - Head triad
