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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5823 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 12:58:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
I did a good bit of reading in Mein Kampf last night. He's all over the place with wild contradictions. One moment championing the individual and the next, calling for unified 'this' or 'that'. One moment railing against "the masses", and the next calling for a "popular" movement. He seems ultimately to be building an argument for centralized power (and seems to feel he is "chosen" for such a position, which doesn't sound very 6-ish to me) but trying his best to couch all this in words that won't make him appear "too megalomaniacal" while he uses the book as a tool for his rise. I think it is evident that he clearly favors "the individual". And I see someone who's challenging (or taunting) his audience, as if to say "are you a coward or will you join me in the biggest battle of our lives?" He seems to want to recruit the meanest, most fiery-eyed and steely-willed soldiers attainable.
Here are some quotes from the book:
_____________________________________
...
Well, I praise you for your dedication.
You have to know that his speeches are full of 8ish platitudes like *the strongest will survive* and like *the future german youth should be fast (agile) as greyhounds, ductile (tough) like leather and hard as steel by Krupp.*
He just introjected (defense mechanism of the E4) his 8ish style from his father and from 8ish sides of times of war and the 8ish hardness sides of the militaristic times. It was an image and propaganda thing to manipulate the feelings of the germans.
AGAIN and AGAIN for you:
The FATHER of Adolf Hitler was a E8 and he wanted to have a strong son.
But he blamed his son Adolf Hitler for his psychical and physical WEAKNESS. HE knocked the stuffing out of his son Adolf Hitler again and again because he was a mama's boy , because he was a linnet with fine legs and arms and a skin like a woman, because he was not maskuline, because Adolf Hitler ressembled his mother , who was a weak and submissive person.
AND A LITTLE EIGHT would never be esteemed as weak from any father of this world and if so ADOLF HITLER DID NOT REACT LIKE A LITTLE EIGHT (would do it) because a E8 WOULD show his strength !!
But Hitler simulated illness ( he was the peaky , weakly and delicate type) in order to avoid the anger of his father and ran in the arms of his mother so to say..
Near and by his mother Adolf Hitler found LOVE and admiration.His rough father gave him cruelty and too much disrespect but Hitler respected his father and hated himself because he was as weak like his mother.
During the whole first world war he carried a Photo of his mother in his pocket.
A key question is if his love for his mother means that he had a really positive identification with her like the E3 or if his refuse of his mother on the other side because he don't wanted to be as weak as her caused a negative identification with the mother like in the case of the E4.
HE WAS NO EIGHT . THAT IS FOR SURE! |
Edited by - Glasgow on 02 Oct 2007 3:44:23 PM |
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Veiled One
Member
5590 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 1:05:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
And VO,
For you to say that Hitler bores you to tears is another of your lovely displays of haughty arrogance and absolute assumed superiority. As you said earlier today to Dreamy4 (in another thread), leave this silly thread to we simpletons who are somehow still dumb enough to be entertained by this hilariously insignificant "Hitler" person. We are truly bugs for you to squash.
Yes, I think I am going to leave this thread alone now. I am not inspired enough to finish the rest of his book.
8w7 soc/sx, because sexual fives suck |
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Analog_Music
Member
Borneo
2370 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 1:21:48 PM
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It's nice to work with absolutes.
For example: he's dead.
His scheme was so brilliant that it actually included this entire discussion thread. Alas, Hitler's all encompasing grasp extends to the next millenium. Congratulations, old chap.
--->A_M<---
My Type My Music My Book
A flippant permutation of anarchistic drivel. |
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lilalove
Member
Haiti
13571 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 1:38:24 PM
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Hitler had an obsession with architectural detail.
It showed up in many of his paintings.
I found his work to be poor quality. Common stuff you see at every art fare in every city.
And! I hear that the human skin lampshades were not real. Which was a let down because those sounded gruesomely unique.
If we were not all so interested in ourselves, life would be so uninteresting that none of us would be able to endure it.
- Arthur Schopenhauer
3w4 sx |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 1:47:25 PM
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Glasgow,
Let me try to understand. If I was an 8 and let's say I'm 7 years old and I have a horribly physically abusive father. I would then, as an E8, challenge my father on a daily basis to beat the living hell out of me?
That makes sense now. I'm starting to see your point: If he was an 8, Hitler would have had no concern for his physical safety and would have just done things to taunt his father, even though there was absolutely no way that, as a child, he could match his father's physical strength. And this is because, even at 7 years old, an 8 must show dominance and this takes precedence over getting beaten up by someone that there is no way to subdue. Yes, OK. I see.
So then I can conclude that 8s, as children, have no interest in their physical survival and safety. I will carefully consider these points. You're very good.
********* / *
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Edited by - dfgray44 on 02 Oct 2007 1:48:47 PM |
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5823 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 2:08:29 PM
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dfgray44, don't make a fool of yourself.
You know that you are perverting the context..
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Edited by - Glasgow on 02 Oct 2007 2:12:16 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 2:12:39 PM
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I'm starting to get that feeling again.
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5823 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 2:41:53 PM
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Yeah, dfgray44 , it's a good thing that you learn something about Hitler's E-Type. 
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transformer
Member
1300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 2:47:51 PM
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Blue Lamp,
U can tell Aldolf Hitler wasnt a 7 simply by looking at the man.
Its that simple.
Typing Aldolf Hitler as a 7 is without a doubt the absolute WORST typing I have ever seen in this board. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 3:11:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by transformer
Blue Lamp,
U can tell Aldolf Hitler wasnt a 7 simply by looking at the man.
Its that simple.
Typing Aldolf Hitler as a 7 is without a doubt the absolute WORST typing I have ever seen in this board.
Type 4 is similarly absurd. All of that military micro-management in a depressed, gloomy, heavy-hearted 4?
Glasgow's Adventures In Modern Typing
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Bluelamp
Member
USA
805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 3:47:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by transformer
Blue Lamp,
U can tell Aldolf Hitler wasnt a 7 simply by looking at the man.
Its that simple.
Typing Aldolf Hitler as a 7 is without a doubt the absolute WORST typing I have ever seen in this board.
You need something much much better than phototyping when it comes to a psychopath and alleged actor. There are times when it's hard to tell a male from a female. My best guess (and it's only a guess) would be 6, but you aren't doing a very good job of convincing me of my own opinion. The results for correlating a 6 with the MBTI was no major correlation. XXXX seems like the best MBTI type to describe the 6. Perhaps Hitler is not too far away from any type? Perhaps he's just too erratic and contradictory to be typed?
If you really insist on just phototyping, certainly don't look at staged pictures or speeches. Hitler certainly looks more 7 than Mussolini in this picture:
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Edited by - Bluelamp on 02 Oct 2007 3:50:59 PM |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15353 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 12:20:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by transformer
Aldolf Hitler is not the same type as Vito Corelone. Period. In terms of speaking styles, he had more in common with other cp charasmatic 6w5's like Malcolm, not quiet and menacing like John Wayne, or Darth Vader, both 8w9's.
I agree. My grandfather is an 8w9, and I can't picture him yelling through a microphone, especially in speech after speech. Picture Johnny Cash doing something like that. Doesn't seem right, does it? 8w9's are very matter of fact. Even when they get mad, it doesn't have that same urgent flavor.
"For She Was Beautiful
Her Beauty Made The Bright World Dim
And Everything Beside Seemed Like The
Fleeting Image of Shade" - Percy Bysshe Shelley
7w6 Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15353 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 1:07:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
I did a good bit of reading in Mein Kampf last night. He's all over the place with wild contradictions. One moment championing the individual and the next, calling for unified 'this' or 'that'. One moment railing against "the masses", and the next calling for a "popular" movement.
And that doesn't seem sixish to you?
quote:
He seems ultimately to be building an argument for centralized power (and seems to feel he is "chosen" for such a position, which doesn't sound very 6-ish to me) but trying his best to couch all this in words that won't make him appear "too megalomaniacal" while he uses the book as a tool for his rise.
Okay, I see your point there.
quote:
I think it is evident that he clearly favors "the individual". And I see someone who's challenging (or taunting) his audience, as if to say "are you a coward or will you join me in the biggest battle of our lives?" He seems to want to recruit the meanest, most fiery-eyed and steely-willed soldiers attainable.
Not cp 6 to you?
And many of the quotes you posted from Mein Kampf do sound sixish to me. They don't sound regular sixish, but they do sound very counterphobic to me. Counterphobics aren't all about unity, you know, they are very much about fighting for their perceived rights. They are also very focused on not appearing "weak". Weak is a big deal to cp 6's. They AREN'T. Never, no way. Don't call them weak.
quote:
A man does not die for something which he himself does not believe in.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
You don't think a counterphobic 6 would feel that way?
I'm not saying Hitler was a cp 6, but I do lean that way. In any case, the quotes don't seem more eightish than sixish to me.
quote:
Any alliance whose purpose is not the intention to wage war is senseless and useless.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
I actually think cp 6 is more about "waging war" than 8. Eights just want to do what they want. If you are in their way, they will move you. Cp 6's are on the offensive....where's the challenge? Where's the war to be waged? Whose butt needs to be kicked? You're thinking of it in terms of fear, but the thing is counterphobics approach the whole world as a battlefield. They will track down any threat and wipe it out. Racism is not un-sixish. (Not to say that it's a distinguishing sixish quality, or that only 6's can be racists, not at all. But it's not a strike against 6, for sure.)
quote:
Armies for the preservation of peace do not exist; they exist only for the triumphant exertion of war.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow.
Adolf Hitler
Mein Kampf
Yeah. I don't see an 8 saying that, actually. On the other hand, one of my cp 6w5 guy's favorite quotes is "Look to the sky just before you die. It's the last time you will, mf" Uhm, yeah. And he's actually a sweet, quiet person, for the most part. He knows it's kinda weird to feel that way, but that's just it, they are about the "triumphant exertion of war". I see it in my mom. I see it in cp 6 friends. I see it in myself (my wing). It's like, "Don't [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] with ME, I'll take you DOWN! Think ya can? Think ya can? C'mon! MAKE MY DAY already!" It doesn't feel like fear. It feels like righteous indignation. Justice. Then you might realize, looking back, that is was all your own head trip. There was no justice to be fought for, really. You overreacted. Oops.  I can see Hitler's whole thing as a giant overreaction that was allowed to spin way out of control, because it struck a chord in the public and got carried along farther and farther. Look at what's going on in the U.S. right now. Is that eightish behavior, you think?
Okay, I'm on a tangent now. 
"For She Was Beautiful
Her Beauty Made The Bright World Dim
And Everything Beside Seemed Like The
Fleeting Image of Shade" - Percy Bysshe Shelley
7w6 Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15353 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 1:09:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bluelamp
The interest in art seems to indicate an SFP and his abilities with large crowds and political party members would seem to indicate ESFP aka a 7 (ESFP is the MBTI type most correlated with a 7, in fact it has the highest correlation of any MBTI type with any Enneagram type).
Does not mean that all ESFP's are 7's, or that all 7's are ESFP's, though.
"For She Was Beautiful
Her Beauty Made The Bright World Dim
And Everything Beside Seemed Like The
Fleeting Image of Shade" - Percy Bysshe Shelley
7w6 Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15353 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 1:11:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
For you to say that Hitler bores you to tears is another of your lovely displays of haughty arrogance and absolute assumed superiority.
It sounded like a personal opinion to me.
"For She Was Beautiful
Her Beauty Made The Bright World Dim
And Everything Beside Seemed Like The
Fleeting Image of Shade" - Percy Bysshe Shelley
7w6 Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style
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Bluelamp
Member
USA
805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 1:49:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
Does not mean that all ESFP's are 7's, or that all 7's are ESFP's, though.
No but Hitler being an ESFP is going to seem just as strange to people (including me) as Hitler being a 7. So whether ESFP, 7, or both it's still strange for the same reasons. |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 3:36:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
For you to say that Hitler bores you to tears is another of your lovely displays of haughty arrogance and absolute assumed superiority.
It sounded like a personal opinion to me.
"For She Was Beautiful
Her Beauty Made The Bright World Dim
And Everything Beside Seemed Like The
Fleeting Image of Shade" - Percy Bysshe Shelley
7w6 Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Idiosyncratic Style
I think VO was making a show of yawning while we little people in the lower gallery bicker amongst ourselves over personalities that are "clearly not as interesting" as who she would deign to speak of. I can relate to her haughtiness though. I feel the same way plenty of the time.
I'm ultimately not particularly interested in Hitler either, but enjoy the sport of these debates, and because I had a firm opinion on his type, that triggered my gamesmanship.
And I appreciate your comments on the Mein Kampf quotes. I would just reply generally that I think if you read the speeches of people that we would concur are "actual" 8s, you'd see some similarities to those quotes. There'd be a combination of a call-to-arms and then appeals to higher ideals. He is a difficult case because, as has been mentioned, he could be retro-diagnosable as having had paranoid schizophrenia or borderline personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder or some combination of these. [I would lean toward BPD as the main condition overlapping whatever his E-type was.] And to the degree that these conditions cut across the grain of his E-type, they'll confuse the issue of typing him.
Below are the main criteria for a BPD diagnosis. If you think about how these symptoms agree/disagree with E6 or E8, you can see a lot of room for typing confusion. And there's a fair amount of the below description that pulls in some E4 issues, which explains Glasgow's confusion.
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1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment such as lying, stealing, temper tantrums, etc. [Not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, substance abuse, reckless driving, overspending, stealing, binge eating). [Again, not including suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5]
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness, worthlessness.
8. Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights, getting mad over something small).
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
It has been noted that there is probably no other mental disorder about which so many articles and books have been written, yet about which so little is known based on empirical research.
Studies suggest that individuals with BPD tend to experience frequent, strong and long-lasting states of aversive tension, often triggered by perceived rejection, being alone, or perceived failure. Individuals with BPD may show lability (changeability) between anger and anxiety or between depression and anxiety and temperamental sensitivity to emotive stimuli.
The negative emotional states particularly associated with BPD have been grouped into four categories: extreme feelings in general; feelings of destructiveness or self-destructiveness; feelings of fragmentation or lack of identity; and feelings of victimization.
Individuals with BPD can be very sensitive to the way others treat them, reacting strongly to perceived criticism or hurtfulness. Their feelings about others often shift from positive to negative, generally after a disappointment or perceived threat of losing someone. Self-image can also change rapidly from extremely positive to extremely negative. Impulsive behaviors are common, including alcohol or drug abuse, unsafe sex, gambling, and recklessness in general. Attachment studies suggest individuals with BPD, while being high in intimacy- or novelty-seeking, can be hyper-alert to signs of rejection or not being valued and tend towards insecure, ambivalent, preoccupied or fearful attitudes towards relationships. They tend to view the world generally as dangerous and malevolent, and themselves as powerless, vulnerable, unacceptable and unsure in self-identity.
Individuals with BPD are often described, including by some mental health professionals (and in the DSM-IV), as deliberately manipulative or difficult, but analyses and findings generally trace behaviors to inner pain and turmoil, powerlessness and defensive reactions, or limited coping and communication skills. There has been limited research on family members' understanding of borderline personality disorder and the extent of burden or negative emotion experienced or expressed by family members. Parents of individuals with BPD have been reported to show co-existing extremes of over-involvement and under-involvement. BPD has been linked to somewhat increased levels of chronic stress and conflict in romantic relationships, decreased satisfaction of romantic partners, abuse, and unwanted pregnancy; these links may largely be general to personality disorder and subsyndromal problems, but such issues are commonly raised in support groups and published literature for partners of individuals with BPD.
Suicidal or self-harming behavior is one of the core diagnostic criteria in DSM IV-TR, and management of and recovery from this can be complex and challenging. The suicide rate is approximately eight to ten percent. The most recognized form of self-injury is automutilation (cutting the self), usually of the arms, but often other areas such as the legs, chest, belly, and face. Self-injury attempts are highly common among patients and may or may not be carried out with suicidal intent. BPD is often characterized by multiple low lethality suicide attempts triggered by seemingly minor incidents, and less commonly by high lethality attempts that are attributed to impulsiveness or comorbid major depression, with interpersonal stressors appearing to be particularly common triggers. Ongoing family interactions and associated vulnerabilities can lead to self-destructive behavior. Stressful life events related to sexual abuse have been found to be a particular trigger for suicide attempts by adolescents with a BPD diagnosis.
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 02:35:28 AM
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You've really run for the hills with my bpd comment.
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 09:05:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
You've really run for the hills with my bpd comment.
I've always assumed that Hitler had some significant mental disorder or combination of such. Your BPD seems like a good bet. I thank you for it. And I take it straight into battle, not to the hills. I'm assuming that I am the victor here. If I'm not, I have enough food and ammunition to sustain the battle for many months. I'm waiting for the enemy to come back down, out of the hills. They have not shown up lately. 
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Will
Member
889 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 5:40:05 PM
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I don't think the problem is about Hitler knowledge but about enneagram knowledge. 4 won't have enough physical energy to stand as a dictator. 6w5 have mental centre segregated. It means when they use it they loose their capacity. E6 have to mode (a bit like E3 and E9) the thinking mode (self doubt) and the normal mode where they use instinct centre and emotional centre scrambled (like E2 and E1). The primary centre for 6w7 is instinct centre and for 6w5 the emotional centre. so the hypothesis of an cp6w5 who manipulate others emotion while having enough physical energy is good.
Just to me I see more gut then emotion in him. So i tend to say 1w2. But I agree that cp6w5 is a very good hypothesis either. Between those 2, it's not 100% clear to me. I could change my mind.
Will 5w6 Sp/Sx/So |
Edited by - Will on 05 Oct 2007 01:09:00 AM |
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transformer
Member
1300 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 11:13:47 PM
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Will has seconded my original belief for Hitler:
cp6w5 or 1w2 |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11061 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 11:19:45 PM
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If the contention is that 8w9s are not capable of the displays of fury seen in Hitler's speeches, would we say that this behavior is a comfortable fit for 6w5? I would think not.
I could much more easily see a 1w2 getting that angry.
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 11:39:06 PM
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quote:
I'm assuming that I am the victor here. If I'm not, I have enough food and ammunition to sustain the battle for many months. I'm waiting for the enemy to come back down, out of the hills.
How insignificant.
quote:
I could much more easily see a 1w2 getting that angry.
You forget about the fiery Malcolm X, Bobby Kennedy, Che Guevarra, or Joe McCarthy.
You actually think Hitler is closer in vibe to Al Gore, Ghandi and Martha Stewart. Gimme a break.
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transformer
Member
1300 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 11:43:34 PM
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Well Al Gore, Ghandi, and Martha Stewart belong are 1w9's.
But, at least you recognize that Malcolm X was a cp6w5, and that 6w5's can get very emotional in their speeches. |
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 12:39:00 AM
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As can other types. I think what you mean to say is that a 6w5's emotions, like X or Hitler, were particular to a specific context in those speeches-- namely, xenophobia-- unlike that of other types.
quote:
6w5's can get very emotional in their speeches.
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Topic |
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What is Hitler's type?
