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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15282 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 12:12:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I think a better case can be made that Hitler and Germany were primarily motivated by resentment and anger.
Anger can be defined as the belief that an injustice has been committed against myself or others, joined with a desire that such injustice be punished.
That Hitler and Germany believed that injustice had been and was being committed against Germany can easily be documented.
Anger is the recognition that some injustice has been committed, together with a desire for revenge.
I can't think of a historical figure or historical situation that better supports the Enneagram theory of motivation. The fixation and vice of Type One: resentment and anger, fit Hitler, and Germany at that historical point, extremely well.
Except that definition of "anger" is more characteristic of E8 (fixation of Vengeance).
[Stormy] |
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ptypes
Member
6040 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 12:51:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
I think a better case can be made that Hitler and Germany were primarily motivated by resentment and anger.
Anger can be defined as the belief that an injustice has been committed against myself or others, joined with a desire that such injustice be punished.
That Hitler and Germany believed that injustice had been and was being committed against Germany can easily be documented.
Anger is the recognition that some injustice has been committed, together with a desire for revenge.
I can't think of a historical figure or historical situation that better supports the Enneagram theory of motivation. The fixation and vice of Type One: resentment and anger, fit Hitler, and Germany at that historical point, extremely well.
Except that definition of "anger" is more characteristic of E8 (fixation of Vengeance).
[Stormy]
I always enjoy it when you pick apart other people's arguments. |
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Zapperbazzer
Member
1008 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 1:49:36 PM
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"We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down." Adolf Hilter
Hitler spoke of a war against weak systems, against weak races fought to stamp out weakness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BNucqbm_ZY |
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bear
Member
USA
5781 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 10:41:58 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by dfgray44
The pictures of Stalin are not the same gesture (as Hitler's), per se, but in contradiction to your comment, it's not difficult to find photos of a seated Stalin with his hands protecting his crotch, and it's important to look at those shots and notice that they span quite a long period through his life, indicating it's a natural move for him. Again, you can say it's a different gesture (from Hitler's), but yet its apparent consistency, over time, means you can't just write it off as 'non-8-ish', if Stalin is a prime E8 exemplar.
Part of the reason I'm getting the fuzz is that Stalin's gesture is quite different, it's not the gesture I'm saying is non-8. You're arguing a point I didn't make and I think you're exaggerating about the volume of crossed hands pix of Stalin's.
As is the case with a fair number of the most famous examples of certain types, I think Hitler is an exception along a few of the typical type indicators. Reading his own comments, though, shows a person whose superego dictates the supremacy of animal strength. The triumph of the Will is what's important to him, not the triumph of the Cause (6), or of the Aesthetic (4).
Actually, there is a tremendous amount of triumph of aesthetic - it's a thread that runs throughout his life. And I put Will in the 6 camp - in fact his immense false will is one of the things that I think most tags him as a 6.
Koolkat's assertion of Charles Coughlin (the "radio priest") as a 6w5 is correct. Compare his oratory expression of fury to Hitler's, and Hitler's 8-ness is more apparent. Some common 6-indicators (in oratory style) are full body swings from side-to-side (symbolically representing E6 ambivalence) and tilting and general mobility of the head (indicative of same).
I still don't see 8-ness - I see some attempt to look like 8-ness, but not the real mccoy.
Now, to the Big Claim Of The Day....:
The classic E8 dictator (Mao, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam, etc) is probably the most sensitive human that exists.
Thanks for posting that article - very interesting. This is not a point that is new to me, clearly indicative of the 2 nested in the 8.
One of the things I'm specifically calling your attention to is the similarity between Stalin's reaction to his wife's death and that of Hitler's reaction to the death of Geli Raubal, especially since you emphasized Geli's death in arguing for Hitler-as-a-4. For Stalin, his wife's death was a radical psychic upheaval (seemingly much more radical than it would be for any 'loving husband'); besides being described as despondent, depressed, emotionally ambivalent and rageful, it was this event that caused him to formally offer to resign his position as leader of Russia. No small thing there.
It is different. Hitler puts on a show, but doesn't want it mentioned. The fact that they're both despondent doesn't really say anything about type, but putting effigies all over the place and demanding her name not be mentioned has a strange dramatic flair to it. I don't necessarily think Hitler's deal w/Geli narrows in exclusively on 4, it was a response to lovex's question. FWIW, I do believe that Hitler was 4-6-8 or 6-4-8 - I am not convinced he's a 4, but I think it's highly likely. Unless I were to take up reading a dozen books on the guy, I wouldn't get close to drawing a conclusion about it... other than he is clearly not an 8. He's not an 8 in so many ways that it's hard for me to see why it's a possibility for others (what the_eye just posted looks more like a list for 6 than 8 IMO). Most of these 8 despots have 4 & 6 in their fix.
All of these men (the dictators and the crime bosses) constellate the Eternal Feminine. Femininity, as a self-expression in their daily lives, is purely rejected and placed absolutely outside-the-self, existing only as an inspirational star in their heavens; thus, when the star dies out, it seems that their planet will die.
And therein lies one of the big problems with 8. Hitler was just way too feminine for the part.
The problem with the right man theory is that although it fits 8 nicely, I know people of many different types who could all fall under the description (1,3,6 especially). In a strong patriarchal culture, anyone with an unhealthy upbringing will have a huge dose of that.
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15282 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 03:28:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
Now, to the Big Claim Of The Day....:
The classic E8 dictator (Mao, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam, etc) is probably the most sensitive human that exists.
Thanks for posting that article - very interesting. This is not a point that is new to me, clearly indicative of the 2 nested in the 8.
Seems more like the E5 nested in the E8.
[Stormy] |
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bear
Member
USA
5781 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 07:48:57 AM
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| i'd go for sx/soc 1 before i'd go for 8 for sure. but 1s are usually pretty driven, and there's no evidence of that in his early life. my aunt was a sx1 who spent a lot of time in public service, but i never got to see her in that arena - i'm sure she was a force to be reckoned with. she definitely had a lot of 8ish qualities, but you could see in her body that she was always wound tight. H's big 1 component is one reason I think 4 is a valid possibility for him. |
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Oneness
Member
Australia
418 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 09:29:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
Wanting health care reform and a strong environmental movement isn't quite the same thing as invading independent foreign countries out of revenge and fear.
I think a better case can be made that Hitler and Germany were primarily motivated by resentment and anger.
Anger can be defined as the belief that an injustice has been committed against myself or others, joined with a desire that such injustice be punished.
That Hitler and Germany believed that injustice had been and was being committed against Germany can easily be documented.
Anger is the recognition that some injustice has been committed, together with a desire for revenge.
I can't think of a historical figure or historical situation that better supports the Enneagram theory of motivation. The fixation and vice of Type One: resentment and anger, fit Hitler, and Germany at that historical point, extremely well.
But resentment will not normally lead to violence and war. The reasons that you mention could apply to many different types. You relate obsessiveness to 1's, whereas I'm more inclined to think that aspergers is more applicable in his case. And aspergers is more likely to effect 5's and 6's than let's say 8's. I really can't see aspects of his personality, communications or decisions that are in any way E1'ish. 1's are also not typically seen as ruthless opportunists, more likely the opposite is usually the case.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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the_eye
Member
Romania
5063 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 09:39:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
But resentment will not normally lead to violence and war.
Won't anger lead to violence and war?
The reasons that you mention could apply to many different types. You relate obsessiveness to 1's, whereas I'm more inclined to think that aspergers is more applicable in his case. And aspergers is more likely to effect 5's and 6's than let's say 8's. I really can't see aspects of his personality, communications or decisions that are in any way E1'ish. 1's are also not typically seen as ruthless opportunists, more likely the opposite is usually the case.
So you think Hitler had Asperger??
This thread is getting more and more interesting...
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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ptypes
Member
6040 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 10:20:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
i'd go for sx/soc 1 before i'd go for 8 for sure. but 1s are usually pretty driven, and there's no evidence of that in his early life.
There is evidence of Hitler's drivenness in the biographical works (some of which are on the internet) of Hitler's boyhood friend, August Kubizek:
http://www.adolfhitler.dk/new_page_4.htm
"Adolf Hitler's only boyhood friend, August Kubizek, recalled Hitler as a shy, reticent young man, yet he was able to burst into hysterical fits of anger towards those who disagreed with him. The two became inseparable during these early years and Kubizek turned out to be a patient listener.
"Kubizek, then sixteen, first met Adolf Hitler, fifteen, late in 1904 when both were competing for standing room at the opera. He was a good audience for Hitler, who often rambled for hours about his hopes and dreams. Sometimes Hitler even gave speeches complete with wild hand gestures to his audience of one. Hitler would only tolerate approval from his friend and could not stand to be corrected, a personality trait he had shown in high school and as a younger boy as well.
"Kubizek later recalled his friend this way:
'"There he stood, this pallid, skinny youth, with the first dark brown showing on his upper lip, in his shabby pepper-and-salt suit, threadbare at the elbows and collar, with his eyes glued to some architectural detail, analyzing the style, criticizing or praising the work, disapproving of the material - all this with such thoughtfulness and such expert knowledge as though he were the builder and would have to pay for every shortcoming out of his own pocket."'
"Then one day in 1905 the pair went to see a performance of Wagner's Rienzi at the Linz Memorial Theater. This became a decisive event for the teenaged Hitler, as he was to refer to it after he came to power. In Kubizek's biography of Hitler The Young Hitler I Knew, 1953, he recalls how it had a terrifying impact upon Hitler, who left the theater in a state of trance:
'"Adolf stood in front of me; and now he gripped both my hands and held them tight. He had never made such a gesture before. I felt from the grasp of his hands how deeply moved he was. His eyes were feverish with excitement .. Never before and never again have I heard Adolf Hitler speak as he did in that hour, as we stood there alone under the stars, as though we were the only creatures in the world. He now spoke of a mission that he was one day to receive from our people, in order to guide them out of slavery, to the heights of freedom .."
"Thirty years later, the boyhood friends would meet again in Bayreuth, and Kubizek told Adolf Hitler what he remembered of that night, assuming that the enormous multitude of impressions and events which had filled these past decades would have pushed into the background the experience of a seventeen year old youth.
"But after a few words Kubizek sensed that Hitler vividly recalled that hour and had retained all its details in his memory. Hitler's words were unforgettable for August Kubizek:
""It began at that hour ...""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Kubizek
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Edited by - ptypes on 16 Apr 2010 10:25:26 AM |
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ptypes
Member
6040 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 10:40:13 AM
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The Young Hitler I Knew by August Kubizek
http://www.archive.org/stream/TheYoungHitlerIKnew/TheYoungHitlerIKnewJr_djvu.txt
Intro by H.R. Trevor-Roper [some typos corrected]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Trevor-Roper
"And what is the character which Hitler showed to Kubizek in these four years of friendship? It is a far more human and, in my opinion, a far more plausible character than that to which Greiner's book has accustomed us. Externally Hitler still appears a drifting character: he has failed at school, has no employment, has been rejected by the Academy, is in Vienna for no clearly stated purpose, lives on a pittance eked out by painting postcards. But behind this shiftless exterior Kubizek constructs what must have been there, although it was not apparent to casual acquaintances: the character of the man who, from these beginnings, without any other natural advantages besides his own personality, became the most powerful and terrible tyrant and conqueror of modern history. Here we see - along with the incipient monomania, the repetitive cliches, and the Wagnerian romanticism of his later years - the early evidence of that unbreakable will power, that extraordinary self-confidence. We see the penniless, unemployed, unemployable young Hitler, at sixteen, confidently rebuilding in his imagination the city of Linz, as he was afterwards to rebuild it in fact, and never for a moment doubting that he would one day carry out these improbable plans; we see him exercising over an elderly Austrian upholsterer that irresistible hypnotic power with which he was afterwards to seduce a whole nation; we see him, in Vienna, fortifying himself against a corrupt and purposeless society by adopting an iron asceticism, like some ancient crusader guarding himself against corruption in a pagan world. And then turning to detail, we see in Vienna, when Kubizek was closest to him, the working of Hitler's mind as it feels its way towards the beginnings of national socialism: his crude, voracious but systematic reading; his sudden discovery of politics; his hatred of the social injustice of urban life represented to him, the architect, by squalid slum buildings; his fear -- the fear which he was afterwards to exploit among millions of lower-middle-class Germans - of sinking into proletarian status. Behind the outward meaninglessness of his hand-to-mouth existence we see the inner purposefulness of his studies, his experiences, his reasoning. The account may sometimes be romanticised, but not, I think, much, or more than is legitimate and indeed inevitable in the recollections of youth. By all external checks Kubizek's account is reliable, and to anyone who has studied the mind and character of Hitler it is also inherently plausible. Hitler's character, in the years after 1908, undoubtedly became harder and more hateful: experience caused it to set into a hideous inhumanity. In some respects it also changed, not its quality but its direction. We learn casually from Kubizek that in his Vienna days, Hitler was a pacifist; and certainly the ruthlessness of his later worship of war becomes more comprehensible when we realise that it was the religion of a convert. But fundamentally we see here what we have never seen before, and what superficial observers have never shown: the formation of that positive character which afterwards achieved the dreadful miracle of our century; the character of the man who, in circumstances of apparent hopelessness, resolved not to rest till he had found an answer not only to his problem, but to the problem of a continent. "He did not know what resignation meant," says Kubizek. "He who resigned, he thought, lost his right to live." Thanks to the experience and the harsh thought of those years. Hitler was afterwards able, in circumstances which he could not then have envisaged, to mobilise, like Satan in Hell, some of the best as well as some of the worst instincts of a defeated people:..."
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Edited by - ptypes on 16 Apr 2010 10:54:04 AM |
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maalai
Member
Canada
1875 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 10:46:25 AM
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quote:
He now spoke of a mission that he was one day to receive from our people, in order to guide them out of slavery, to the heights of freedom ..
a scary Joan of Arc
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Oneness
Member
Australia
418 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 10:52:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
But resentment will not normally lead to violence and war.
Won't anger lead to violence and war?
The reasons that you mention could apply to many different types. You relate obsessiveness to 1's, whereas I'm more inclined to think that aspergers is more applicable in his case. And aspergers is more likely to effect 5's and 6's than let's say 8's. I really can't see aspects of his personality, communications or decisions that are in any way E1'ish. 1's are also not typically seen as ruthless opportunists, more likely the opposite is usually the case.
So you think Hitler had Asperger??
This thread is getting more and more interesting...
istj 1
_______________________________________________________________
'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Anger can be a reason to go to war, but it's not usually the only reason a country goes to war.
In Hitler's case, he had a considerable memory for facts about weapons, guns, uniforms, etc., but his rambling explanations didn't make much sense. He would often engage in long and loud monologue speeches with large and small groups, as well as indvidudals. His social engagements would often show a lack of social reciprocity and empathy. With many people, aspergers can be detrimental to a person's career, but I think that it could be a partial reason for his success, as people are more likely to be persuaded by a leader's emotions than by logical, rational reasons.
istj 1
_______________________________________________________________
'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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ptypes
Member
6040 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 11:21:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by marielle
quote:
He now spoke of a mission that he was one day to receive from our people, in order to guide them out of slavery, to the heights of freedom ..
a scary Joan of Arc
Good reading, marielle.
The stereotypical view of Type One that many have is often biased towards seeing the idealism of the One in terms of their own ("left-side") definition of goodness. But that's not to say that Hitler, and his behavior, was not thoroughly bad.
R&H:
"History is full of Ones who have left comfortable lives to do something extraordinary because they felt that something higher was calling them. During the Second World War, Raoul Wallenburg left a comfortable middle-class life to work for the protection of thousands of European Jews from invading Nazis. In India, Gandhi left behind his wife and family and life as a successful lawyer to become an itinerant advocate of Indian independence and non-violent social changes. Joan of Arc left her village in France to restore the throne to the Dauphin and to expel the English from the country. The idealism of each of these Ones has inspired millions.
"Ones are people of practical action—they wish to be useful in the best sense of the word. On some level of consciousness, they feel that they “have a mission” to fulfill in life, if only to try their best to reduce the disorder they see in their environment." |
Edited by - ptypes on 16 Apr 2010 11:27:28 AM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11076 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 11:29:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
"....Hitler would only tolerate approval from his friend and could not stand to be corrected, a personality trait he had shown in high school and as a younger boy as well."
This is the defining trait of the "Right Man".
And yes, bear, a form of this syndrome can show up in 1, 3 and 6, but the difference is that with 8s it can lead to mass slaughter as a social phenomenon. Name a 1, 3 or 6 (besides Hitler) who's engaged in such.
This is why sociopathic/antisocial PD is correctly correlated to E8....because, unlike 1/3/6, E8 has the least superego blockage to being 'morally bad/dangerous' on a mass public scale....in fact, within the context of the 8's superego, it's only reasonable for them to demonstrate that they're 'wolves'.
This is core to being antisocial - the message they're sending is that they won't be tamed by the collective moral framework.
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 12:17:07 PM
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quote:
the message they're sending is that they won't be tamed by the collective moral framework.
"'He often said that, if men only wanted to, they could adopt a strictly moral way of living.' This was entirely in line with the moral code preached by the Schonereer pan-Germans. Celibacy until the 25th year, the code advocated, was healthy, advantageous to strength of will, and the basis of phyical or mental high achievement. The cultivation of corresponding dietary habits was advised. Eating meat and drinking alcohol - seen as stimulants to sexual activity - were to be avoided. And upholding the strength and purity of the Germanic race accompanied consorting with prostitutes, who should be left to clients of 'inferior' races. Here was ideological justification enough for Hilter's chaste lifestyle and prudish morals." (44)
"Hitler's prudishness, shored up by the Schonerian principles, was to a degree merely in line with middle class outward standards of morality in the Vienna of his time. These standards had been challenged by the openly erotic art of Klimt and literature of Schnitzler. But the solid bourgeois puritanism prevailed - at least as a thin veneer covering the seamier side of a city teeming with vice and prostitution. Where decency demanded that women were scarcely allowed even to show an ankle, Hitler's embarassment - and the rapidity with which he fled with his friend - when a prospective landlady during the search for a room for Kubizek let her silk dressing gown fall open to reveal that she was wearing nothing but a pair of knickers is understandable. But his prudishness went far beyond this. It amounted, according to Kubizek's account, to a deep disgust and repugnance at sexual activity." (45)
"Hitler" 1889-1936 Hubris...-Kershaw
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My feet are too big to walk a mile in someone else's shoes. |
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the_eye
Member
Romania
5063 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2010 : 10:14:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
Anger can be a reason to go to war, but it's not usually the only reason a country goes to war.
In Hitler's case, he had a considerable memory for facts about weapons, guns, uniforms, etc., but his rambling explanations didn't make much sense. He would often engage in long and loud monologue speeches with large and small groups, as well as indvidudals. His social engagements would often show a lack of social reciprocity and empathy. With many people, aspergers can be detrimental to a person's career, but I think that it could be a partial reason for his success, as people are more likely to be persuaded by a leader's emotions than by logical, rational reasons.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I imagine someone with asperger should be emotionally constricted too. Hitler may have lacked empathy for human beings, but I don't think that only means he was an aspie. Criminals, murderers also lack empathy without having such a syndrome.
I believe no aspie could have been or be the leader of a country or even big organization during crisis, lacking the means to get there in the first place.
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the_eye
Member
Romania
5063 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2010 : 10:17:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
quote:
the message they're sending is that they won't be tamed by the collective moral framework.
"'He often said that, if men only wanted to, they could adopt a strictly moral way of living.' This was entirely in line with the moral code preached by the Schonereer pan-Germans. Celibacy until the 25th year, the code advocated, was healthy, advantageous to strength of will, and the basis of phyical or mental high achievement. The cultivation of corresponding dietary habits was advised. Eating meat and drinking alcohol - seen as stimulants to sexual activity - were to be avoided. And upholding the strength and purity of the Germanic race accompanied consorting with prostitutes, who should be left to clients of 'inferior' races. Here was ideological justification enough for Hilter's chaste lifestyle and prudish morals." (44)
"Hitler's prudishness, shored up by the Schonerian principles, was to a degree merely in line with middle class outward standards of morality in the Vienna of his time. These standards had been challenged by the openly erotic art of Klimt and literature of Schnitzler. But the solid bourgeois puritanism prevailed - at least as a thin veneer covering the seamier side of a city teeming with vice and prostitution. Where decency demanded that women were scarcely allowed even to show an ankle, Hitler's embarassment - and the rapidity with which he fled with his friend - when a prospective landlady during the search for a room for Kubizek let her silk dressing gown fall open to reveal that she was wearing nothing but a pair of knickers is understandable. But his prudishness went far beyond this. It amounted, according to Kubizek's account, to a deep disgust and repugnance at sexual activity." (45)
"Hitler" 1889-1936 Hubris...-Kershaw
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My feet are too big to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
I read he was a vegetarian, didn't smoke, didn't do alcohol, was very strict. And I guess he's clearly sx-last!
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Edited by - the_eye on 17 Apr 2010 10:18:40 AM |
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Oneness
Member
Australia
418 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 09:01:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
Anger can be a reason to go to war, but it's not usually the only reason a country goes to war.
In Hitler's case, he had a considerable memory for facts about weapons, guns, uniforms, etc., but his rambling explanations didn't make much sense. He would often engage in long and loud monologue speeches with large and small groups, as well as indvidudals. His social engagements would often show a lack of social reciprocity and empathy. With many people, aspergers can be detrimental to a person's career, but I think that it could be a partial reason for his success, as people are more likely to be persuaded by a leader's emotions than by logical, rational reasons.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I imagine someone with asperger should be emotionally constricted too. Hitler may have lacked empathy for human beings, but I don't think that only means he was an aspie. Criminals, murderers also lack empathy without having such a syndrome.
I believe no aspie could have been or be the leader of a country or even big organization during crisis, lacking the means to get there in the first place.
Those are some of the reasons why I think he has aspergers. Other people have mentioned other characteristics of Hitler, which they consider indicates aspergers.
There have been many other famous people and political leaders, who are also thought to have aspergers.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famous_people_have_Asperger's_Syndrome
It can be an advantage in being single minded to attain one's objectives. Aspergers doesn't prevent a person from making correct decisions and conclusions. In his case, unsound judgements are more related to other issues.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Edited by - Oneness on 19 Apr 2010 09:02:58 AM |
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the_eye
Member
Romania
5063 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 09:56:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
Anger can be a reason to go to war, but it's not usually the only reason a country goes to war.
In Hitler's case, he had a considerable memory for facts about weapons, guns, uniforms, etc., but his rambling explanations didn't make much sense. He would often engage in long and loud monologue speeches with large and small groups, as well as indvidudals. His social engagements would often show a lack of social reciprocity and empathy. With many people, aspergers can be detrimental to a person's career, but I think that it could be a partial reason for his success, as people are more likely to be persuaded by a leader's emotions than by logical, rational reasons.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I imagine someone with asperger should be emotionally constricted too. Hitler may have lacked empathy for human beings, but I don't think that only means he was an aspie. Criminals, murderers also lack empathy without having such a syndrome.
I believe no aspie could have been or be the leader of a country or even big organization during crisis, lacking the means to get there in the first place.
Those are some of the reasons why I think he has aspergers. Other people have mentioned other characteristics of Hitler, which they consider indicates aspergers.
There have been many other famous people and political leaders, who are also thought to have aspergers.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famous_people_have_Asperger's_Syndrome
It can be an advantage in being single minded to attain one's objectives. Aspergers doesn't prevent a person from making correct decisions and conclusions. In his case, unsound judgements are more related to other issues.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I can understand why there are many 5s in that list, but many names in it don't belong there. 3/4 of that list is ludicrous. That's what happens when people play around with syndromes and disorders, assigning them to whoever. Again, I don't believe Hitler had any communication and social issues or physical clumsiness as in Aspergers.
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 10:30:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
many names in it don't belong there. 3/4 of that list is ludicrous.
I agree.
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
7w6 cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15282 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 10:38:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
Those are some of the reasons why I think he has aspergers. Other people have mentioned other characteristics of Hitler, which they consider indicates aspergers.
There have been many other famous people and political leaders, who are also thought to have aspergers.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famous_people_have_Asperger's_Syndrome
It can be an advantage in being single minded to attain one's objectives. Aspergers doesn't prevent a person from making correct decisions and conclusions. In his case, unsound judgements are more related to other issues.
I can understand why there are many 5s in that list, but many names in it don't belong there.
Such as?
[Stormy] |
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Oneness
Member
Australia
418 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 10:39:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
quote:
Originally posted by the_eye
quote:
Originally posted by Oneness
Anger can be a reason to go to war, but it's not usually the only reason a country goes to war.
In Hitler's case, he had a considerable memory for facts about weapons, guns, uniforms, etc., but his rambling explanations didn't make much sense. He would often engage in long and loud monologue speeches with large and small groups, as well as indvidudals. His social engagements would often show a lack of social reciprocity and empathy. With many people, aspergers can be detrimental to a person's career, but I think that it could be a partial reason for his success, as people are more likely to be persuaded by a leader's emotions than by logical, rational reasons.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I imagine someone with asperger should be emotionally constricted too. Hitler may have lacked empathy for human beings, but I don't think that only means he was an aspie. Criminals, murderers also lack empathy without having such a syndrome.
I believe no aspie could have been or be the leader of a country or even big organization during crisis, lacking the means to get there in the first place.
Those are some of the reasons why I think he has aspergers. Other people have mentioned other characteristics of Hitler, which they consider indicates aspergers.
There have been many other famous people and political leaders, who are also thought to have aspergers.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famous_people_have_Asperger's_Syndrome
It can be an advantage in being single minded to attain one's objectives. Aspergers doesn't prevent a person from making correct decisions and conclusions. In his case, unsound judgements are more related to other issues.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I can understand why there are many 5s in that list, but many names in it don't belong there. 3/4 of that list is ludicrous. That's what happens when people play around with syndromes and disorders, assigning them to whoever. Again, I don't believe Hitler had any communication and social issues or physical clumsiness as in Aspergers.
No communication or social issues? Various professionals, such as Michael Fitzgerald would disagree, an expert in autism spectrum disorders, concluded that Hitler suffered from, and met all the criteria of Asperger syndrome as documented by Hans Asperger.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 10:43:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
quote:
I can understand why there are many 5s in that list, but many names in it don't belong there.
Such as?
Leonardo DaVinci?
Benjamin Franklin?
Thomas Jefferson?
Marilyn Monroe?
Jane Austen?
Beethoven?
Mozart?
Mark Twain?
Virginia Wolf?
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
7w6 cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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Zapperbazzer
Member
1008 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 11:11:25 AM
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There's lots of people on the list who didn't have aspergers. They seem to have put anyone who was eccentric on the list. Tesla and Turing, seems likely, Einstein quite possibly, but Marilyn Monroe?
It is a difficulty with reading social cues and a tendency to think very literally and nothing more. Aspergic people are hyper logical, they would be unlikely to get wrapped up in something as off the wall as anti-semitism because they have difficulty with abstract thought. Nazism would have looked very strange to the aspergic population of Germany 30s through 40s.
If I ever became famous they would most likely try and diagnose me with aspergers after I died, but I really don't have it, I am just quite odd. Hitler "deviated from the norm" in some way, there most likely isn't a term for what exactly was different.
You're very right in that aspergers can be characterised by heightened attention to detail and Hitler could ream off tons of military detail but that can also be a trait of people with good memories and it is also a very male trait imo. Think of how many generals could do the same? |
Edited by - Zapperbazzer on 19 Apr 2010 11:17:28 AM |
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Oneness
Member
Australia
418 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2010 : 06:37:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by joy_unit
There's lots of people on the list who didn't have aspergers. They seem to have put anyone who was eccentric on the list. Tesla and Turing, seems likely, Einstein quite possibly, but Marilyn Monroe?
It is a difficulty with reading social cues and a tendency to think very literally and nothing more. Aspergic people are hyper logical, they would be unlikely to get wrapped up in something as off the wall as anti-semitism because they have difficulty with abstract thought. Nazism would have looked very strange to the aspergic population of Germany 30s through 40s.
If I ever became famous they would most likely try and diagnose me with aspergers after I died, but I really don't have it, I am just quite odd. Hitler "deviated from the norm" in some way, there most likely isn't a term for what exactly was different.
You're very right in that aspergers can be characterised by heightened attention to detail and Hitler could ream off tons of military detail but that can also be a trait of people with good memories and it is also a very male trait imo. Think of how many generals could do the same?
It's true that many people with aspergers have issues with abstract thinking. However, that's not necessarily the case with gifted people, as they're not only able to understand words, but the abstract meaning behind those words. His ability to reiterate numerous facts would be an indication of this giftedness. He also had the ability to paint in incredible detail various scenes from memory. Having aspergers also doesn't mean that a person lacks creativity, as many people who have aspergers are artists and scientists.
istj 1
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'We live by our imagination, our admirations, and our sentiments' - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Edited by - Oneness on 20 Apr 2010 08:53:25 AM |
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What is Hitler's type?
