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transformer
Member
1302 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 4:58:40 PM
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Sorry commoner, but once again you missed my point. What I was impying Shinobo was that even if the mentality was present in the early 19th century, Napoleon would not have been inclined to have that mentality, considering that he never exhibited the desire to anihalate a group based on their race, but rather extended civil liberities in the country's he conquered. Many people in the European countries he occupied considered him a liberator...I dont recall seeing many people who welcomed Hitler's mass killings of civillains.
Not only do you lack common sense, but you seemed to lack intelligence, cognitive reasoning, and a basic knowledge of European History.
Now begone commoner! |
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Hierophant
Member
USA
6166 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 6:04:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by transformer
Sorry commoner, but once again you missed my point. What I was impying Shinobo was that even if the mentality was present in the early 19th century, Napoleon would not have been inclined to have that mentality, considering that he never exhibited the desire to anihalate a group based on their race, but rather extended civil liberities in the country's he conquered. Many people in the European countries he occupied considered him a liberator...I dont recall seeing many people who welcomed Hitler's mass killings of civillains.
Not only do you lack common sense, but you seemed to lack intelligence, cognitive reasoning, and a basic knowledge of European History.
Now begone commoner!
First of all stop with the childish imitation..you're a pale imitation and you copying the ORIGINAL is not going to work.
Hitler was considered a liberator in many European countries (mostly central Europe) during the years leading up to WW2.
It was not until after WW2 when the atrocities he committed were far more clear when the rest of Europe saw him as the evil man he was.
Both Hitler and Napoleaon fought (and lost) to the Russians or in Napoleaon's case...barely fought...
There is no evidence indicating that if the factors of Systematic Eradication or Massive Scale eradication were alive and well during Napoleaon's lifetime that he would NOT used it.
Systematic Eradication did not come in until the factor of MASSIVE SCALE eradication came into being.
Since The Massive Scale Eradication factor did not exist in Napoleon's lifetime then the factor of Systematic Eradication obviously would have also not come into the foreray.
ENFJ 3w4 sp/sx
Dramatic/Self-Sacrificial/Self-Confident Styles
Images/Identity/Persona: ENTP 7w6
Future Goal: HONEST HEART
Shinobi-ISM, Lesson Plan 1: Type 6 is the most annoying type in the history of all types on any personality type system ever created in every civilization of man!
ShinobiVICE of the day: Thinkers, remember to ease down that road of Te and Ti for you never know when you'll just end up pissing off a perfectly calm FeNi who will later kick your[blocked due to guideline #4 violation]and cut your genitals and throw it at a moving car! |
Edited by - Hierophant on 28 Sep 2007 6:08:17 PM |
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Will
Member
889 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 7:12:15 PM
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Then what did you read about Hitler? I've read Alice Miller.
Will 5w6 Sp/Sx/So |
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5914 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 7:30:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Will
Then what did you read about Hitler? I've read Alice Miller.
Will 5w6 Sp/Sx/So
Read the detailed Analysis of the Personality of Adolf Hitler from Dr. Henry A. Murray which was ordered by the CIA.
That's quite enough. |
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Will
Member
889 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 7:39:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Boss
Anyone who hasn't read the psychological analysis of Hitler should do so before saying anything. He had a very particular background. He was artistically inclined, shy, recluse, felt different and was not appreciated by his peers. He was very envious of a jewish "friend" that made it to an art school he got refused to. He lived a very bohemian life at the end of his teens and was completly directionless.
He had strong feelings of inferiority and self-doubt. He was seeking his identity and created himself according to his ideals... There was the strong version of Hitler (his masculine ideal) and the weak version of Hitler (who he was and was trying to escape from). He was seeking his identity. He was a poor strategist but an excellent manipulator of people's emotions.
I would say he was a 4w3 sx, INFP... with aggressive ESTJ "shadow" that corresponded to the manly ideal he wanted to be. He was fuelled by his envy and hatred against all those who made him feel inferior.
For Alice Miller, the main reason for his jews hate was that his father were half jews. Nut there is no proof.
Do you have other exemple of this kind of personnality switching (strong/week) in a type 4?
When unhealthy, E4 become more melancholic, more withdraw, having no physical energy. No gut. Too much romantic fantesy. Crying (4w3). Improductive, precious, impratical. How do you see those things in Adolph Hitler?
Do you have another video of an E4 with similar non-verbal communication?
Will 5w6 Sp/Sx/So |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 8:31:29 PM
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Will is right. In the average health range, E4 could perhaps be said to be "surprisingly willful" (for a withdrawn type) but the consistency of their willpower would be wildly up and down, at best. The rise to dictatorship would be impossible as a 4, even if he were 'only' in average-health, much less an unhealthy 4. In unhealth, a 4 would be much less capable of sustaining the drive and will required to be a dictator. 4s become deeply depressed and profoundly despondent. There's a serious lack of physical energy and a feeling of "what's it all worth?", "why am I here?", "what am I doing?". I don't see those questions on Hitler's face. Did he really act as though everything was hopeless as he rose to the position of supreme leader of Germany? Come on.
Or does this look more like the Hitler we know and love:
Type 8-
Level 8: Develop delusional ideas about their power, invincibility, and ability to prevail: megalomania, feeling omnipotent, invulnerable. Recklessly over-extending self.
Level 9: If they get in danger, they may brutally destroy everything that has not conformed to their will rather than surrender to anyone else. Vengeful, barbaric, murderous. Sociopathic tendencies. Generally corresponds to the Antisocial Personality Disorder.
E4 is so wildly off the mark. I'm telling you, 8w9 pulls in a lot of the "E4 notes" that you're hearing in the music. Come with me. 
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5914 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 9:20:59 PM
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dfgray44, it is astonishing that you make an effort to manifest your ignorance, nescience again and again...
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transformer
Member
1302 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 9:38:37 PM
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-It wasnt an imitation. It was a parody. It worked quite well.
-Hitler was never considered a "liberator" except by hardcore facists.
-Your point about there not being mass eradication during Napoleons time: once again thanks for stating the obvious. There is no evidene he would have used it, or not used it, so thats a moot point.
-Napoleon was a general, not an evil demagouge. He is not in the same class of Hitler. Period. If you spent more time studying history and the motivation of previous European leaders instead of dreaming up your fantasies of being more special than "the trash" as you put it, you would know that.
First of all stop with the childish imitation..you're a pale imitation and you copying the ORIGINAL is not going to work.
Hitler was considered a liberator in many European countries (mostly central Europe) during the years leading up to WW2.
It was not until after WW2 when the atrocities he committed were far more clear when the rest of Europe saw him as the evil man he was.
Both Hitler and Napoleaon fought (and lost) to the Russians or in Napoleaon's case...barely fought...
There is no evidence indicating that if the factors of Systematic Eradication or Massive Scale eradication were alive and well during Napoleaon's lifetime that he would NOT used it.
Systematic Eradication did not come in until the factor of MASSIVE SCALE eradication came into being.
Since The Massive Scale Eradication factor did not exist in Napoleon's lifetime then the factor of Systematic Eradication obviously would have also not come into the foreray.
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 9:49:58 PM
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The resistance from western forces should have revealed what Hitler's will was made of. Most of the propaganda about his tireless capacity to work day and night were lies. He played the leader with a tireless will. He was not an authority on the subjects that he spoke about at dinner parties. He played a person with authority on those subjects.
And while he was able to keep himself going for a brief period of his life, at heart, Hitler had always been a lazy and parasitic individual-- someone who later in life constructed himself into a martinet only after internalizing an inflexible system of beliefs. Definite superego charge-- the tight lips; the rigid expressions.
Ideology was a means for Hitler to anchor himself in strength. He overcame his laziness, shyness and fear only after merging w/ a system of rigid thinking. Thus, at depth, Hitler's emotional need was support.
From a military standpoint, his will as a leader would be judged based on his ability to withstand resistance over a duration of time. Hitler was usually on the verge of a nervous breakdown. He began to further overcompensate for his insecurities by making even bigger and bolder strategic blunders. Eventually he cracked and took his life. Some historians believe he was constantly drugging himself. This would be one means of alleviating his anxieties. All smoke and mirrors-- an emotional manipulator, unable to sustain a major course of action w/out breaking down.
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 11:40:46 PM
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But a 4 can't just come to a place of "internalizing an inflexible system of beliefs". That would be tantamount to a magical event. "Inflexibility of belief" is something we would put on a list of weaknesses for 4s. I'm not saying that 4s don't ever have consistent ideals, but consistency in the area of rising to power is not in the 4 range. And an extreme consistency of rigid thought would be absolutely imperative for Hitler's rise to power and his subsequent direction as a leader.
Types 1 and 6 are much more likely than 4, especially when looking at this 'rigidity' issue
Hitler, if he were an average/unhealthy 4, would not just somehow overcome "his laziness, shyness and fear after merging with a system of rigid thinking." How would he do that? Was it an act of will that just crystallized one day? What will? The will of an average or unhealthy 4? So, he just decided to do it and from that day forth he did it? That profound of a change of that specific kind is, again, not within the range of possibilities for an average/low health 4s. Makes no sense.
4s aren't interested in personal political power. Perhaps, they are in one-to-one relationships or among groups of friends; but not in the area of ruling a country. All of the emotion-focused self-questioning that 4s engage in makes a life at that level of politics impossible.
When you say, "He began to further overcompensate for his insecurities by making even bigger and bolder strategic blunders", that's exactly why I put in the section on E8, saying: "If they get in danger, they may brutally destroy everything that has not conformed to their will rather than surrender to anyone else." If he wasn't going to get his way and totally annihilate the enemy, he was going to bring down the whole house. It's classic 8-stuff.
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Edited by - dfgray44 on 29 Sep 2007 12:00:57 AM |
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 01:17:53 AM
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I'm not arguing four. I didn't think it was necessary to say Six based on the descriptions and my prior posts.
Actually, I did type Hitler as a four about two or three years ago on an older thread. I don't think he is a four however. He was too good at relating; too good at expressing others' emotions and building up others' pride. I've said before that type six has the most acute political and emotional attenae of all the types. I think Prince Longshenks from Braveheart would be a four-- always sought of looking down on his father's empire as beneath his level of importance.
In the early years, Generallissimo Franco, who was the leader of Spain, and a type 8, met Hitler and remarked after that Hitler was one of the most insincere people he'd ever met; to paraphrase, a phony that knew some cheap acting tricks.
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anon1
Member
7611 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 01:47:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
I'm not arguing four. I didn't think it was necessary to say Six based on the descriptions and my prior posts.
Actually, I did type Hitler as a four about two or three years ago on an older thread. I don't think he is a four however. He was too good at relating; too good at expressing others' emotions and building up others' pride. I've said before that type six has the most acute political and emotional attenae of all the types. I think Prince Longshenks from Braveheart would be a four-- always sought of looking down on his father's empire as beneath his level of importance.
In the early years, Generallissimo Franco, who was the leader of Spain, and a type 8, met Hitler and remarked after that Hitler was one of the most insincere people he'd ever met; to paraphrase, a phony that knew some cheap acting tricks.
We should ALL see each others TRICKS because WE ALL HAVE THEM.
A 5 might be perceived insincere for a 3,.. |
Edited by - anon1 on 29 Sep 2007 01:50:10 AM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 2:34:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
I'm not arguing four. I didn't think it was necessary to say Six based on the descriptions and my prior posts.
Actually, I did type Hitler as a four about two or three years ago on an older thread. I don't think he is a four however. He was too good at relating; too good at expressing others' emotions and building up others' pride. I've said before that type six has the most acute political and emotional attenae of all the types. I think Prince Longshenks from Braveheart would be a four-- always sought of looking down on his father's empire as beneath his level of importance.
In the early years, Generallissimo Franco, who was the leader of Spain, and a type 8, met Hitler and remarked after that Hitler was one of the most insincere people he'd ever met; to paraphrase, a phony that knew some cheap acting tricks.
Ah, OK. I'm waging a war on two fronts - those who think he's a 4 and those who think he's a 6.
Hhmmm.
*thinking*
*planning a two-pronged blitzkrieg*
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 7:33:08 PM
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quote:
Ah, OK. I'm waging a war on two fronts - those who think he's a 4 and those who think he's a 6.
Hhmmm.
*thinking*
*planning a two-pronged blitzkrieg*
Someone likes to play with himself.  |
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
3006 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 7:54:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Types 1 and 6 are much more likely than 4, especially when looking at this 'rigidity' issue
If he wasn't going to get his way and totally annihilate the enemy, he was going to bring down the whole house. It's classic 8-stuff.
Wings might be able to disintegrate, and Hitler was, in no way, the sole decision maker in the 3rd Reich.
However, Hitler didn't want to bring down the Reich. Even when everything seemed hopeless, and he decided to suicide, he still appointed a successor (with some probable wishful thinking highlighted in bold):
From Wikipedia's article on Goebbels:
"On 30 April, with the Russians advancing to within a few hundred metres of the bunker, Hitler dictated his last will and testament. Goebbels was one of four witnesses to Hitler's last will and testament. Not long after completing it, Hitler shot himself. Of Hitler's death, Goebbels commented: "The heart of Germany has ceased to beat. The Führer is dead.""
"In his last will and testament, Hitler named no successor as Führer or leader of the Nazi Party. Instead, Hitler appointed Goebbels Reich Chancellor, Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz, who was at Flensburg near the Danish border, Reich President and Martin Bormann, Hitler's long-time chief of staff, Party Minister. Goebbels knew that this was an empty title. Even if he was willing and able to escape Berlin and reach the north, it was unlikely that Dönitz, whose only concern was to negotiate a settlement with the western Allies that would save Germany from Soviet occupation, would want such a notorious figure as Goebbels heading his government, although Dönitz was a committed National Socialist." |
Edited by - Estranged Protractor on 29 Sep 2007 7:59:01 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 9:00:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by koolkatkuhner
quote:
Ah, OK. I'm waging a war on two fronts - those who think he's a 4 and those who think he's a 6.
Hhmmm.
*thinking*
*planning a two-pronged blitzkrieg*
Someone likes to play with himself.
Yes, what do you think I do with those two prongs?
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 9:06:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Types 1 and 6 are much more likely than 4, especially when looking at this 'rigidity' issue
If he wasn't going to get his way and totally annihilate the enemy, he was going to bring down the whole house. It's classic 8-stuff.
Wings might be able to disintegrate, and Hitler was, in no way, the sole decision maker in the 3rd Reich.
Are you saying he was a 1w2, and pointing out that his 2-wing's disintegration is what I'm seeing as 8-ish? Or that he was a 1w9 and that kuhner is seeing his 9-wing disintegrating to 6?
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 11:45:37 PM
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I don't think I've been anywhere near that simplistic. You're simplifying me.
I'm actually, in part, calling attention to a distinction that I consider an overlooked aspect of the 8w9. I see the contrast between 8w9 and 8w7 as similar to the much-noted difference between 6w5 and 6w7. [And note that both this correlation (of 6 and 8, and their wings) includes a Reactive Type in the middle of both a 'withdrawn' wing on one side, and an 'aggressive' wing on the other.] I think people are being narrow in their view of 8w9s and are unaware of an aspect which includes 'notes' of hyper-sensitivity and, though some 8w9s are more 'well-adjusted' (where the 9-wing may be said to 'soften' the 8), there are some of this subtype that experience a harsh "war within" spawned from the radically opposite components of 8 and 9. This ever-present raging battle is something I claim was a fundamental feature in Beethoven.
This is a very interesting subtype. I suggest it includes: Picasso, Marlon Brando, Gurdjieff, John Huston, John Ford, Churchill, Hemingway
These are complex people with a unique depth of insight into the human condition. Because they were fundamentally 8s, the depth of their sensitivity was a problem, sometimes dealt with by dissociating from it (and people) entirely, in sociopathic behavior. Which brings us back to our buddy, Hitler.
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5914 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 11:13:13 AM
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dfgray44, cheers, mate!
okay, you do not understand anything concerning Hitler
No problem.
In short for you:
JUST keep in mind that he's a sx4w3.
And that an 8w9 is not detached, theatrical and acting like Adolf Hitler but very grounded, pure and natural (like Helmut Kohl, retired German Federal Chancellor who is an 8w9) .
That`s all for you.
Cheers |
Edited by - Glasgow on 30 Sep 2007 11:25:36 AM |
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
3006 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 11:31:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Are you saying he was a 1w2, and pointing out that his 2-wing's disintegration is what I'm seeing as 8-ish? Or that he was a 1w9 and that kuhner is seeing his 9-wing disintegrating to 6?
1w2. 2s can subtly or unsubtly control people, even when not disintegrative. I have no idea whether Hitler's 2 wing disintegrated, or whether his SP-last 1w2 type simply propelled him into reforming the Reich after the world war 1 debacle.
The ends (A non-corrupt and non-contaminated Reich-politik) justified his means. |
Edited by - Estranged Protractor on 30 Sep 2007 11:40:00 AM |
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Estranged Protractor
Member
USA
3006 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 11:41:02 AM
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| Glasgow: I'll read your posts, but I've studied a bit of Hitler and a bit of 1s. I call it as I see it, even if others don't see it that way. |
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Glasgow
Member
Germany
5914 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 11:55:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor
Glasgow: I'll read your posts, but I've studied a bit of Hitler and a bit of 1s. I call it as I see it, even if others don't see it that way.
It's okay!!
In a way I can understand you. The false E1 typing thing is caused by the epochal , militaristic times that you recover in Hitler's vibe but he just introjected it. BUT There is NO damaged self-worth and insulted narcism concerning the E1.
Remember that !!
And more important is the thing of his pretended ideals that causes mix -up and confusion. His ideals were introjected and an alibi in order to to fulfill his vendetta full of envy and hatred because of his damaged self-worth and insulted narcism.
Last but not least in short the E1 is also not detached, theatrical and acting like Adolf Hitler but very grounded
(Hitler emphaticesed discipline, strengh, reliability, dutifulness, sense of duty ec. knowing that this were the typical german prussian virtues and that he could manipulate the feelings of the germans with that super -ego principles..Like the E1 the E4 has A BIG SUPER-EGO . E4 loves discipline, doggedness and clear principles. HENCE his big LOVE for the ceremonial, ritual ( but 4ish very theatrical and detached atmosphere during his speeches and according presentations and events..this is the background for his huge intensity of the man's dedication to the creation of an ideal, the nature of his life-drama, or mission.
His racism was a esthetic and elitist thing (E4) and not an ethical thing (E1).)
It is a question of how much you know about a thing.. |
Edited by - Glasgow on 30 Sep 2007 12:06:46 PM |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 1:26:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Estranged Protractor
quote:
Originally posted by dfgray44
Are you saying he was a 1w2, and pointing out that his 2-wing's disintegration is what I'm seeing as 8-ish? Or that he was a 1w9 and that kuhner is seeing his 9-wing disintegrating to 6?
1w2. 2s can subtly or unsubtly control people, even when not disintegrative. I have no idea whether Hitler's 2 wing disintegrated, or whether his SP-last 1w2 type simply propelled him into reforming the Reich after the world war 1 debacle.
The ends (A non-corrupt and non-contaminated Reich-politik) justified his means.
I would assume that a person's wing will always disintegrate if the person (and hence, their base type) disintegrates. So, if he was a 1w2, his wing would get loudly 8-ish, yes.
And I understand about 2s subtly and unsubtly controlling people throughout a wide span of the 'levels'.
I'd also tend to agree that he was SP-last.
Can you explain, from the standpoint of him being a 1, the way (or reason) that he would manifest much of the extremes of narcissism that are 'classic' to type 8 dictators (such as I've previously mentioned in this thread)? I understand that any E-type can be narcissistic, but was he following that 8-ish dictator model as one of his "means to an end"? So, for example, his 'edict' to be "hailed" ("Heil Hitler") in military salute and greetings was just a way to establish dominance so that the "right thing" could be carried out? The right thing being to have his One-ish ideals fully realized?
That kind of insistence on a centralized focus on his personage seems pretty far off the beaten path of One-dom. Yes, Ones can think they're "the only person who knows the truth" and hence they would internally claim that the focus should be on them, but I don't know of any other examples of Ones who constantly, in an outward fashion, directed the focus onto themselves, rather than couching their self-righteousness in a focus on their ideals. [And yes, I know Hitler's speeches were replete with "ideals".]
But would a One be so loudly self-indulgent as he was? Wouldn't that be a cause of shame? And hence going full-force into such indulgences would be in constant battle with doing "what's right". So much so, that to implement these 'indulgences' on a mass scale, and then see such implementations daily, seems like an untenable position for a One. I think that even when Ones are relatively low in health, they still have access to a "spiritual common sense" that would thwart a One's plan to "look like a selfish dictator" so as to carry out a master plan "for the good of all". That sounds like a bad character-sketch.
Much of this same argument I would apply to E6 for Hitler as well. It's why one of the 'superego' types doesn't make sense to me, for him.
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transformer
Member
1302 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 6:25:22 PM
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After much discussion, can we agree tha Hitlers type was either:
1w2
6w5
3w4
4w3 |
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dfgray44
Member
USA
11086 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 8:07:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by transformer
After much discussion, can we agree tha Hitlers type was either:
1w2
6w5
3w4
4w3
I, myself, cannot. And I'm here for the long haul.
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Edited by - dfgray44 on 30 Sep 2007 8:08:05 PM |
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Topic |
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What is Hitler's type?
