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ganglion
Member
Netherlands
1619 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 8:28:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Now, I do believe that fixation 9 has a real consequence on many people to cause a difficulty to concentrate on an intellectual task or pay attention to what people say. I've seen how they get wet and sleepy when they try to research. Since another close friend is a 5w4 maths researcher, believe me the difference is VERY visible. These people have roughly the same IQ though.
Of course the inner life of 9s is not flat and dead.
This was my 1000th post. God bless EIDB. 
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451)
I am glad you recognised the weird Matrix / Grid we are all unconsciously acting in.
But as far as I calculated on birth year a new generation of born with 4w5>1 rejection types came in around 1996 and were preceded by a long generation of cp6w5 attachment types (1984-1995).
Ganglion
BTW I see this is my 888/24/6 post. |
Edited by - ganglion on 03 Jul 2012 8:33:05 PM |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 10:51:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
There are FACTS about types. I know the importance of reading energy and feeling the vibe of people.
And what are these "facts" and where do you find them? I'd also be interested in hearing how you define "energy."
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1292 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 06:25:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
There are FACTS about types. I know the importance of reading energy and feeling the vibe of people.
And what are these "facts" and where do you find them?
I summon the spirit of the Holy Rabbit.
Some people who are not lucky enough to have the special unique connection to the Holy Rabbit like me, usually read books and observe people, especially when they relate with them... they sometimes think of it... and have a slow process of discernment and maturation.
But really the spirit of the Holy Rabbit is faster and better.
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
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bear
Member
USA
5806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 11:12:46 AM
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 skyboy
quote:
Originally posted by oceanlife
It's becoming the joy of all joys to be self-accepting. And calm. And present. And self-honoring, without giving others the ability to raise or lower my value with a word, or a look.
Who is this 'me' that I must be true to?
What a relieving question. It's opens the world up.
I was really struck by this. I forget who it was, but there was (or is) an Indian teacher whose realization rested on a continual repeated question "who am i?"
This week I was re-reading a chapter in Almaas' The Freedom to Be that was all about this question. It's a talk about the personal essence (pearl) where he frames the question "what does it mean to be oneself?" in many different ways, and illuminates some of the ways we mistakenly think we know the answer. These are some excerpts from the chapter, probably more than most want to read, but worthwhile IMO.
What does it mean to be oneself? Everyone says he wants to be himself. "I want to be myself and express myself. I want to be me." The desire to be oneself is a very, very deep concern. In fact, most people feel it's hard to be themselves most of the time. People talk about wanting to be themselves as if they know what that means. When someone says, "I'm not myself around my mother or my boss," it sounds as if they actually know what it is to be themselves. But the most important part of the problem here is not the presence of the mother or the boss, but the fact that one doesn't know what it is to be oneself. What is that experience, to be oneself? How will you know when you are being yourself? We go around feeling that we can't be ourselves, or wanting to be ourselves, or to assert ourselves, or to express ourselves. But what is being oneself? Notice the way I have phrased the issue. I'm not asking, "What is the self?" I'm asking, "What is it to be oneself?" It's not what is the self, but what is it to be. It is the question of being that is a mystery.
The more mysterious something is, the more people take for granted that they understand it. The question of being oneself is such a mystery that most people believe they already know what it is to be oneself.
If you read the literature from many different traditions and teachers, you will see that they keep saying there is no self, but they also refer to being oneself. They say you need to be free from yourself, but at the same time they also say that you have to be yourself. How can that be? How can there be no self, but at the same time you need to become yourself? This is usually not explained. Of course, we often do not thing to ask this question. The precise understanding of what it is to be oneself is not a simple one. We could even be free from the self, from the ego, and still not know what it is to be oneself.
So what is yourself? Are you being yourself when you're expressing anger? When you're expressing love, or when you're letting yourself be sad? Are you yourself when you do what you want to do? That's another way people think they're going to be themselves - by doing or accomplishing what they believe they want. In fact, most people think they are being themselves by expressing a feeling, an idea, or an action. But we are trying to find out what it is "to be oneself," not "to do oneself" or "to express oneself."
According to my perception, it is this lack of understanding, the ignorance of what it is to be oneself, that is the main reason why people do not expand. It is why people do not develop in a real way; why people continue having the same issues, problems and difficulties. To truly develop means first you need to be yourself, and that your self will develop. If you are being something else, that might develop, but it's not you. People talk about sell-development, but who is there who is going to develop? If you don't know what it is to be yourself, what is developing? You can take self-development classes, self-assertion classes, and develop something, but who says that's yourself? You can develop capacities, abilities, perceptions, experience and ideas if you work at it. But that doesn't mean you are developing yourself.
Many of you can feel a very deep yearning, a subtle flame, a longing for a true life - to live our life as a continual celebration and freshness. In some part of us we know this is possible, and that it is the way life should be. If we don't' live this way, there is always a feeling of incompleteness....
Most people in spiritual work assume that the ego is a problem and consequently miss the truth that the ego can reveal, because they don't listen to it. We can illustrate this point with the story of Lucifer. Lucifer was the most beautiful of the angels, the Archangel who feel from grace and became the devil, suffering separation from God. The same is true of ego; it has a sublime origin which it remembers, and it longs to return to this origin. The ego tries to bring the divine life to earth and actualize it; but it uses ways which don't work. The usual result is a personal life which is an imitation of the true one. The ego can imitate only because, at some level, it knows what the real life would be. It is an imitation only because an original exists....
Many stories and theories attempt to explain why we suffer and have this difficult life. Most of them don't satisfy us. For example, in the story of Adam & Eve, God punishes humanity for not obeying - so why didn't God create us so that we obey? Or there is the idea of karma - there is an accumulation of karma which you need to get rid of to experience your true nature. Where did this karma come from? If your original nature was pure, why do you end up dong things which accumulate karma? Then there are people who say that there is a reason why humanity suffers, but that we are not developed enough to know the reason. Maybe this is true, but how do they know this?
All these questions I'm asking are actually a movement toward being oneself. To be oneself is to question, to ask, "What is this about? I don't want to listen to other people's explanation, I want to know myself. I want to satisfy myself by my own experience, by my own investigation. It doesn't matter what authorities or teachers say if it doesn't make sense in my own experience." The more you question and think for yourself, the more you become yourself. To be oneself means not to be conditioned by others, by the external, not to be an extension of the past, yours or anyone else's past. To be oneself means to be an original.
We are looking at two points of view here, a universal one and a personal one. On one side are the spiritual traditions which speak of a divine, universal life of freedom and enlightenment; on the other side is the rest of humanity who wants a certain kind of life - to be married, find satisfying work, have sex and fulfill myriad other desires and wishes. Why can't we do both? Why can't we have this personal life and still be free? When you look at your deepest longing, isn't that what you want? You want a normal life, and still to be happy and free; not just free on a mountain retreat, but free in your normal life....
Some teachings about being free from ego might lead you to think that you should get rid of being a person, you should be universal and objective. But at the deepest level, you want to be a persona and be free. Where did you get that idea, that is is possible to be a person and be free at the same time? That longing must originate from somewhere. We know from our method of investigation that if there is a longing, then something has been lost. If we have a deep longing, it must be for something real. We might approach the problem wrongly, we might not be clear about what is missing, but the aspiration toward it is real.
How can you be a free person, be yourself, and not be controlled by ego and personality? Is it possible to be oneself without being one's personality? That is the question: if this question is answered then our mystery is solved.
Our work here is to learn how to be free from one's personality by being oneself. The personality as a whole exists because it is taking the place of soothing real which has been lost. We can feel the potential for this reality in the fact of the existence of its imitator, personality. ..............
Sufis call the death of the personality "fana," which means extinction. Then they talk about "baqa," which means the remaining after extinction, the existence after death. "Baqa after fans" means "existence in God"; it means to be yourself within the universal. That personal beingness is what is called the Beloved of God in the Koran. In Christianity it is called the Son of God. You cannot be a lover, especially a lover of the divine, unless you are truly yourself. When you are yourself, your personal beingness, then and only then is it possible to treat other people as people, as humans in a personal way. Then they are no longer objects to you. When you are yourself in this way, it is possible to have personal contact with others. When you are not yourself, when you are the personality of ego, the personality is a barrier between you and the other. Or, if you are the universal aspect, you also cannot make personal contact with someone else. You can envelop them in a universal way, you can be open with them, but that person to person, begin to being, heart to heart contact is missing. Regardless of how much you love the person, have compassion for him, or want to help him, if you are not personal in your contact, he will not feel met. The personal contact establishes trust.
We need to clarify what we mean by personal. We know that the ego feels personal; the personality is even named after the personal. So how do you tell the true personal from the personality personal? What do we mean when we talk about personal contact? To the personality, it means feelings. "I'm personal because I can tell them all of my feeling. I'm opening my heart to them." That is what is commonly taken to be the personal experience, but this is an imitation just as the whole personality is an imitation......
Personal is not in contradistinction to universal; personal is in contradistinction with impersonal. To be personal does not eliminate objectivity; you can be objective without the personality's assumption that objective means cold and unfeeling. When you know yourself this way, you can go though all the levels of spiritual experience - universal included. Then you are truly living your life. You are actually in anything you experience, you are actually doing it. What comes out is a spontaneous response; it has nothing to do with the past. The qualities of essence are within you like your organs are within you - love, compassion, will, the universal, etc.... The true personal is not in contradiction to the universal; it is, in fact, a child of the universal, the fruit of the universal.... When you are the personal, the universe that you see outside you is completely experienced as inside you, as if you become a miniature universe. When you are truly personal, you are not just merged with the universe, you are a child of the universe. You are the microcosm.
Then you can live on this earth with all the pleasures, all the freedom and power - all from the universal, but on earth, as a human being. Then you are everything - a friend, a lover, a warrior. You're the personal and universal with no contradiction. To be oneself is to know oneself from completely original perception. You don't know yourself by contrasting yourself to somebody else; you know yourself without reference to anything else.
We have a longing to be that certain about ourselves. As long as you know yourself as a result of an insight, as a result of comparing yourself to something else, or even fitting your experience with someone else's ideas or experiences, you have no certainty. The longing for this direct certainty, to be oneself, should be the true motivation for the work. You need to make your search as free and as personal as possible. If it is your search and your seeking, it is not according to what anybody says.
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Edited by - bear on 04 Jul 2012 11:15:33 AM |
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oceanlife
Member
USA
5645 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 4:18:18 PM
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| Love that passage bear. Love. Will write more later. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1292 Posts |
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skyboy
Member
France
1292 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2012 : 03:50:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
I'd also be interested in hearing how you define "energy."
That's a good question.
What one call "energy" or "vibe" in a type or person are several things who are usually unclearly stated because it's hard to explain. A bit like the sensations you get when listening to music. While do I find Ravel showing a sense of space, travelling, alien smells, the sky at sunset and rich multiple colours while it is music ? But strangely, most people I've been talking to feel it like I do.
More rationally, the energy is visible in the parts of the body being influenced by the fixations. Each type has consequences on the three centres (head, heart, gut) and we can learn to see and see it, sometimes without a need to analyse or verbalize it. It would probably need ten pages to describe what we perceive about somebody in one second. Also, since I'm an heart type, I feel what people express inside me, in my chest, and I'm progressively learning to see how each type creates various movements, sensations, intuitions... What is expressed by the body also can be seen in the words they write, and I'm not able to explain why. But it's like the person becomes alive in the word he writes and all this get channelled through our own subtle perception devices.
One example about the type 4 is a sense of emphasis. 4s use the language as they draw a painting or play the piano or sing lyrics very meaningful to the heart. Each sentence, each word is being given an energy, a curve... and this curve has an echo in feelings : both in the 4 himself, and in the people around him. Even a very intellectual 4 talking about a mathematical theory, will have his heart creating curves and expressing motion around the words, like if each idea and sound had to be experienced as something meaningful and moving by the heart. Not all 4s are like that, but it can be a thing to observe. 4s are "performing to the invisible" like if they were constantly in the middle of theatre with the best subtly receptive audience they could imagine.
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
Edited by - skyboy on 05 Jul 2012 05:04:27 AM |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 03:52:10 AM
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Standard Four and the pretentious artistic mask.
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type. |
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skyboy
Member
France
1292 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 04:42:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Crimson
Standard Four and the pretentious artistic mask.
You reassure me Crimson. For one short moment, I thought my intuition about people had stopped functioning... 
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
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bear
Member
USA
5806 Posts |
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bear
Member
USA
5806 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 10:09:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
One example about the type 4 is a sense of emphasis. 4s use the language as they draw a painting or play the piano or sing lyrics very meaningful to the heart. Each sentence, each word is being given an energy, a curve... and this curve has an echo in feelings : both in the 4 himself, and in the people around him. Even a very intellectual 4 talking about a mathematical theory, will have his heart creating curves and expressing motion around the words, like if each idea and sound had to be experienced as something meaningful and moving by the heart. Not all 4s are like that, but it can be a thing to observe. 4s are "performing to the invisible" like if they were constantly in the middle of theatre with the best subtly receptive audience they could imagine.
Liked your post 
Isn't this what dfg was talking about? It can be pretentious, or it can be exquisite, depending on how identified the four is, but there is always that tendency to personalize with curves (I think I called it curly cues before). Developed fours are really in touch with what's here, in touch with the visible you could say, rather than performing for it... but their words still come with a deeply personal touch that is delicious.
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skyboy
Member
France
1292 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 12:41:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bear
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
One example about the type 4 is a sense of emphasis. 4s use the language as they draw a painting or play the piano or sing lyrics very meaningful to the heart. Each sentence, each word is being given an energy, a curve... and this curve has an echo in feelings : both in the 4 himself, and in the people around him. Even a very intellectual 4 talking about a mathematical theory, will have his heart creating curves and expressing motion around the words, like if each idea and sound had to be experienced as something meaningful and moving by the heart. Not all 4s are like that, but it can be a thing to observe. 4s are "performing to the invisible" like if they were constantly in the middle of theatre with the best subtly receptive audience they could imagine.
Liked your post
Isn't this what dfg was talking about? It can be pretentious, or it can be exquisite, depending on how identified the four is, but there is always that tendency to personalize with curves (I think I called it curly cues before). Developed fours are really in touch with what's here, in touch with the visible you could say, rather than performing for it... but their words still come with a deeply personal touch that is delicious.
Yes. And I agree the dfg's picture of type 4 was a good one. And it could finally sound absurd that I explain roughly the same thing that what dfg said, before I reacted against it. Even though taking things personally is something I do a lot, this was really not what I felt here : "this description of 4 is too negative, that's not what it is, poor 4s noone understand them..." no. It reminds me of this joke we did with a friend about a serial killer saying : "Yeah, I killed dozens of young woman but really, I didn't kill THIS ONE !". 
Some 4s don't have created a theatrical persona to protect their sensitivity. If a 4 is feeling in a place of being a technical expert for example where any kind of theatrical persona does not make sense, it can either be released or be denied and repressed. Some 4s living with some simple folks can just develop a more classical way of relating without making individuation an art of performing, even though they can still experience pain the same way. Finally MANY 4s look rather calm in usual life. Sometimes you only feel the sadness and pain as a sort of discrete cold coming from them (Depp, Paccino, DeNiro...).
Two of the possible vibes of type 4 :
Anne Sexton : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfvS_fgbuDI
Paul Simon : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRivbJ-BUv4&feature=related
I'm not trying to express that some 4s are "good" while some a "drama queens". I'm just trying mainly to express that the tree of possibility is wide, like for any other type. Dfg was maybe not playing a completely fair game by saying that 9s can be many different things, while 4s can be just "that" (his picture). I just want the game to be fair, so that if we try to find somebody's type, we have more chance to find the truth. In my experience of watching them, I just have the sensation to have witnessed more elements of 4's defences in eidbuser and olife's posts than elements of 9's defences. Maybe I'm wrong... but what I'm seeing about these defences is not unusual for 4s.
4w5 SP/SO (Tritype 451) |
Edited by - skyboy on 06 Jul 2012 12:45:58 PM |
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Crimson
Member
Canada
403 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2012 : 8:10:00 PM
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Key word here is authenticity.
Put away the artistic masks and scripts, and learn to be yourself.
There is no such thing as an Enneagram tri-type. |
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Lake
Member
6836 Posts |
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ganglion
Member
Netherlands
1619 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 7:11:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sVHcStT5cg
yes, tongue in cheek.
Indeed, that is just an attachment type actor playing a 4 rejection type.
The last born on a 4 day actor I calculated under 2012 was Raymond Burr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eG3G2sykRQ
1,886 0,530 0,003 6,841 0,584 0,069 2,791 2,407 0,567
67,888 4,630 0,000 46,799 2,295 0,000 8,583 1,796 0,000
2012
0,851 0,001 0,000 15,524 0,057 0,000 6,780 1,591 0,004
76,311 0,000 0,000 0,129 0,035 0,000 2,224 0,000 0,000
Note that he might present as an one (with 1>7>4 dynamics)
Before that we have Olivia DeHavilland.
Here a madly jealous 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_ot7c_pUIs
And before that we had Orson Welles and Anthony Quinn (mostly seen as 7).
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Edited by - ganglion on 20 Jul 2012 7:30:11 PM |
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dusty
Member
2900 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 7:35:15 PM
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| Alright ganglion, why don't you calculate my type so I can see what I am according to your crazy system. |
Edited by - dusty on 20 Jul 2012 7:35:47 PM |
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ganglion
Member
Netherlands
1619 Posts |
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dusty
Member
2900 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 8:07:34 PM
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| I sent an email. |
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ganglion
Member
Netherlands
1619 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2012 : 9:04:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dusty
I sent an email.
The results (6) are uploaded now.
ganglion |
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Octavian
Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2012 : 11:06:31 AM
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Sorry to hear about your loss. It's very difficult to lose your father. I think that people who had suffered such loss come to have a lot of Fourish identity: "I am a victim of life!" I've grown without a father to, and I can say I feel this on my skin. But was not such a tragedy for me as it seems to be for you. People who had so much to suffer might been drawn back in to the average to unhealthy Levels, and this for Nines means to deny problems, to resist being helped, to be lost in depression, etc. (The Wisdom of the Enneagram, p.334). All you say here is typically Nine, it is resisting life on all fronts and moving in the Inner Sanctum to avoid life’s problems:
"I've been hitting such milestones with EMDR therapy. Much calmer, more present. An easier time letting things go, not worrying about what others think. Who am I going to let down, how I'm letting myself down. How to prevent being seen in a way that I don't want to be seen (or associated)."
You describe how you find a lot in common with type Six, an expected thing for an average Nine.
More than that you are identified as a Nine by others with experience and who know you for some time.
Even your search for your type show you to be an average Nine: you seem to do this for years- that is the inefficiency of Nine, and seem not to bother you at all.
Someone said to you to wait one more year until you will be more clear about your type. It seems to me that waiting is the problem, and not the answer ( ”like throwing water on a drowning man”- The Wisdom of the Enneagram, p.2).
It is very important for people like you the support and love of those around, and I think it is advisable to find a real good Enneagram therapist to solve efficiently your problem, or else you might get calmer and calmer, but unfortunately more stuck in to your real problem.
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Edited by - Octavian on 22 Jul 2012 12:44:37 PM |
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What type 4 is
