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Ocean
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4554 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  8:37:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ocean's Homepage  Reply with Quote
(You can't do much with "your will". You can do much with "God's will". Its a compassionate bootstrap.)

Nines wouldn't have their problems if they had actual faith.
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skunk
Member

5965 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  8:38:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansur_Al-Hallaj
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MH
Member

12309 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  8:38:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit MH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Why people 'hated' Jesus so much as to put him to death.

Why it was his 'fate' that God apparently 'ordered' him to die on the cross.

Why his martyrdom is supposed to have 'saved' the rest of humanity.

What is so holy about being killed, and/or the death of a 'perfect soul' by the hands of 'sinners'?


Its a lesson as far as I can tell, not seeing it as symbolic as it seems like some take it. Its an everyday occurance,exhibited dramatically and religiously.
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skunk
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5965 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:25:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem

quote:
for the opportunity of accusing people of taking things literally because it's a pretty 'in' and exclusive thing to be one of those that don't.


sounds to me like your projecting your 'social' issues onto him. Never experienced Orpheus that way but have with you. Not trying to be offensive tho Im sure it is. Just the way I see you given the board wars



Give an example?
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MH
Member

12309 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:29:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit MH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
you focus bigtime on what is thought about you from your rampages, even misinterpreting and becoming angry over benign things that you sacrafice something of yourself for.Ive seen other sp/sxs do the same thing. raging against a machine with specific targets in rein tightly,without a greater awareness of your impact. Hell I've even seen soc/sxs do it but without the personalization you usually give.
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skunk
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5965 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:36:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem

you focus bigtime on what is thought about you from your rampages, even misinterpreting and becoming angry over benign things that you sacrafice something of yourself for.Ive seen other sp/sxs do the same thing. raging against a machine with specific targets in rein tightly,without a greater awareness of your impact. Hell I've even seen soc/sxs do it but without the personalization you usually give.



Right, so rather than give an example of what I was supposedly projecting onto Orpheus, you've taken the opportunity to elaborate on your claim in the Song of the Dead thread. But that's interesting because I'd thought your claim was spot on precisely (and only) because I thought you'd been referring to my image issues.

Pretty cool what little gentle questioning can throw up.
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MH
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12309 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:42:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit MH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Pretty cool what little gentle questioning can throw up


really? I feel like you just effectively shut me out in your own name. not that im un used to it


want me to say your a great guy or what? Not sure what your going for other than to not be wrong

Edited by - MH on 18 Aug 2011 9:43:27 PM
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skunk
Member

5965 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:45:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem

quote:
Pretty cool what little gentle questioning can throw up


really? I feel like you just effectively shut me out in your own name. not that im un used to it


want me to say your a great guy or what? Not sure what your going for other than to not be wrong



if I'm doing that then why am I looking for input from you about transformer's stack on the concurrent thread (that you disagree with me about)?

Edited by - skunk on 18 Aug 2011 9:52:22 PM
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skunk
Member

5965 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:48:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem



want me to say your a great guy or what?



I don't think you'd have it in you to lie through your teeth like that...lol
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MH
Member

12309 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  9:53:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit MH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Honestly I dont know other than that you are involved in how you are percieved. I dont want you to think I am like oh skunk is percieved in such and such a way and if your invested here thats all you will hear. Not sure how to meet you and be honest without saying hey dude why are you so concerned about the perception of an 98th percent of a world. I read some of your writings and thought they were really cool but then you started attacking and I really was confused about it.Im naive and not at the same time cuz i get super [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] too. what are you looking for to hear when interacting with me? Last week a read a very good friend of mine decently tell all of facebook all women are whores while an 11 yr old questioned him and was told yep! and this week I hear dfgray rant about his past board wars about how women came down on him when man was king and dsc is posting links to the end of the world..whats up skunk?

Edited by - MH on 18 Aug 2011 10:02:11 PM
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skunk
Member

5965 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  10:05:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit skunk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem

Honestly I dont know other than that you are involved in how you are percieved. I dont want you to think I am like oh skunk is percieved in such and such a way and if your invested here thats all you will hear. Not sure how to meet you and be honest qithout saying hey dude why are you so concerned about the perception of an 98th percent of a world. I read some of your writings and thought they were really cool but then you started attacking and I really was confused about it.Im naive and not at the same time cuz i get super [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] too. Ahat are you looking for to hear when interacting with me? Last week a read a very good friend of mine decently tell all of facebook all women are whores while an 11 yr old questioned him and was told yep! and this week I hear dfgray rant about his past board wars about how women came down on him when man was king and dsc is posting links to the end of the world..whats up skunk?



You've really lost me here C. (your initial is C, yes?). I've had image issues since I was nine. I constantly wanted to emulate some 'cool' movie star or whatever. I've got image issues today.

I'm lost about the dfgray rant - there was no rant that I saw. And don't read dsc's links - lol; you know there's a good chance they'll just be about microwaved babies or something!

I'm signing out now. Your initial comment did arouse a reaction btw and I'm not sure if it was victimisation or persecution (my feeling is it was the latter). It was interesting to be present to it.

Goodnight.
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dfgray44
Member

USA
11981 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2011 :  10:11:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit dfgray44's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No rant. I came to dig most of those chicks...in the end.



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eidbuser
Member

2035 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  01:35:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit eidbuser's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skunk

I don't think eidbuser is taking it literally, I think he's merely exploring why orthodox Christians do.



Indeed.

The problem with looking at things symbolically is that you can easily overlook the literal level where many paradoxes and contradictions abound. On the symbolic level, 'everything is one' and 'everything makes sense' and 'all is right in the world.'Looking at things from the perspective of 'formlessness' negates the inconsistencies on the level of 'form.'

There are many 'mystical' and new-age christians for whom the teachings of christ are all symbolic and make consistent sense on every level. But you can read whatever you want to believe into a symbol.

Believing in something symbolic is understandable. The odd thing is when people believe something literal which obviously doesn't make any sense. Because the Jesus story is so absurd, you have to read it symbolically to turn it into something that makes sense.

The most logically inconsistent idea is the reasoning attributed to Jesus's death "saving" humanity from sin.

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MH
Member

12309 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  06:48:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit MH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
The most logically inconsistent idea is the reasoning attributed to Jesus's death "saving" humanity from sin.


how so?
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eidbuser
Member

2035 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  07:24:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit eidbuser's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
how so?



Well, try to describe it in a way that makes sense.
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MH
Member

12309 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  07:31:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit MH's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Well, try to describe it in a way that makes sense


take some time, describe why its logically inconsistent. No hurry. I'll do the same but im not promising to post. I'm a total louse at articulating ideas
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blackLight
Member

USA
6317 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  12:32:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit blackLight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by goodmourning
I wonder if Christ means True Nature, or personal Essence, or the transforming agent that Almaas spoke of when talking about True Nature and the philosophers stone.

Where does he write about that? At end of Inner Journey? I'm at a retreat on philosopher's stone, and I don't remember ever hearing the phrase from him before (IJH is a book I haven't read). At least from the perspective of the DA, Christ is true nature, but he usually is connected to divine love or living daylight (or true nature making itself known as that, if you will). Christ would be seen as one face of true nature, one way that true nature makes itself known. The Christian perspective is seen as a valid and true and potentially complete teaching or perspective, different from other teachings/perspectives, but not the only true and complete perspective.




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Roshan
Member

USA
4788 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  2:50:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Roshan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Goodmourning

[/quote]

I'm vaguely Christian when in the right mood. I've read much on Christian mysticism. There is much talk about seeing Christ, or as Christ as the transforming agent.
Much to the frustration of Christians who cannot understand how I take Jesus mythologically and non literally, Christ seems to represent, not so much the Jesus person, but a metaphysical principle that is of God, but more tied to man. I wonder if Christ means True Nature, or personal Essence, or the transforming agent that Almaas spoke of when talking about True Nature and the philosophers stone
.

Were you raised in a Protestant church? Are you speaking more of Protestants or equally of Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox when you say they don't understand?

***

I think that western man being so obessed with the mind, confusing the map for the territory, has idealized intellectualization. But what is neglected is that western man just loves and clings to them obessively. I like studying this stuff because I was raised in the church and Jesus used to mean much to me as a child. The rest of the religion, and the bible didn't.
But I'm more of a radical phenomenologist. I don't give a flying [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] if ANY religious myth is true or not. The only thing I can know for sure is my direct experience.


What did Jesus mean to you as a child? How did you experience him directly? Was it different from later on after you began to study spiritual systems such as Almaas'?
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Orpheus
Member

Romania
4049 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  4:30:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Orpheus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
-Bear, Almaas talks about a christian mystic's process of self-realization with a related interpretation of Christ in Point of Existence. I can't remember details and don't have the book with me.

quote:
Originally posted by skunk

I don't think eidbuser is taking it literally, I think he's merely exploring why orthodox Christians do. I think you're just too eager for the opportunity of accusing people of taking things literally because it's a pretty 'in' and exclusive thing to be one of those that don't.



whoa you like totally saw through me bro


To me, looking for chrono-logic in a mythical story is taking it too literally, wherein such stories have cyclical reoccurred of themes rather than a narrative that is necessarily coherent or makes sense. Naturally, it's full of paradox and contradiction, but not without reason. But I'm just trying to be 'in' (where?) on the internet, so what do I know?


quote:


The problem with looking at things symbolically is that you can easily overlook the literal level where many paradoxes and contradictions abound. On the symbolic level, 'everything is one' and 'everything makes sense' and 'all is right in the world.'Looking at things from the perspective of 'formlessness' negates the inconsistencies on the level of 'form.'

quote:
i don't agree. symbols morph into one another, but they are also distinct. they're contradictory by nature, which is why they have to be represented symbolically rather than through language. symbols burst and transform into their opposites, or go wherever, depending on whatever the symbol is evoking in you. It's really about what the Christ symbol, in this case, evokes in you [but looking at other mythologies, dreams, related figures, associations, doesnt hurt either]. Mythology is often abused.


There are many 'mystical' and new-age christians for whom the teachings of christ are all symbolic and make consistent sense on every level.

But you can read whatever you want to believe into a symbol.

Exactly. But it evokes something personal (that can be transpersonal) from within you if you let it work on you. Symbols have no definite meaning by nature. it takes you deeper. It's an abuse of mythological thinking if people water it down to something consistent and to reinforce what's easy and digestible.

Believing in something symbolic is understandable. The odd thing is when people believe something literal which obviously doesn't make any sense.
agreed

Because the Jesus story is so absurd, you have to read it symbolically to turn it into something that makes sense.

The most logically inconsistent idea is the reasoning attributed to Jesus's death "saving" humanity from sin.


________________________________




The human face is an empty force, a field of death.

A sunset is beautiful for what it takes away.
Artaud


It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering.
Gurdjieff


Edited by - Orpheus on 19 Aug 2011 4:43:40 PM
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blackLight
Member

USA
6317 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  01:45:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit blackLight's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Orpheus. I might check that out when I get home. I was actually curious about philosopher's stone, though - that's what I hadn't heard from him before this retreat.

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lomelodia
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161 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  02:21:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit lomelodia's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Gosh, this thread is so INTERESTING. My eyes hurt, again, but when I am feeling less tired I'm going to give the entire thing a good read.

I've been having similar questions myself.
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eidbuser
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2035 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  3:45:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit eidbuser's Homepage  Reply with Quote
christ is a big topic in diamond heart book five.

in connection with the philosopher's stone, almaas links the elixir of enlightenment with brilliancy, in one of the diamond heart books.

i don't think he ever mentions the philosopher's stone in any of his writing.
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lomelodia
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161 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  4:54:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit lomelodia's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by manda7panda

quote:
Originally posted by eidbuser

Yes. Both on the literal, physical level, and its supposed mystical/symbolic significance.


I'm currently of the suspicion that it may be more beneficial to hold it as a point of ongoing inquiry than to settle for answers. The trouble with answers is they can cause a person to stay at a single layer of interpretation indefinitely, when there might be other layers that could be quite true and useful. Even if an interpretation comes along (spontaneously or through someone else) that makes perfect sense, it could still be valuable to leave the question open for additional interpretations/layers/dimensions to emerge over time. I'm beginning to realize that confusion is a brilliant place to be. Even though it feels like [blocked due to guideline #4 violation] sometimes.




Manda I agree with you 100% :D. Confusion is a great place to be. There is no one answer, though fleshing things out here can help people get ideas.
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dnimon
Member

Australia
6516 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  6:30:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit dnimon's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wrote a long reply to this a few days ago, but the cyberdog ate it, maybe its just as well. the symbolism, meaning, metaphor of the christ story, in particular the crucifixion is not something that can easily be understood, even on a mundane level without a long study of esoteric religious symbolism.

It can of course be misunderstood in infinite ways but i guess we might question the value of the uninformed and uneductated opinion of "Chad, Chuck or Bluey down the road", on matters like this. It is inevitable that amongst these subjective and baseless opinions, the idea that christ did not exist at all, that these stories are fictional or that these stories mean whatever they mean to anyone at all, and that one persons take, regardless of how uninformed it is, is every bit as good as another.

The latter idea is particularly newagey and i find it convenient to laziness. In the past i found myself so very upset with certain people in my life who were resolute in their opinion that the moon was made of cheese, and would not shift, even to the point of considering anything else might be possible and still i struggle to just completely disengage and accept that people can have strong opinions and beliefs like this without any study or knowledge ona given subject whatsoever.still thats my issue.

The christ story, promulgated, underlined and symbolically illustrated a host of the most essential esoteric/psychp/spiritual laws and principles; the crucifixion story contains perhaps the most important as it illustrates the relationship between the extended and the unextended, the quantifiable and unquantifiable, and most especially the means and mechanism of conscious growth.

The relationship between the two worlds we occupy, the vertical and horizontal, the essentiality of suffering, and the nature of sacrifice and suffering required to consciously evolve. I find it quite ironic that such a powerful and impactful metaphor, designed to be remembered for millenia as an illustrative teaching is altogether lost on humanity.

Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much....Oscar Wilde

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.ron4
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11675 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2011 :  1:27:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit .ron4's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Jesus could have ran away and hid but that would've
admitted the fear of death but he didn't because he
wasn't afraid of death and he wanted you to not be
afraid of death or to fear anything.



"If you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change".
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