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whitelila
Member
5130 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2012 : 10:54:45 PM
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There is a whole lot worth thinking about in the below link.
http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/12/new-4w3-vs-7w6-misidentifying.html
this is only a small part of the larger whole..1
Envy
Envy is supposed to be a characteristic behavior for 4s, but many 4s may not be aware of it, or even manifest it in the sense of the traditional meaning of the word "envy." So they might think that they must be sevens because of what they see as a lack of "envy" of other people. But actually, the term "envy," as used by Riso and Hudson, could be simply longing to be something that they are not, the "envy," in the sense, of the ideal. Because the type 3 is out of touch with its feeling center, and thinks that the image it constructs and projects for itself is itself, the 4w3 is someone affected by this. They may not even realize that they are the way they are because they want that image. Riso and Hudson use the word "envy" almost as a kind of term as the desire to be something other than yourself, in a way that actually makes you change your own internal identity. Only when 3s become healthy are they concerned with real authenticity in their image, and only when 4s become healthy can they accept and feel their true inner identity, unsustained by any external symbols, labels, or characterizations. |
Edited by - whitelila on 22 May 2012 10:55:35 PM |
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whitelila
Member
5130 Posts |
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slipgun
Member
USA
1583 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 11:11:47 PM
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| Those aren't 4w3s. |
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EMike583
Member
USA
1466 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 11:21:12 PM
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Ennea-type IV is a sad character; ennea-type VII is a happy character.
6w5 SP/SO |
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slipgun
Member
USA
1583 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 01:55:45 AM
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| Not necessarily. Cases in point: Boy George 4w3. Jim Morrison 7w6. |
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EMike583
Member
USA
1466 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 02:01:04 AM
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I was paraphrasing Claudio Naranjo. That's what he says about the distinction between Fours and Sevens.
6w5 SP/SO |
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Kate
Member
5931 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 02:05:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by slipgun
Not necessarily. Cases in point: Boy George 4w3. Jim Morrison 7w6.
heh Good point.
But, was Morrison a cold 7w6?
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Timo84
Member
712 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 02:38:48 AM
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| In the beginning, I thought eg Freddy Mercury had to be a 4, who is typed as a 7. I still have some problems to discern them. Also I tend to also mistake some sx-6s for 4s and the other way round. Examples, which you might not know, are german singers "Nena" and "Lena Meyer Landrut". |
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skyboy
Member
France
1293 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 04:36:16 AM
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Envy in 4s is often feeling painfully the gap between an idealized self and a negative self. When someone else stands in the way, it can lead to live envy as jealousy. Envy is directly tied to feelings shame, sadness, masochism : recurring movements of self-hatred. It's rarely expressed or understood as "envy" by 4s. It has manly consequences on behaviour as a sort of vengeance, often subtle and with unrelated targets, there is a need to have someone or something pay for the negative comparison who were felt with being hurt or feeling inferior recurrently.
"Envy" could apply to type 7 in some way like "grass is greener of the other side". This is the difficulty to sit and be satisfied with what is happening now, what they are doing now : anticipating it will be more fun another way, out there. This lead more directly to frustration and anger. Narcissism of 7s is a strategy to justify strong appetites for life : since I'm great, I deserve to have and live a lot of what I want. It's more at the top of the personality. In 4s, narcissism is more underground and like a vengeance : you're not better than me.
A example with children. The child who wants to play with his brother's toy immediately each time his brother is playing with it, is more likely to be a 7 than a 4 : it's simply seeing something else, something new, and thus it's better. A 4 frustrated to have a smaller toy could be easily convinced by "you have lesser toys, you can see it as your own value at being satisfied more easily than other children : you're not a spoilt child". The ego will feel stabilized. I see little chance to convince a 7'ego with such an argument for very long.
The feeling of self-worth is more important for the 4's ego. The desire for rich or many experiences is stronger in a 7. |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15398 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 04:46:32 AM
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This is the link that I've said over and over by these standards I would be a clear 4w3 over 7w6.
Just saying.
I don't agree with these distinctions, but that's just me.
"Emotions and idealized fantasy does not sustain them, so they cannot be refueled by it like a 4 does and keep going with it. Rather it is the pure element of mental stimulation that sustains them. That is the chief difference between a real 7 and a real 4, the stimulation-focus vs. the pleasure and escape focus. There is a much less immersive act of the 7, they are not immersing their whole soul like a 4 does. They say, 'Oh! This is awesome! This is great,' and then one disappointment and they completely loose interest for that moment, and, as one 7-winger, put it 'life s*cks' for that moment. They have absolutely no interest, no fantasy lingering, like a 4. This is the general look of them, compared to the general look of a 4." -
Yeah, I definitely come down on the 4 side of that. Don't relate to the way 7 is described here at all.
Lila, I'm actually really surprised to see you reference this website.
It's like the site's describing me when it describes 4w3. I am definitely no pragmatic realist. Ha, that's a major laugh.
It's funny that there are people who don't even see me as a 4 fixer, yet by this site I'd be 4 over 7.
"The main observable difference between 4s and 7s is in the 4's emotional longing vs. the 7's energized but shallow interest."
"The 4 will experience a real appreciation of beauty (in things, fantasy, emotions, etc.) vs. the 7's fleeting materialistic interest. This is the core difference between me 4s and 7s, because most 7s you meet will only be average health and will show this problem."
"At the end of the day, the thing that truly makes a 4, according to R&H, is the desire to be true to oneself.....7s and 7-wingers may indeed be NFs, a characteristic which has nothing innately to do with identity issues. They don't have the issues around the desire of being yourself and being understood like 4s do." -
Then all the 7's with a 4 fix I've known must've been 4's with a 7 fix. 
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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Edited by - Desdemona on 26 May 2012 05:20:45 AM |
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skyboy
Member
France
1293 Posts |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15398 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 05:09:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
Narcissism of 7s is a strategy to justify strong appetites for life : since I'm great, I deserve to have and live a lot of what I want. It's more at the top of the personality. In 4s, narcissism is more underground and like a vengeance : you're not better than me.
Skyboy, I relate more to what you're saying about 4 here than 7, ftr.
quote:
A example with children. The child who wants to play with his brother's toy immediately each time his brother is playing with it, is more likely to be a 7 than a 4 : it's simply seeing something else, something new, and thus it's better. A 4 frustrated to have a smaller toy could be easily convinced by "you have lesser toys, you can see it as your own value at being satisfied more easily than other children : you're not a spoilt child". The ego will feel stabilized. I see little chance to convince a 7'ego with such an argument for very long.
Neither of these things, though. When I was a kid, I was easily convinced to share. I didn't care all that much, really, about anyone playing with my toys, but your 4 argument wouldn't have meant anything to me either.
quote:
The feeling of self-worth is more important for the 4's ego. The desire for rich or many experiences is stronger in a 7.
Both are important to me.
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
15292 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 05:22:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
The feeling of self-worth is more important for the 4's ego. The desire for rich or many experiences is stronger in a 7.
Both are important to me.
Which is more important?
- [Stormy] |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15398 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 05:33:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
Which is more important?
Probably self-worth....but the thing is, I have a consistent sense of self-worth as it is. I'd rather have that than rich experiences without any sense of self-worth, especially since the website would discount emotional experiences in 7's quest for experiences....but I'd have to experience something extremely hurtful that smacked down my self-esteem in order to have rich experiences without a sense of self-worth, and I don't think that scenario would seem appealing to most.
However, someone did recently tell me I seem more 4w3 than 7w6 overall, in real life, and that I have no obvious anxiety. I simply can't reconcile many of the dynamics of 4 with myself.
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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Edited by - Desdemona on 26 May 2012 05:42:28 AM |
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skyboy
Member
France
1293 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 06:07:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Desdemona
Skyboy, I relate more to what you're saying about 4 here than 7, ftr.
I still believe your being a 7w6 with a 4w5 fix (more than 4w3 actually). My sensation hasn't changed from the start, even if my sensations are not always reliable.
Just out of curiosity, do you know other 7s who feel lesser in between ? What are the main reasons you chose 7 instead of 4 about yourself ?
quote:
Neither of these things, though. When I was a kid, I was easily convinced to share. I didn't care all that much, really, about anyone playing with my toys, but your 4 argument wouldn't have meant anything to me either.
This is not what I'm saying. It's not about letting others play with your toys. Anyway both 7s and 4s are rather generous. Even children. The last 7 kid I played with gave me all of his toys. But when I picked up one of these, he would let what he was doing to play with me, or sometimes take the toy from my hands. It's more like jumping on what is new. |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15398 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 11:36:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
I still believe your being a 7w6 with a 4w5 fix (more than 4w3 actually). My sensation hasn't changed from the start, even if my sensations are not always reliable.
Why 4w5 over 4w3? I've considered that, and I do feel a stronger connection to 5 than to 3, but go with 4w3 because I have more that sort of romantic flamboyance thing going on.
quote:
Just out of curiosity, do you know other 7s who feel lesser in between ? What are the main reasons you chose 7 instead of 4 about yourself ?
I don't really understand the first question.
I don't identify with 4 because I don't relate enough to the shame and envy issues, although I've also considered that I could be misunderstanding what is meant by these and failing to see these things in myself. Also, it was pointed out to me early on that my having a strong and relatively stable sense of self esteem probably would count out 4. The core issues, reaction patterns, and negative behaviors of 7 have fit over most of my life. Some of that has changed over the past year, as I've discussed elsewhere. I never would've fit the description of 7 on that website, though. It seems like a shallow description to me.
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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skyboy
Member
France
1293 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 1:21:01 PM
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It was mainly about the strong connection to 5 I said that.
quote:
I don't really understand the first question.
For example, do you know some people of type 7, that could almost not be confused with a 4w3, even with a rather superficial definition of the types. Something like that... my question wasn't especially precise.
quote:
Also, it was pointed out to me early on that my having a strong and relatively stable sense of self esteem probably would count out 4.
Yes that seems a good point. When I could see fast ups and downs in 7's self-esteem, it was in very difficult moments of their lives, when pain was inevitable. Usually self-esteem is rather stable. Ups and downs in 4's self-esteem seem to be very much self-created and a process being almost independent from life events. Do you agree with that ? |
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Desdemona
Member
USA
15398 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 2:22:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skyboy
For example, do you know some people of type 7, that could almost not be confused with a 4w3, even with a rather superficial definition of the types. Something like that... my question wasn't especially precise.
Yes, I do.
quote:
quote:
Also, it was pointed out to me early on that my having a strong and relatively stable sense of self esteem probably would count out 4.
Yes that seems a good point. When I could see fast ups and downs in 7's self-esteem, it was in very difficult moments of their lives, when pain was inevitable. Usually self-esteem is rather stable. Ups and downs in 4's self-esteem seem to be very much self-created and a process being almost independent from life events. Do you agree with that ?
I think so, yes. I believe 7's strive more to keep their self-esteem high, also. What I mean is, they will have moments of self-doubt and bad feeling towards themselves, like anyone else, but they will seek thoughts that lift them up from this, and restore their usual self-concept. If they focus on negative factors about themselves, they can easily drop down a hole self-esteem-wise, but they can't stand to feel bad about themselves for too long, and will shrug those feelings off as quickly as possible - "Meh, Nobody's perfect, and I've got a, b, and c going for me." Fours seem to often dwell on these feelings of negativity about themselves, and maybe even stoke them up.
7w6cp Sx/sp
ENFP
Dramatic/Mercurial/Adventurous/Idiosyncratic Style
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Edited by - Desdemona on 26 May 2012 2:23:33 PM |
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MH
Member
12309 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 2:34:53 PM
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quote:
but they will seek thoughts that lift them up from this, and restore their usual self-concept.
yes I think 4's also want this but that it figures into the envy and image fixation. Im not sure the stoking is intentional,just flies by the radar? |
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skyboy
Member
France
1293 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 5:28:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by May Hem
quote:
but they will seek thoughts that lift them up from this, and restore their usual self-concept.
yes I think 4's also want this but that it figures into the envy and image fixation. Im not sure the stoking is intentional,just flies by the radar?
Yes. Flies by the radar is a wonderful expression. And it's also not quite efficient to feel better usually.
I've noticed that the least presence, the more self-hating thoughts. It's like an habit. Like biting one's nail.
I'm also aware that several 4s, including myself, have a narcissistic touch. Like sending messages about their personal value. But as far as I know, it has never made me feel good. Sometimes, some introjected behaviours from the world of companies I work in, where it's a standard behaviour to say that what you do is "big" (something slightly sensationalist), are felt quite negatively by myself when I do it : somebody's going to think I'm pretentious.
Even though I noticed a drive, to "produce" (noticeably intellectually) to prove my value a bit like 3s, every question that comes in the way about self-esteem are painful and negative. Any success can turn against myself easily. For example through the idea "I was vain", "pretentious"... these thoughts are almost constantly commenting what I do. And I've never been able to know if they are true, whether they are just an habit or revealing something deeper. It feels like noise. |
Edited by - skyboy on 26 May 2012 5:34:29 PM |
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sappy
Member
1343 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 5:38:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by slipgun
Those aren't 4w3s.
Agreed.
Gwen Stefani - 7w6
Mind Freak - 7w8
Don't know the other girl.
Timo, Nena could well be a sexual six. Lena Meyer Landrut seemed like a 9w1 to me, probably sexual. She had this goofiness and innocence about her.
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Edited by - sappy on 26 May 2012 5:40:39 PM |
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4wants8
Member
3284 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 6:20:53 PM
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Gwen Stefani addressed the crowd from the stage... there's something geniunely sweet and warm about her, comforting without saccharinity. Warmly slightly forceful sans witchiness. I remember wondering if she didn't have 2w1 in her fix, and thinking that she had the aura of a great kindergarten teacher.
"We are the sum of all the people we’ve ever met." |
Edited by - 4wants8 on 26 May 2012 6:22:15 PM |
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BADMAN
Member
7956 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 7:48:25 PM
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I'd say that both fours and sevens have a sense of personal uniqueness...but fours think it's something they have to suffer for.
quote:
Jim Morrison 7w6.
One of them weird typings from typewatch. Morrison is a pretty blatant sp/sx 4w3.
By the way...slipgun meet sappy your 9w1 enneatwin.
the slam dunk skunk...
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sunny
Member
USA
9439 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 7:59:37 PM
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Yep. I agree Morrison is a 4/3sp/sx.
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Edited by - sunny on 26 May 2012 8:00:32 PM |
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Timo84
Member
712 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 8:21:25 PM
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| Sappy, with Nena you could be right, with "Lena" I don't think so. The underlying current in her interviews are being naive, insecure and going into sarcasm and irony. That's not what I know from 9s, although I feel somehow anger in her, but more as a connection to the 1. Well, we don't know, it's hard to pin people down on one type sometimes. |
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Timo84
Member
712 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 06:53:20 AM
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| Another example might be the comedian Arj Barker. He seems more 6w7 but also has something very 4w3. |
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4w3 vs. 7w6 - Misidentifying
